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everythingWasBees posted:There are plenty of ways to tell the story that don't rely on child labor though is the thing. There might be a narrative reason, but there are also plenty of other good alternatives that don't rely on it. There literally isn't. The main character herself is a child doing labor and it loving sucks for her too. That's the conceit of the story. There's a difference between when the author contrives a situation so that it becomes ok for the main character to have slaves and the reader never has to worry about the ethics because there's a magical reason for it, and when the author creates this situation specifically for the main character to be troubled by and do everything within her power to mitigate the situation.
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Apr 29, 2020 17:22
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This was the post that started the whole discussion:esselfortium posted:The whole Main having orphan child slaves thing has soured me on Bookworm really badly. Like, it's clearly trying to present it as her doing something magnanimous but meanwhile she's just telling them "you don't work, you don't eat" and watching some poor desperate kid apologize for getting at her for forgetting to let him eat for a few days, and even after realizing he's starving she still makes him clean out a multi-story complex for her to live in before letting him finally have some drat food. And then after Main and Lutz scold the uppity orphans we get cutaways of a carefree Main smiling happily about how fun and happy her life is now. It's really awful and tonedeaf, I hate these characters now. Also, the recurring plot points about girls around Main's age wanting to become concubines is extremely creepy. I don't remember exactly how old the orphan slave girl is who wanted to become the ancient gray-haired priest's concubine and kept talking about "putting her womanly charms" on people, but uh. UH. The first season of this was pretty charming but it's taken a sharp and unexpected turn into something seriously unpleasant. and it was met by a full-throated defense that came across as trying to negate their criticism or dismiss it as wrong.
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Apr 29, 2020 17:23
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Even in this thread the dismissive defenses sound so convoluted and miserable that it's just convincing me further that bookworm merits removal.
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Apr 29, 2020 17:28
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Everything Burrito posted:This was the post that started the whole discussion: I’m sorry some posts in a different thread were bad, I guess?
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Apr 29, 2020 17:30
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Sharkopath posted:Even in this thread the dismissive defenses sound so convoluted and miserable that it's just convincing me further that bookworm merits removal. I mean, I don't have a stake in this fight, but maybe the decision about whether it merits removal should be made based on the actual show, by someone who has seen it, not based on the skill of how well people defend it on the internet?
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Apr 29, 2020 17:33
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Bremen posted:I mean, I don't have a stake in this fight, but maybe the decision about whether it merits removal should be made based on the actual show, by someone who has seen it, not based on the skill of how well people defend it on the internet? I checked with the council of elders and they decided No.
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Apr 29, 2020 17:34
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All Hail the Wise Elders, Without Whom We Would Be Lost.
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Apr 29, 2020 17:35
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Bremen posted:I mean, I don't have a stake in this fight, but maybe the decision about whether it merits removal should be made based on the actual show, by someone who has seen it, not based on how people comment about it on the internet? I mean I feel like just judging from Essel's post, which seems like a pretty fair read of the situation and pretty non-biased considering that they loved the first season, it would merit removal of it from this thread.
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Apr 29, 2020 17:35
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nrook posted:I’m sorry some posts in a different thread were bad, I guess? Hi thanks for also being dismissive of what I've been trying to say 
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Apr 29, 2020 17:35
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To be honest I haven’t kept up on the anime but it generally had a much cheerier tone in comparison to either the original work or the manga adaptation. It sounds like that bit it in the rear end once the story got darker.
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Apr 29, 2020 17:39
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in addition to for slavery reasons I'm going to remove this series from this thread for being boring as poo poo and being weird about having children seducing priests but primarily being boring as poo poo everybody was determined to take this as a value judgment so I'm making a value judgment! The council of elders is backing me my word is law
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Apr 29, 2020 17:42
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It's too boring for a thread that has ".hack" in the title?
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Apr 29, 2020 17:43
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darkgray posted:It's too boring for a thread that has ".hack" in the title? don't you loving talk about .hack like that
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Apr 29, 2020 17:44
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The incredibly slow and molasses pacing of sign helps support the narrative, furthermore
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Apr 29, 2020 17:45
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everythingWasBees posted:in addition to for slavery reasons I'm going to remove this series from this thread for being boring as poo poo and being weird about having children seducing priests but primarily being boring as poo poo First they came for the incel hero,
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Apr 29, 2020 17:51
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Bring on the ten pages of the breastfeeding isekai discussion.
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Apr 29, 2020 17:51
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I've consumed so much of this trash that my goalposts have shifted. I kept my mouth shut originally because of that, but I still feel like it's an overreaction to shut out a series because it categorically has some aspect of slavery in the world. It looks like it's a done deal but I still want to bitch about the genre so allow me to shitpost. Let's contrast this to how slavery comes up in a lot of other isekais: 1. "I guess slavery's a thing and this catgirl is fine with it. Oh well, it can't be helped. I'm Japanese and I can't rock the boat. Also, this dick isn't going to suck itself! Slow life!" 2. This story is so metal there's slaves a poo poo. They're all dirty and stuff. Edgy. 3. "My cheat skill can be shared with everybody that enters an S&M contract with me. But I'm a well-behaved Japanese man so I certainly wouldn't make these girls do anything bad and I'll just be a dense harem protagonist instead." You can usually tell you're getting one of these because the main character on the cover is wearing a fancy, black trenchcoat and within the first three chapters. Not always: I had a sad case of #3 happen 30 chapters into something off of novelupdates. That was the end of that! Shittily enough, having the protagonist be a girl dodges those bullets at a risk of others because it shifts the subgenre. Now you're dealing this otome, saintess stuff where the protagonist makes evil/miasma disappear by, like, existing ("men do, women are") or something. She is fawned over by an army (literally) of men with girl-life faces, one of which is the Xth prince, another secretly has built a bird cage in his basement to keep her in, and another totally isn't a slave but has taken a knee and vowed some kind of fealty. The setting instead is very... mediocre. The world is lovely but not metal lovely. The protagonist's agency to fix it is low. Mynie/Main even has a passive lady's power, but it's solving as many problems as its creating. I'd come down a lot harder on it if it was a setting where slavery was crammed in sideways for the author's fulfillment. I will concede taking points off for cramming it into the setting regardless, but what I gathered was neither Mynie nor the slaves were totally fine with the social order, which is pretty different for cases #1 and #3. #2 doesn't count because that's some dude making smut. I'll take this back when they finally make a "I Was General Sherman and Got Reincarnated as a Communist Abolitionist of Bullshitworld. Let's March to the Sea!" (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 29, 2020 17:58
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You know all this has done is make me more curious to read it so, y'know, good job everyone...?
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Apr 29, 2020 18:04
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milkies
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Apr 29, 2020 18:04
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I'm just surprised it took 76 pages for this thread to start imploding.
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Apr 29, 2020 18:05
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Siegkrow posted:You know all this has done is make me more curious to read it so, y'know, good job everyone...? Its real boring mostly honestlike. If you accept that as a challenge then so be it.
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Apr 29, 2020 18:06
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Guyver posted:I'm just surprised it took 76 pages for this thread to start imploding. ...which is better than most isekais!
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Apr 29, 2020 18:07
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Bring on the ten pages of the breastfeeding isekai discussion. I wish I could actually contribute more to a discussion of the manga that will not be named, but even with the current intrigue there's not a lot to be said about it. Everything is fairly straightforward.  The worldbuilding is still consistently good. Rocko Bonaparte posted:...which is better than most isekais!
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Apr 29, 2020 18:12
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Dryzen posted:milkies
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Apr 29, 2020 18:13
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If you post about that comic I won't tell if you won't tell.
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Apr 29, 2020 18:13
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Brought To You By posted:I wish I could actually contribute more to a discussion of the manga that will not be named, but even with the current intrigue there's not a lot to be said about it. Everything is fairly straightforward. no it's okay shinju no nectar posting is allowed now that's what you got in exchange for bookworm
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Apr 29, 2020 18:14
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just don't be super coy and weird about the breastfeeding like last time
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Apr 29, 2020 18:14
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I will agree to disagree wrt Bookworm but I will also say that "replacing" it with another isekai series with unsavory elements as though there is some great balance that must be upheld seems a little disingenuous
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Apr 29, 2020 18:15
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blizzardvizard posted:I will agree to disagree wrt Bookworm but I will also say that "replacing" it with another isekai series with unsavory elements as though there is some great balance that must be upheld seems a little disingenuous no I am very genuine about encouraging shinju no nectar chat in this thread
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Apr 29, 2020 18:17
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This thread is the lynchpin that holds the metaphysical realm together. Balance is the prime directive. If you disregard me it will be too late to fix it by the time you realize your mistake.
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Apr 29, 2020 18:18
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The original post's criticism of bookworm is bad because they're not even slaves, she pays them and has no legal ownership of them. It may be child labor, but it's not really exploitative and focuses not just on feeding and housing them but also educating them and teaching them a valuable trade skill. Early Bookworm has heavy themes about class divides, cultural gaps, and inequality. It takes a more realistic look at medieval-ish society than the vast majority of series, and surprise, medieval times sucked poo poo. There's a difference between being exploitative or fetishistic and actually trying to tackle serious issues through fiction, and it kind of seems like people have gotten so used to isekai stuff being the former that they're lashing out at series that try to be the latter? I'm sorry people were offended by having a fantasy world be a bit poo poo instead of being an idealized paradise without conflict. everythingWasBees posted:in addition to for slavery reasons I'm going to remove this series from this thread for being boring as poo poo i will fight u IRL
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Apr 29, 2020 18:20
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New update You've all lost your detail privileges so I'm not telling you what it is though. 
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Apr 29, 2020 18:20
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esselfortium posted:The whole Main having orphan child slaves thing has soured me on Bookworm really badly. Like, it's clearly trying to present it as her doing something magnanimous but meanwhile she's just telling them "you don't work, you don't eat" and watching some poor desperate kid apologize for getting at her for forgetting to let him eat for a few days, and even after realizing he's starving she still makes him clean out a multi-story complex for her to live in before letting him finally have some drat food. And then after Main and Lutz scold the uppity orphans we get cutaways of a carefree Main smiling happily about how fun and happy her life is now. It's really awful and tonedeaf, I hate these characters now. Also, the recurring plot points about girls around Main's age wanting to become concubines is extremely creepy. I don't remember exactly how old the orphan slave girl is who wanted to become the ancient gray-haired priest's concubine and kept talking about "putting her womanly charms" on people, but uh. UH. The first season of this was pretty charming but it's taken a sharp and unexpected turn into something seriously unpleasant. Okay, here's the thing. Essel's post is actually about a different thing. Essel is talking about the situation in a *previous* episode - wrt Gil specifically. But the point of that episode is that Main is *loving up*. Main is actually disturbed by the idea of having retainers, which is why she ignores them, which isn't helped by the fact that they hate her. Thus, in her ignorance, Gil suffers because retainers eat leftovers and if there is no leftovers there's nothing to eat, and Main's "well if you hate me then you can just go back to the orphanage" is built on the assumption that orphanages are like modern orphanages, not basically a death camp for kids. The point though is that the show goes out of the way to juxtapose Main's blissful ignorance (since in theory, she has secured everything she wanted at the start of the series) with the suffering she is causing - the fact that Main is unlikeable in her carefreeness is the intention. The subsequent episode is about the extent to which both of the orphans have rationalised and accepted the situation, the extent to which the authorities oppose doing anything, and Main's heroism is that her conscience does not allow her to do so, hence the trick with making all the orphans her retainers. We will I assume see later how this turns out, and whether she has to bend the system further. Now, it's true that the second season has made a fair departure from the first in terms of confronting the darker side of this society, how easy it is to ignorantly uphold it and what needs to be done to get rid of it. This is necessarily uncomfortable, but that's the story, about confronting societal injustice and trying to find ways to resolve it from a position of very limited power and starting from apathy. You can call this new story unpleasant, or unwholesome, you can prefer if the entire story is about the protagonist baking cakes and reading books in a happy world but I think it is important to be clear what the story actually is here. If this thread is about isekai that don't address difficult topics, don't have drama, and never let the protagonist do a bad thing then okay. Fangz fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Apr 29, 2020 |
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Apr 29, 2020 18:21
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everythingWasBees posted:no it's okay shinju no nectar posting is allowed now that's what you got in exchange for bookworm  Much like 'The Wrong way to use Healing Magic', 'Ride-on King' takes some of the tropes I usually roll my eyes at in other Isekai and makes them palatable. This round included the kingdom building aspects as well as innovations in agriculture. Avoiding the meme that is crop rotation and instead doubling down on using magic in innovative ways owing to a heretical mage and existing devices. Which does wonders. everythingWasBees posted:just don't be super coy and weird about the breastfeeding like last time
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Apr 29, 2020 18:21
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Sharkopath posted:Its real boring mostly honestlike. If you accept that as a challenge then so be it. I’m not sure I’m able to judge what’s boring, I think my favorite manga these days is the one that’s just a deep dive on the troubles of being a postal worker in a fantasy world
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Apr 29, 2020 18:23
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Mors Rattus posted:I’m not sure I’m able to judge what’s boring, I think my favorite manga these days is the one that’s just a deep dive on the troubles of being a postal worker in a fantasy world That one's super interesting and the author is very well read and researched so its more like an extrapolation on the history of the medieval to early modern world filtered through a fantasy lens. https://mangadex.org/chapter/872334/32 The new chapter of Wolf is brutal and I want to see where it's going.
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Apr 29, 2020 18:24
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Holy poo poo for my apparent low standards and shitposting on the genre, I noped out of that nectar series after a few pages and a long ponder of the title. So... that's what happened in the series.
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Apr 29, 2020 18:24
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Sharkopath posted:That one's super interesting and the author is very well read and researched so its more like an extrapolation on the history of the medieval to early modern world filtered through a fantasy lens. Oh it is real good and well researched, I agree I just, like, I legitimately can’t tell any more when the poo poo I like is boring to other people because the answer appears to be hella random I want more people to just do manga that are deep dives on a thing they know a lot about
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Apr 29, 2020 18:26
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One thing I really like about Wolf is that the stranger from a strange land vibe is very integral to the story, Lecan is a very strong and accomplished person on his own merit before getting sucked into a different fantasy world but the specifics and basics of the new world differ so much that he can't take anything for granted. Normally I hate the very staid 'heres how magic works' breakdown sort of scene but since its a more lively back and forth discussion comparing and contrasting how things were in his old life it's much easier for me to get past.
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Apr 29, 2020 18:32
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Welcome to the Adventurer's Guild! You start as rank F. The ranks go from F to A, and then there's the super-special S-rank that you'll be at within 10 chapters. Over here is the brawny guy that's going to call you a kid in a second. Just kick his add and trigger the plot where he'll try to make you look bad in the dungeon. That should get you up to rank C.
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Apr 29, 2020 18:37
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