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Wait I thought yall liked owod why are you trying to push that guy away from it?
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Apr 29, 2020 01:51
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Nessus posted:Yeah Haight is great as a Werewolf antagonist, and there's even some logic to the idea of him becoming a mage, and then also a werewolf. You could even, if you wanted, use Haight to examine Garou privilege in how even if you tribe isn't a giant dick about it to Kinfolk and you're one of the ones who is treated well there's still the fact that the stories of the Garou doing things are just going to be more impressive than a Kinfolk and they'll never be able to do what a werewolf can.
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Apr 29, 2020 01:56
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Dawgstar posted:More like Badasshtray, amirite Probably my favorite part of that whole dumb character is being soulforged into an ashtray. And possibly ejected into oblivion I think? The point is, Sam Haight is exactly the stupid oWoD nonsense I appreciate.
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Apr 29, 2020 02:09
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I Am Just a Box posted:Book of the Fallen M20 is not particularly interested in crossover. It's much more interested in thematic whiplash, as Satyros Phil Brucato beats you over the head with the banality of evil and tries to make Nephandi stories tie into real issues of abuse and neglect while also still filling half the book with +1 swords of black lightning and shock troops riding saddled oozes of pure evil. It's a very different authorial voice from Book of the Wyrm W20, which threaded that needle much more deftly. Interesting, thanks for telling me. I had Path of Screams on my To Buy List as well so I guess I'll get that instead.
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Apr 29, 2020 02:44
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I made sure to jam a Samuel Haight joke into the chickencheese thread when it came by Trad Games, I couldn't think of anything more fitting for a traveling abomination that breaks all the rules of good decency.
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Apr 29, 2020 02:52
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Which Tradition books would you recommend? Like, which Traditions are most popular and why? In a Magechat elsewhere somebody said some Traditions are interesting and others are just embarrassing aspects of the 90s.
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Apr 29, 2020 05:26
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In Revised, the really good Tradition books are: Sons of Ether Akashic Brotherhood Euthanatos The decent ones are: Dreamspeakers Celestial Chorus The middling-to-bad are: Order of Hermes (the 1e version is really good if you can get it) Cult of Ecstacy The unrelentingly awful ones are: Verbena Virtual Adepts Hollow Ones (The Virtual Adepts and Verbena are crippled because they have never been well-written, ever, in the history of the gameline.)
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Apr 29, 2020 05:40
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:who are you thinking of in particular That's be the Alienated, the entente of archmasters who believe that poo poo went bad when humanity deposed the old gods of the supernal and seek to re-enshrine them as supreme lords of the platonic realm. One tangential thing I dig about them is that the book is real clear that a lot of archmasters are often WAY more powerful than the sorry state the few remaining gods of supernal realms are, so they're less like servants to dread Cthulhu and more, idk, cosmic life coaches? who ascend along with their chosen god and therefore become a permanent part of them? idk it's weird. Anyway Imperial Mysteries writes up The Old Gods of the Thistle, the OG rulers of supernal-Arcadia, and their couple of paragraphs lines up perfectly with Equinox Road's full download on the True Fae. So it's pretty likely that any former-Acanthus Alienated would be in league with, if not actively trying to exalt and empower, beings who are maybe-kinda-probably True Fae. They never have, and probably never will, come down on the relationship between Changeling-Arcadia and Supernal-Arcadia, but as written an Alienated Archmaster working with a True Fae would be completely textual if your group interprets those realms as one in the same. Otherwise they're just all about giving unlimited power over phenomenological reality to beings who are the platonic ideal that True Fae are merely shadows on the wall imitating, which... is not better
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Apr 29, 2020 06:00
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Rand Brittain posted:In Revised, the really good Tradition books are: I never heard of Hollow Ones before, even in passing. It does look like a lot of folks hate them. Although, looking them up, I found this comment on Reddit: quote:Previous editions made it clear EVERY mage knows this. It's also the Heremtic paradigm as they believe all the ritual, focus, and so on is to channel willpower as the basis of all magic. It's only in Revised they moved it more to "every mage but oracles are wrong." The problem with that is the Hollow Ones are a living argument against this and they never updated them on that. This is what I was getting at earlier, I apparently need to research more of the various Editions of Mage. I don't know about the other lines but it looks like each edition of Mage changes stuff in the world and how things work. And thanks for the list.
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Apr 29, 2020 06:40
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Digital Osmosis posted:That's be the Alienated, the entente of archmasters who believe that poo poo went bad when humanity deposed the old gods of the supernal and seek to re-enshrine them as supreme lords of the platonic realm. One tangential thing I dig about them is that the book is real clear that a lot of archmasters are often WAY more powerful than the sorry state the few remaining gods of supernal realms are, so they're less like servants to dread Cthulhu and more, idk, cosmic life coaches? who ascend along with their chosen god and therefore become a permanent part of them? idk it's weird. Anyway Imperial Mysteries writes up The Old Gods of the Thistle, the OG rulers of supernal-Arcadia, and their couple of paragraphs lines up perfectly with Equinox Road's full download on the True Fae. So it's pretty likely that any former-Acanthus Alienated would be in league with, if not actively trying to exalt and empower, beings who are maybe-kinda-probably True Fae. They never have, and probably never will, come down on the relationship between Changeling-Arcadia and Supernal-Arcadia, but as written an Alienated Archmaster working with a True Fae would be completely textual if your group interprets those realms as one in the same. Neither is good for anybody
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Apr 29, 2020 06:45
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NikkolasKing posted:I never heard of Hollow Ones before, even in passing. It does look like a lot of folks hate them. Hollow Ones are basically "90s mall goths with magic powers." They were pretty darn dumb even when 90s goth culture was at its peak and they're completely ridiculous now that that wave has come and gone. Were I in charge, their place in the setting would be replaced by Tumblr magic users who cast spells invoking quadrants and patron trolls and yelling about Pree Aesma.
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Apr 29, 2020 06:46
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Rand Brittain posted:Hollow Ones are basically "90s mall goths with magic powers." They were pretty darn dumb even when 90s goth culture was at its peak and they're completely ridiculous now that that wave has come and gone.
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Apr 29, 2020 06:59
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Nessus posted:I think the general idea of them would probably be better served by - you're gonna hate this, you're probably going to take a literal point of aggravated damage as it activates the OPP property elements in your soul so I'm gonna spoiler it: making them literal chaos magicians like Grant Morrison except it works and they are not successful comic book writers That's basically how they were described on Reddit quote:In practice almost all Hollow Ones are orphans who get mix and match things from the internet, library, and personal meaning. A typical Hollow One's foci would be:
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Apr 29, 2020 07:13
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That's basically what I mean. The 2020 equivalent of "90s mall goth, but wizard" is "self-declared disaster gay, but wizard."
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Apr 29, 2020 07:40
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Also from that Hollow Ones Reddit threadquote:In the early 2000s, there was a backlash against rebellious groups like the Anarchs, Hollow Ones, Traditions as a whole, and so on. It took the War on Terror, financial crisis, and so on to get a sense of "gently caress the Man" back into fan's hearts. quote:Remember playing Mage back in college, and there was a significant amount of love for Technocracy. "The Guide to the Technocracy" also didn't hurt the fan base. You got to play Elon Musk before Musk was cool. quote:Yeah, there was a big swing to how awesome it was to play THE MAN and being big technophiles. The Guide to the Technocracy was pretty balanced about it but the Revised Convention books went "The Technocracy did nothhhinnnng wrong!" and were terrible. I honestly enjoy hearing about how the fandom and franchise have evolved over the years. It's as fascinating as anything in the franchise itself.
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Apr 29, 2020 07:54
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The issue is that they're not Chaos Magicians because they don't recognize that their practices aren't inherently meaningful, as I understand it? Like, all mages in Old Mage are chaos magicians wearing various hats, in practice. Also, the Old Gods of Thistle are 1e content, and I believe it's been stated about 2e that the True Fae are not the same as the OGoT, so as to not cause the lines to crash together messily. Overall though the Alienated are great, especially the metaphysical knots they need to tie themselves in to explain how the weird Bound god they're trying to reinstate in Heaven will turn back into Athena or Mithras when raised up, despite being another CoD horror deity on the ground floor, so to speak. And they could be right! Gods are very different as symbolic structures than they are as living, hungry things torn from Heaven.
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Apr 29, 2020 07:55
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That does seems kind of familiar -- do you happen to remember where that was said? Does that mean the 2E canon is that Faercadia and Supernarcadia are in fact different places, and not "shrug emoji, do what's right for your game?" I think Dave said here somewhere that the Hedge is like, the transition place to the astral. Like if you could walk around and have adventures inside the gauntlet, right? But wouldn't that just sort of further complicate the question, turning "are there two arcadias or not" into "are there two arcadias but the fallen one is a particularly hard to reach Temenos realm"? Also, the best Alienated bit is one of their plot hooks -- when people Ascend they often completely remove all traces themselves from reality. One of the Alienated plot hooks is that one of them managed to Ascend in the 70s in union with Mithras, who had previously been the main god of western Europe and all the temples and political history that the Mithras cult were part of turned into a void, caused by archmaster and Mithras being written out of phenomenological reality, that was filled in by Christianity. Digital Osmosis fucked around with this message at 08:18 on Apr 29, 2020 |
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Apr 29, 2020 08:14
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Joe Slowboat posted:The issue is that they're not Chaos Magicians because they don't recognize that their practices aren't inherently meaningful, as I understand it? Like, all mages in Old Mage are chaos magicians wearing various hats, in practice.
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Apr 29, 2020 08:18
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Digital Osmosis posted:That does seems kind of familiar -- do you happen to remember where that was said? Does that mean the 2E canon is that Faercadia and Supernarcadia are in fact different places, and not "shrug emoji, do what's right for your game?" I believe it's explicitly word of Dave that the two Arcadias are, indeed, two Arcadias (not least because the Supernal Arcadia would annihilate your physical form if you were a Changeling and interacting with it would cause time and fate in the phenomenal world to go berserk - the Supernal metaphysics of 2e don't allow for them to be the same). Also I think there's a general position that it's generally better if one line doesn't have a more effective framework for interacting with the other line's most important otherworld, so the default 'canon' is Not The Same Arcadia. You can always do whatever even if canon is against you, since canon is a paper tiger.
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Apr 29, 2020 08:27
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Yes, in 2e Mage and Changeling, (which now have the same line Developer, so she should have a much easier time getting writers to obey it than I did) the two Arcadias are entirely different, and the Hedge is the Astral Barrier, the Gauntlet-equivalent between dreams and the Oneiros. Imperial Mysteries predates the big overhaul to the Supernal as a setting element in second edition. And I invented the Gods of Thistle. But kill your darlings.
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Apr 29, 2020 09:35
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I continue my exploration of the oWoD fandom. Apparently once upon a time there was a great war between the Mage 2nd and Revised Edition fandoms. I even found some old threads on RPGnet from over a decade ago. It's really hard to learn names of writers or figures of note. Brucato is a name I hear spoken with derision on here but it seems like everyone loves Mage 20 and he did that? I dunno, from the rough summaries in Mage 20 and from what I've been able to piece together, Revised sounds interesting to me. I'm reading some of Mage 1e just for curiosity's sake but apparently it was mostly ignored in later editions I'm told. They just took some of the better ides and dumped the rest. Certainly the differences between 1e and M20 are very obvious very soon. 20 has a layer of irony over everything - "it's all lies, including what you're reading" - while 1e presents Traditions as heroic freedom fighters who would never force anything on anyone, even if the masses choose the Technocracy.
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Apr 29, 2020 14:03
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NikkolasKing posted:I continue my exploration of the oWoD fandom. Revised was widely hated, because it took some elements that people considered a core feature of Mage and changed or dumped them. Ventures to Umbra were made much more difficult because of the Avatar Storm, Paradox was more powerful, the Technocracy and Traditions have lost their arch masters making them much more decentralized than they were, etc. This is one of the core features of the metaplot – every now and then there is an upheaval that shakes the status quo. I have never seen a setting that was made better and I've seen plenty where it take away some things that would made it unique – like withdrawal of the Theran Empire from Barsaive in Earthdawn, or the Faction War and its aftermath in Planescape. Not to mention it pisses off the GMs that already made their campaign revolve around the chanted stuff and can either change it to fit the new paradigm, or just acknowledge that for them the supplements end there.
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Apr 29, 2020 14:16
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NikkolasKing posted:everyone loves Mage 20  It is easily the worst 20th anniversary book, hands down.
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Apr 29, 2020 14:17
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Lord_Hambrose posted:
Really? I was going off Reddit threads that said to read it when asked which edition of Mage to use. I thought everything 20th Edition was beloved, or at least preferred to previous editions. Gantolandon posted:Revised was widely hated, because it took some elements that people considered a core feature of Mage and changed or dumped them. Ventures to Umbra were made much more difficult because of the Avatar Storm, Paradox was more powerful, the Technocracy and Traditions have lost their arch masters making them much more decentralized than they were, etc. Well that does make sense. Although I've always read that a lot of gamers just ignore metaplots anyway., regardless of game or edition.
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Apr 29, 2020 14:23
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NikkolasKing posted:I dunno, from the rough summaries in Mage 20 and from what I've been able to piece together, Revised sounds interesting to me. I'm reading some of Mage 1e just for curiosity's sake but apparently it was mostly ignored in later editions I'm told. They just took some of the better ides and dumped the rest. Certainly the differences between 1e and M20 are very obvious very soon. 20 has a layer of irony over everything - "it's all lies, including what you're reading" - while 1e presents Traditions as heroic freedom fighters who would never force anything on anyone, even if the masses choose the Technocracy. Revised was an interesting premise told badly. "Focus on changing your world for the better and not fighting a war you already lost" Is a good message, but the previous edition stressed how fighting the Ascension War was rad as heck, fighting Technocracy cyborgs on the decks of weird airships deep in the solar system with Pluto coming up on the horizon. Having the new setting reinforce you couldn't do that and should instead open a soup kitchen did not really appeal to a lot of long-time fans. All of the Revised lines did their best to streamline the splat in question and also lean harder on 'your splat's end is right around the corner' but only in MageRev did it feel like something was taken away. You could still vamp and woof like nothing had happened, but Mage told you that your biggest avenue for exploration was not only shut down it might kill you if you tried. Mage Revised also really suffered from having to change lead developers halfway through. Jesse Henig stepped down for reasons I either never knew or forgot and was replaced by Bill Bridges, who worked on Werewolf's second edition and there was an almost immediate change in quality. You had a lot of good-to-great books coming out in Revised, particularly the splatbooks, but that all went south culminating in Verbena which might be the worst splatbook I've ever read. They had been playing with stereotypes in the Traditions and expanding them, liking having atheist members of the Chorus or ecstatic Christians in the, well, Ecstatics and then Bridges took over and they tried a hard 180 back to 2E's status quo but the damage had been done and nobody was really happy. Mage 20 is irritating because even as you've spent time with the Nine (or ten) Traditions and learning what colossal screw ups they are Brucato then throws them under the bus for the ACTUAL new good guys in the setting who are totally fine, no really.
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Apr 29, 2020 14:28
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NikkolasKing posted:Really? I was going off Reddit threads that said to read it when asked which edition of Mage to use. Both of these are true. Mage 20 is the only book I strongly disliked because it is such a huge chunk of trash, but at the same time it is all the rules in one place. You want to read a good book? Wraith 20. Perfection.
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Apr 29, 2020 14:28
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Lord_Hambrose posted:Both of these are true. Mage 20 is the only book I strongly disliked because it is such a huge chunk of trash, but at the same time it is all the rules in one place. Also Changeling 20 is great, and not just because it's not the first two editions of the game.
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Apr 29, 2020 14:30
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Nessus posted:I think the general idea of them would probably be better served by - you're gonna hate this, you're probably going to take a literal point of aggravated damage as it activates the OPP property elements in your soul so I'm gonna spoiler it: making them literal chaos magicians like Grant Morrison except it works and they are not successful comic book writers Incidentally, if you want to play a chaos magician in Scion, that’s probably gonna be possible, as long as all the traditions I included for Sorcerers survive redlines, which I see no reason to believe otherwise about. E: I also put in onmyoji, Goetic demon summoning and using mystic drugs to project your soul out, possibly in the form of an astral bear. Mors Rattus fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Apr 29, 2020 |
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Apr 29, 2020 14:58
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NikkolasKing posted:Really? I was going off Reddit threads that said to read it when asked which edition of Mage to use. If you decide to play/run Ascension, print out the Foci system in Mage 20 to use with a better core book (Revised or Sorcerer's Crusade IMO). It's the only legitimately good design the line has gotten since Revised. It is great for helping players build a paradigm from the foundation of a belief system and matching it to practices and instruments. Under no circumstances should you read "How Do You Do That!?" since it is hella confusing and cuts against Sphere principles that have been in the game in every prior edition. I went into that book thinking I could run Ascension and afterwards resolving to only ever run Awakening 2e. If you decide to use M20, get the quickstart. It has a better paradox chart, and a very simple core rules section. Pair it with a better sphere system like the one in Revised or Sorcerers Crusade. Octavo fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Apr 29, 2020 |
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Apr 29, 2020 16:49
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Octavo posted:If you decide to play/run Ascension, print out the Foci system in Mage 20 to use with a better core book (Revised or Sorcerer's Crusade IMO). It's the only legitimately good design the line has gotten since Revised. It is great for helping players build a paradigm from the foundation of a belief system and matching it to practices and instruments. Under no circumstances should you read "How Do You Do That!?" since it is hella confusing and cuts against Sphere principles that have been in the game in every prior edition. I went into that book thinking I could run Ascension and afterwards resolving to only ever run Awakening 2e. I'm pretty much just a lore fan but I'll keep that in mind. Thank you. Sorcerer's Crusade has interested me since I love history and SC basically mirrors the real life philosophical battles that happened around this time. (I stand with the Neoplatonists) But somebody elsewhere just brought up a good point on this very topic. SC is cool as the Renaissance with Magic but it doesn't really make sense as Mage's Renaissance. Consensus is one of Mage's most distinct features and we're told our modern world is because Consensus turned against magic. Conversely, several hundred years ago, Mage Europe should have resembled a High Fantasy setting with dragons and people flying everywhere, shouldn't it?
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Apr 29, 2020 17:09
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SC does propose mystical Arts as having an easier time of it, but it's set after the turning point where magical stuff starts to fade out. And in any case "oMage reality is based on what people believe" is only true in the sense where "reality" and "people" and "believe" are all fairly opaque vocabulary words which are never concretely explained. The M20 focus system is at best a sideways step.
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Apr 29, 2020 17:46
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Dawgstar posted:Also Changeling 20 is great, and not just because it's not the first two editions of the game. Care to elaborate on this a bit? CtD was my all time favorite as a literal child, but I feel like CtL does everything so much better. I grabbed Dreaming 20 when it was free on DriveThrough but haven't really perused it much. Someone here said that they redefined Banality as "anything that takes away your joy" and that seems like a smart move -- what are the other headline differences that make it smarter or more playable than the first two editions? Dave, not to get into a whole death-of-the-author thing but what was your intention when writing the Old Gods of the Thistle then? Was it operating under 1E's "maybe they're the same" and a cute wink to that, which is now obviated by 2E's canonical "no they're not," or was there something else you were getting at, like supernal / fallen rhyming? I also find it interesting that you put the Hedge specifically in the barrier between dreams and the Oneiros. It makes sense I guess with Lost 2E's ability to slip between dreams and the hedge but a lot of the trope-y stuff in Lost smells of the Temenos to me. On the other hand I do remember Lost 2E was moving away from talecrafting and the like and more into a "the Fae's rules are story-shaped because they just are / because fairy tales were modeled after them." And lastly, if the Hedge is the Astral barrier, is there an official word on what Arcadia is? Just like, a deeper part of the Hedge and therefore still in the barrier? Somewhere else weirder? Up to the storyteller to decide? This is now making me want to brainstorm a fansplat whose otherworld is the gauntlet.
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Apr 29, 2020 17:47
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NikkolasKing posted:(I stand with the Neoplatonists) Not sure if you've checked out nMage yet but if you hadn't and were totally unaware magic explicitly works on platonic lines and literally every Mage faction, maybe except the completely insane ones, agree on this -- they just care about vastly different platonic ideals. The most radical group is the Free Counsel, a PC-faction that has the temerity to that maybe human activity can affect platonic truth instead of the relationship being exclusively the other way.
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Apr 29, 2020 17:52
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Digital Osmosis posted:Not sure if you've checked out nMage yet but if you hadn't and were totally unaware magic explicitly works on platonic lines and literally every Mage faction, maybe except the completely insane ones, agree on this -- they just care about vastly different platonic ideals. The most radical group is the Free Counsel, a PC-faction that has the temerity to that maybe human activity can affect platonic truth instead of the relationship being exclusively the other way. Yes I am vaguely familiar with that aspect of nMage. It was interesting and nMage is by far my fave CoD line. I just haven't read as much about it as oMage because I like most everything oWoD more. I dunno, I just prefer oWoD and most of its lines. I dunno why exactly. Given I'm a 40k fan, maybe I just like grimdark. In a separate WW thread elsewhere they were talking about how the CoD Vampire Clans are portrayed a lot more sympathetically than the Vamp Clans in oWoD. The world isn't as hosed in Chronicles of Darkness, apparently.
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Apr 29, 2020 18:01
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That's an interesting assessment - I would consider the oWoD to generally be more hopeful than their nWoD counterparts. Humans are a big important deal in the oWoD, and our salvation is an open issue - while all of the game lines have an impending day of reckoning, they also imagine some ancient breach of faith which might be repaired, and some bygone or possible future era of reconciliation between humanity and whatever - God, Gaia, ourselves, etc. Even Vampire imagines a crawling, incremental process towards some sort of justice - possibly a much-deserved punishment, admittedly. Outside of some more soteriological elements in nMage, Chronicles doesn't really imagine any sort of justice or reason behind the alien and inhospitable world and humanity. The world's just hostile and full of terrors. Being a Requiem vampire isn't about seeking one single moment of forgiveness or poetic justice in the weary final nights of the world, it's about managing an addiction every night for the rest of forever.
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Apr 29, 2020 18:16
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Five Eyes posted:That's an interesting assessment - I would consider the oWoD to generally be more hopeful than their nWoD counterparts. In fairness, I see much greater hope in the latter, given the setup of oWoD and the sheer awfulness of so much of it.
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Apr 29, 2020 18:28
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I was under the impression that being a Masquerade vampire was about being under the boot of your elders, whose power level you can never even hope to reach except by doing a very, very bad thing that will, rightfully, get you declared "Wanted: Extremely Dead" if you're discovered to have done it?
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Apr 29, 2020 18:36
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Somebody on here once said back when I was first getting into WoD "being a werewolf means the best thing you can hope for is to die gloriously fighting the Wyrm." The books I've read since then agree. The Garou aren't defeating the Wyrm or even its agents.They fight an endless war for nothing except that to not fight is even worse. That seems to be the spirit of the entire World of Darkness; the Absurdist response of smiling even as you push that boulder up the mountain forever. There is no hope beyond that happiness you forge yourself by smiling at the meaninglessness of it all. There certainly isn't going to be a happy ending. I can't speak for if CoD is better or worse than this, of course. Maybe it's a matter of perspective or emphasis.
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Apr 29, 2020 18:43
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NikkolasKing posted:
It's variable by line and even within lines. Among the ones I'm most familiar with, VTR is pretty bleak, DTD is EXTREMELY bleak and is mostly only less bleak than oWOD because taking oWOD's metagame seriously means taking for granted that PCs are guest stars in their own lives compared to THE META, but even then in DTD there's significant traditions of hoping you can carve out a good life in spite of (and spiting) the God-Machine, and of course the one philosophy that is playable that amounts to "suicide, but putting it off until it's the right kind of suicide." Then there's PTC, which is so hopeful it's provocative and challenging in a really great way.
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Apr 29, 2020 18:59
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WoD greatly emphasized the end times with most of it's lines. Hell, Apocalypse is straight up the title of Werewolf, and even though Vampire was a great tool to run political games, Gehenna and the impending return of the Antediluvians were it's main driving meta plot force. Hunter: The Reckoning was arguably the most hopeful line in how it dared humanity to strike back against the darkness, but the concept was that some mysterious supernatural force was Imbuing people in a futile last ditch effort to unfuck the world. CoD has very little built in doom saying and is more concerned with just plain ol' existing and finding your place in the world as a thing that goes bump in the night. Promethean provides an even further contrast to oWoD in that it gives an overt potential win condition, which is to become human.
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Apr 29, 2020 19:02
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