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Jack2142 posted:This act was signed into law by a Republican and as a result is poo poo, can't trust anything that party does. teddy was the progressive back then though.
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Apr 30, 2020 06:05
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Lemming posted:You're right that Obama was too incompetent to notice that his political opponents were ruthless criminals who don't give a gently caress about following fake rules that require everyone to pinky swear they'll act in good faith, that was actually one of the major failings of his administration, a mistake he made over and over for 8 years I agree with you on many of Obama's decisions, but it makes absolutely no sense in this case. What Trump has done here is little different from if he decided that congress passing a law making Bear Ears protected doesn't matter and now it's open.
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Apr 30, 2020 06:05
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Lemming posted:You're right that Obama was too incompetent to notice that his political opponents were ruthless criminals who don't give a gently caress about following fake rules that require everyone to pinky swear they'll act in good faith, that was actually one of the major failings of his administration, a mistake he made over and over for 8 years I literally cannot understand your reasoning. He should have had a law passed because he should have known his opponents think laws don't matter??? 
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Apr 30, 2020 06:05
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Acebuckeye13 posted:I don't think i ever expected to be debating whether the antiquities act is good, actually, at one am but here I am i guess lookit this here ivory hater
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Apr 30, 2020 06:06
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Dapper_Swindler posted:teddy was the progressive back then though. Lies he did Imperialism.
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Apr 30, 2020 06:08
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Camel Camus posted:I can tell you care a whole lot about this. I do too! I've had people pull this line a lot in casual conversations, but it really is a trick of marketing. Friend, I do all of the things you listed. Literally all of them. Here's the difference though: volunteering at migrant shelters and soup kitchens and things like that are attempts to address the symptoms of the problem. Voting, in contrast, is an attempt to address the root cause. Is your vote, by itself, going to change anything? No, of course not. But, especially in local elections, it is very likely to result in a lot of good. This is why it is insanely irresponsible to tell people that voting doesn't matter. quote:Besides that, accepting the narrative that eschewing elections is an act of privilege ignores some pretty major progressive thrusts in US history. Many incredibly disprivileged peoples in transformative movements have figured out that voting is a conservative and meaningless gesture and not an exercise of disengaged indulgence. I'm sorry you're frustrated and you don't like my tone but the reality doesn't reflect your frustration. In my experience, people who don't vote fall into two categories: the the disenfranchised and the privileged. I think the so-called "tankies" on the forum, as much as they like to pretend they fall in the former group, actually are a part of the latter group. Because the fact is, if you are able to tolerate and withstand a second term of this president, you are, without a shred of doubt, privileged.
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Apr 30, 2020 06:09
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Jack2142 posted:Lies he did Imperialism. lol. white fleet go brrr.
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Apr 30, 2020 06:09
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Dapper_Swindler posted:teddy was the progressive back then though. Oh, Strasserism.
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Apr 30, 2020 06:09
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Phone posting so I can’t quote Matt’s post without it being a mess, but: Trump is running literally fifty percent more drone strikes and has removed procedures to prevent civilian casualties, so once again we’re arguing “Biden would be better” vs. “but Biden wouldn’t END THEM, so it’s okay to let Trump continue to escalate as much as he wants” Maybe voting for Biden is kicking the can down the road, but not voting for him is opening that can of rotting poo poo and chowing down on it in the hopes that after four years of more food poisoning we get a socialist revolution rather than a fascist one, while claiming moral superiority because even while we’re increasing bombing and dropping bigger bombs and getting more tied into new civil wars and supporting new coups in South America “at least i didn’t vote so im not resposnisble!!!!!”
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Apr 30, 2020 06:10
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Ague Proof posted:Oh, Strasserism. Theodore Roosevelt was the first president to ever ask an African-American person to dine with him in the White House. I'm not confident that Donald Trump has done that for an African-American person over a century later.
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Apr 30, 2020 06:10
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Lemming posted:Guess it wasn't that lasting, it would've been nice if Obama had gotten a law passed with his supermajority that would have actually done this instead of something showy but easily overturned by the same overreaching executive authority he passed it with I guess if Obama really cared about America he would have made it illegal for Trump to run for president. Thanks Obama.
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Apr 30, 2020 06:11
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Pick posted:Theodore Roosevelt was the first president to ever ask an African-American person to dine with him in the White House. I'm not confident that Donald Trump has done that for an African-American person over a century later. that just makes him highly representative of the average white american tbh
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Apr 30, 2020 06:12
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enraged_camel posted:This is demonstrably false, as Biden helped and supported Obama on his EPA policies (that Trump has been rolling back). And if there is one thing Biden wants to do, it is to go back to the glory days of Obama. We should be grateful for this, with regards to environmental policies. Biden's ecological policies are being written by the oil and gas companies, precisely the same as Donald Trump's. if you expect that he will suddenly make a u-turn on a career spent proclaiming any green initiative a step too far, you can make that argument, but as it stands? the difference is whether you are drowning in boiling seawater to own the libs or to own the Bros. quote:Sorry but I have no loving idea what you are trying to say here. Please try to sound lucid, as opposed to clever. trump is racist as all hell, and much more crude about it than Joe Biden, but in terms of raw damage done? it is -really- hard to understate the amount of damage Joe Biden has done and is proud of doing. quote:Matches how? How does Biden match Trump with regards to *checks notes* giving insane amounts of tax breaks to wealth people and corporations? quote:Biden is... measurably inferior on infrastructure? nah, that one I freely grant as a Biden advantage, Trump's inferior on that one. Biden has certainly never given a poo poo about infrastructure but Trump's an incompetent enough manager that he's actively antagonistic to accomplishing any.
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Apr 30, 2020 06:13
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theflyingorc posted:No reasonable person would assume that Trump would exercise an executive power he explicitly doesn't have. How did you already forget about Bush
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Apr 30, 2020 06:14
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C'mon, guys. I want an example of Biden being good without needing to compare him to Trump. Saying he'll recognize treaties that Trump ignored ain't it. Saying he won't bulldoze Bear Ears like Trump is trying to ain't it. Saying he won't staff the feds with drunk criminals ain't it. And you all know it, or these examples wouldn't be filled with explanations on how I'm just going to move the goalposts. You think I like looking at Biden and worrying that he'll be worse for the country than another four years of that diseased lunatic? This is the God damned worst. Give me something to hold on to. Please. Please. Something good, about Biden, that isn't predicated on Trump. If it helps you focus exactly on what I'm looking for: What about Joseph Biden's 2022 America will be better than Barrack Obama's 2014 America?
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Apr 30, 2020 06:15
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armenian genocide?? when the gently caress did that become part of this conversation??
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Apr 30, 2020 06:15
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Dapper_Swindler posted:https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1255656645759246341 Holy poo poo, cops are trying to get their suspects to incriminate themselves? WTF?
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Apr 30, 2020 06:15
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Mystic Mongol posted:You think I like this model? Give me a reason to vote for Biden that doesn't entirely revolve around Donald Trump. You are ignoring a third way, which is that Joe Biden very obviously isn't going to make it to a second term. Not that I particularly care, I'm not going to vote for Biden because he's dogshit. Also not voting for trump because he is also complete dogshit. I also live in Texas, where my presidential vote doesn't matter. I'll make sure to show up and vote for as many leftists as I can. And failing a leftist choice, a democratdownballot. If I lived somewhere my vote mattered, I'd probably suck it up though and vote for sleepy joe. Failboattootoot fucked around with this message at 06:22 on Apr 30, 2020 |
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Apr 30, 2020 06:17
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RandomBlue posted:Holy poo poo, cops are trying to get their suspects to incriminate themselves? WTF? It's sort of amazing how little conservatives seem to know about anything they wholeheartedly support, isn't it?
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Apr 30, 2020 06:18
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Failboattootoot posted:You are ignoring a third way, which is that Joe Biden very obviously isn't going to make it to a second term. Honestly this makes me feel a little better, thank you.
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Apr 30, 2020 06:19
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Mystic Mongol posted:Honestly this makes me feel a little better, thank you. If that makes you feel better, he also signaled to a group of investors that he wasn't even likely to serve a full term. I'm looking for the article, but google searching Biden to find something specific is a bit poo poo.
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Apr 30, 2020 06:21
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Lemming posted:How did you already forget about Bush buddy you can read the Antiquities Act, it's not very long. The Antiquities Act of 1906 posted:16 USC 431-433 this isn't something Bush, Bush Sr, Reagan, Ford, Nixon, Eisenhower, Hoover, Coolidge, Harding, or Taft tried to do. This is something no one has done, since it is not in the law or in a hundred years of precedent of the law. As you can read. In the law. Right there.
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Apr 30, 2020 06:22
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Mystic Mongol posted:Honestly this makes me feel a little better, thank you. I'll give you one guess as to whether you're gonna like whoever he picks as VP
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Apr 30, 2020 06:22
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Mystic Mongol posted:C'mon, guys. I want an example of Biden being good without needing to compare him to Trump. Saying he'll recognize treaties that Trump ignored ain't it. Saying he won't bulldoze Bear Ears like Trump is trying to ain't it. Saying he won't staff the feds with drunk criminals ain't it. And you all know it, or these examples wouldn't be filled with explanations on how I'm just going to move the goalposts. I appreciate that when I quoted you and said “here’s what will be better under Biden, but you’re going to ignore it”, you then proceeded to put out another post like no one had ever responded to you Here’s a link to it in case you actually want to be honest: skeleton warrior posted:
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Apr 30, 2020 06:23
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Pick posted:armenian genocide?? when the gently caress did that become part of this conversation?? the guy asking about what in Joe Biden's civil rights record is so bad has expressed Opinions re: whether or not the purging of troublesome ethnicities from the motherland constitutes genocide, or just an act of national self-defense that got a little out of hand. i can totally buy that he in good faith considers Joe Biden's civil right's record just fine, but i suspect that given the above fact, he and I are operating from very different places when we discuss what a good civil rights record looks like.
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Apr 30, 2020 06:23
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Lemming posted:I'll give you one guess as to whether you're gonna like whoever he picks as VP For me personally, he just needs to pick someone who doesn't have dementia and a history of sexual assault.
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Apr 30, 2020 06:23
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Mystic Mongol posted:C'mon, guys. I want an example of Biden being good without needing to compare him to Trump. Saying he'll recognize treaties that Trump ignored ain't it. Saying he won't bulldoze Bear Ears like Trump is trying to ain't it. Saying he won't staff the feds with drunk criminals ain't it. And you all know it, or these examples wouldn't be filled with explanations on how I'm just going to move the goalposts. The only valid argument is "better than Trump" Old Dem voters are stupid
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Apr 30, 2020 06:24
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Lemming posted:I'll give you one guess as to whether you're gonna like whoever he picks as VP Y...... yes? skeleton warrior posted:I appreciate that when I quoted you and said “here’s what will be better under Biden, but you’re going to ignore it”, you then proceeded to put out another post like no one had ever responded to you I asked for an example where you didn't compare him to Trump. You're comparing him to Trump. (That's the person he's going to be "better" than in your quote, and the person threatening to pull out of treaties) I'm not ignoring your excellent post because I'm so owned all my flesh fell off, I'm ignoring it because it's explicitly not what I'm looking for. Am I being unclear here?
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Apr 30, 2020 06:26
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Failboattootoot posted:For me personally, he just needs to pick someone who doesn't have dementia and a history of sexual assault. A low bar, but still pretty easy for most politicians to limbo right under. Personally, I'm holding out for him being abducted by aliens prior to the convention so he can be replaced by someone better. Do we have a solid idea who he's picking for VP? "Called him a racist on live television" seems the obvious choice, but that's a bit of a sidegrade, from my perspective.
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Apr 30, 2020 06:27
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:Biden's ecological policies are being written by the oil and gas companies, precisely the same as Donald Trump's. Please provide evidence. Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:]you have, in the past, expressed that you believe the Armenian Genocide is a lie told by Armenians to try to win sympathy from the international community. as such, your assessment of Joe "We Must Jail Several Million People For Doing The Kinds Of Drugs Black People Use, And Maybe Chemically Lobotomize Black Children While We're At It" Biden, whose civil rights record is an unbroken string of considering those belonging to undesirable ethnic groups not technically human, and as such deserving of all the miseries visited upon them, may differ from mine. Hmm yes very interesting that you have dug up posts from my past for opinions I no longer hold. Either way though, it's not relevant at all to what we're saying! Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:trump is racist as all hell, and much more crude about it than Joe Biden, but in terms of raw damage done? it is -really- hard to understate the amount of damage Joe Biden has done and is proud of doing. Joe Biden has been in politics for literal decades. Trump has been in politics for only three and a half years. Give Trump another four years, and you'll see what he is capable of. (I know you would happily risk that in order to bring about your socialist paradise in 2024, but, fortunately, the Democratic base is not insane.)
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Apr 30, 2020 06:27
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enraged_camel posted:Friend, I do all of the things you listed. Literally all of them. I'm glad to hear you are engaged in acts of community support! But what I was getting at isn't about whether or not to personally so those things as much as if you give other people a hard time about not volunteering or doing actually effective actions in the same way you are committed to shaming people about their decision to vote. If not, why not? I also think you have it backwards! The electoral system has never and will absolutely not change the systemic stations of oppression that have existed in this country for centuries. I agree that your vote in local elections is likely to be more impactful (and I personal choose to vote in both federal and local elections for the ~feel goods~ even though I recognize it as ineffectual,) but even then the odds are not "very good" that they'll impact the outcome, they're in the one in tens of thousands to one in hundreds of millions range depending on the municipality and the kind of election. It's not a practical expression of power and it's certainly not worth trying to harass someone into doing before other, more practical abd transformative methods of building community and power. I think you are misreading what I'm saying. I'm absolutely not saying that it is okay to idly sit by and leave the president's power unchecked, I'm saying that the individual decision to vote is not a meaningful challenge to that power. You seem very concerned with fighting the tankies and making sure everyone understands their posture on the privilege meter. That seems tough and I hope you can soon find closure on both counts! Camel Camus fucked around with this message at 06:30 on Apr 30, 2020 |
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Apr 30, 2020 06:28
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:nah, that one I freely grant as a Biden advantage, Trump's inferior on that one. Biden has certainly never given a poo poo about infrastructure but Trump's an incompetent enough manager that he's actively antagonistic to accomplishing any. Nope Trump has built beautiful skyscrapers and resorts. What is bidens real estate portfolio? some dumpy mcmansion in Dover?
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Apr 30, 2020 06:30
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Ershalim posted:A low bar, but still pretty easy for most politicians to limbo right under. Personally, I'm holding out for him being abducted by aliens prior to the convention so he can be replaced by someone better. Do we have a solid idea who he's picking for VP? "Called him a racist on live television" seems the obvious choice, but that's a bit of a sidegrade, from my perspective. Since this is the dumbest timeline, I am going to guess he picks hilary clinton.
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Apr 30, 2020 06:31
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Jack2142 posted:Nope Trump has built beautiful skyscrapers and resorts. What is bidens real estate portfolio? some dumpy mcmansion in Dover? Wasn't Biden the poorest Senator for many years?
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Apr 30, 2020 06:32
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Pick posted:Wasn't Biden the poorest Senator for many years? That's why its a dumpy mcmansion.
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Apr 30, 2020 06:33
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Acebuckeye13 posted:buddy you can read the Antiquities Act, it's not very long. https://www.outsideonline.com/2146236/overturning-bears-ears-long-shot-doesnt-mean-republicans-wont-try quote:Pendley acknowledges that unilateral action by Trump to eliminate a national monument would be unprecedented. “Obviously, that will probably get to the Supreme Court, but I’m confident that a Trump Administration would prevail in that situation,” he says. This was written the day after Obama did his thing, it kind of looks like people at the time thought there was a pretty good chance of it getting undone!
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Apr 30, 2020 06:33
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Failboattootoot posted:Since this is the dumbest timeline, I am going to guess he picks hilary clinton. My personal "holy gently caress what a bad call, how very 2020" would be Doug Jones. It's vaguely plausible and incredibly underwhelming, so it'd fit with "I'm Hilary, but slightly worse" motif he's got going on.
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Apr 30, 2020 06:33
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Gonna laugh when Biden actually picks Hunter as his VP.
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Apr 30, 2020 06:34
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Mystic Mongol posted:C'mon, guys. I want an example of Biden being good without needing to compare him to Trump. Saying he'll recognize treaties that Trump ignored ain't it. Saying he won't bulldoze Bear Ears like Trump is trying to ain't it. Saying he won't staff the feds with drunk criminals ain't it. And you all know it, or these examples wouldn't be filled with explanations on how I'm just going to move the goalposts. Joe Biden's stated healthcare plan is expanded Medicaid, expanded Medicare, and a public option that is technically Medicare For All in the sense that it is literally structured after Medicare's implementation and means-tested premiums. Donald Trump's healthcare plan is "repeal the ACA, let everyone with preexisting conditions / receiving expanded Medicaid / receiving subsidies die". Joe Biden's stated climate plan is carbon neutral by 2050. Donald Trump's climate plan is carbon neutral when all oxygen-breathing life on the planet is dead. Joe Biden's stated immigration plan is to put immigrant families in communities that share their language and provide them with case agents, lawyers, and holistic and community support. Donald Trump's immigration plan is to put immigrant families in cages where they will contract covid19 and die. The rebuttal which people are already at this moment rearing up to post is that Joe Biden won't try to fulfill his platform, or will try halfheartedly and fail, or even if he succeeds it's not good enough, or even if he succeeds it will lead to Richard Spencer 2024 and the end of the world. And you know, they have a point in some of that. But you asked for a difference, and if he succeeds in literally any of that, never mind the pile of other planks if you Check His Website, that's actual positives vs Not Being Trump.
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Apr 30, 2020 06:34
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Electing Biden (or whoever the nominee is) is electing the Democratic platform, warts and all. It's difficult to not only compare this to the Republican platform but to also the current figurehead of the party (Trump). That is why these comparisons are naturally being made. Instead, by focusing on local elections, you will make the people's lives around you better than focusing on who the figurehead of the party is going to be. I will say that down-ticket (and my local representatives) will have a MUCH better time and be more empowered to enact change with a Dem president than a Republican one. This isn't even in question. I'm focusing on that. I've already helped to get an extremely progressive candidate elected to my city council, defeating a fairly conservative incumbent who's family literally owns the local newspaper and was writing "just asking questions" bullshit articles (full of SOCIALISM and the like). After the second (and final) recount, he won by five loving votes. Considering I registered about a dozen people personally, it feels really good. This guy may be a Senator one day (he's young enough!), so building a bench while trying to keep Dems in power seems to be the way to go for now.
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Apr 30, 2020 06:36
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