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Nothing in the Nomuraverse ever catches on anything else.
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May 1, 2020 16:15
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Cao Ni Ma posted:I like how nomura cant shake the belt fascination but has traded zippers for buttons. You forgot the black hooded cloaks. He got his beloved black hooded cloaks in big-time
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May 1, 2020 16:18
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FF7R does at least manage to have a slightly deeper message about capitalism and environmentalism than is typical of a videogame though. The conversations between Barret and President Shinra are quite good in that regard. The first time they talk Barret goes on some not-very-thought-out rant about how Shinra is brainwashing everybody and blinding them to the truth, where the President immediately retorts that he doesn't need to brainwash anybody and everybody knows exactly what's going on and doesn't care. Then later on he asks Barret what he would do after he wins and how a planet plunged into total electrical blackout and chaos would welcome its self-styled liberators. Barret is left flustered in both conversations but it certainly isn't supposed to paint Shinra in a good light or make it look like Barret got Owned By Logic And Reason or whatever. It does throw it out there that the problems aren't quite as simple as "this one greedy CEO needs to be defeated and then everything will be fine". Persona 5 kind of flirts with this line of inquiry in its last few chapters but then eventually culminates in a battle against a supernatural manifestation of apathy instead, which is the typical 1990s cop-out for avoiding any sort of discussion about alienation under capitalism or institutional capture Sapozhnik fucked around with this message at 16:26 on May 1, 2020 |
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May 1, 2020 16:23
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Agents are GO! posted:Nothing in the Nomuraverse ever catches on anything else. Early on when Cloud goes to pull his sword and it gets stuck on the door frame
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May 1, 2020 16:32
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I don't think mako needs to be a 100% perfect metaphor for coal or nuclear power. It's kinda like how X-Men doesn't 100% map to being a metaphor for one particular marginalized group.
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May 1, 2020 16:38
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precision posted:Early on when Cloud goes to pull his sword and it gets stuck on the door frame How much more crazy does Cloud come off if you go through all the cutscenes with the nail bat equipped?
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May 1, 2020 16:40
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precision posted:Early on when Cloud goes to pull his sword and it gets stuck on the door frame Touché. I was amused that Cloud sleeps with his pauldron on - and he sleeps on that side. In his own bed, not sleeping rough. That's commitment to a look.
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May 1, 2020 16:47
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I’m back on page 55, so I don’t know sort of crazy has come up yet, but do you think (in future installments) Cloud is going to mention Xenogears again or that they’re gonna say that Jenova is a Fayth or a part of Sin that hitched a ride with FFX-2 Shinra and got really interested in the Cetra when they landed?
Takoluka fucked around with this message at 17:48 on May 1, 2020 |
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May 1, 2020 17:07
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Onmi posted:Nomura didn't do Rufus's new outfit. Roberto Ferarri did. He also did Aranea in XV and Cidney. I’d like to see Ferrari become the next-in-line for FF main character designs. His style is very flamboyant and colorful, but doesn’t seem to get as repetitive as Nomura.
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May 1, 2020 17:37
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HD DAD posted:I’d like to see Ferrari become the next-in-line for FF main character designs. His style is very flamboyant and colorful, but doesn’t seem to get as repetitive as Nomura. hopefully the poor guy doesn't inherit Gamer Shibboleth: Nomura Hateboner
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May 1, 2020 17:44
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did Rufus really need to be wearing raver pants
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May 1, 2020 17:56
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I'm still completely confused about why the Time Cops attacked the avalanche base in chapter 4
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May 1, 2020 18:36
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precision posted:I'm still completely confused about why the Time Cops attacked the avalanche base in chapter 4 To injure Jessie so that Cloud has to go on the 2nd bombing mission in her place
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May 1, 2020 18:39
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Yeah, in the original, Barret hires Cloud to go on the Reactor 5 bombing mission right away. In the remake, he doesn't want to hire Cloud. The time cops hurt Jessie so that Barret needs another team member on the mission and, wouldn't you know, there's a spiky-haired mercenary right there!
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May 1, 2020 18:49
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Oh, it's the extremely obvious thing. I thought there was something I was missing
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May 1, 2020 18:50
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Plus Wedge now has to stay behind to make sure Jessie is okay, so now Tifa has to come along and hey look the entire party is together again.
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May 1, 2020 18:51
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I wish I had ghosts to sabotage others for my own prospects...
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May 1, 2020 18:53
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Coal isn't portrayed as a positive thing in FF7. Its considered archaic and a failing source of energy, which is why Barret wanted to switch Correl over to Mako. Which is accurate to how coal was generally viewed by a lot of people, even in in the 90s.Sapozhnik posted:did Rufus really need to be wearing raver pants Nomura had to concentrate all his bullshit onto one design to spare the rest of the game.
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May 1, 2020 18:54
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precision posted:Oh, it's the extremely obvious thing. I thought there was something I was missing It's still kind of wild that that's the answer. You'd think that attacking a town en masse with a swarm of ghosts would put some ripples in the timeline and they'd want to go with a more subtle approach if all they want to do is injure a person's leg, but I guess people in the midgar slums are just used to weird poo poo.
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May 1, 2020 19:03
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Sapozhnik posted:did Rufus really need to be wearing raver pants What do you think he was doing before he showed up?
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May 1, 2020 19:03
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Agents are GO! posted:What do you think he was doing before he showed up? Rufus would definitely be the type to be dancing to some Pet Shop Boys circa ‘99 while defending his fashion choices as culottes, duh.
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May 1, 2020 19:07
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Ainsley McTree posted:It's still kind of wild that that's the answer. You'd think that attacking a town en masse with a swarm of ghosts would put some ripples in the timeline and they'd want to go with a more subtle approach if all they want to do is injure a person's leg, but I guess people in the midgar slums are just used to weird poo poo. I think the time ghosts response to things going even further off course is in fact more time ghosts. The Planets defense systems are impressive looking but seem kinda dumb and don't work so good in practice?
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May 1, 2020 19:08
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Caidin posted:I think the time ghosts response to things going even further off course is in fact more time ghosts. Not much different than human immune systems
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May 1, 2020 19:15
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timeghost cytokine storm
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May 1, 2020 19:15
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zedprime posted:The party goes on a hippy quest to keep the large materia from being fired off world and then use them to look for ways around meteor or the North Crater barrier and even turn on the Ancient capital waterfall tv screen looking for help and find nothing, only for Shinra to beat them to it and the mako canon was actually the perfect tool to defeat the barrier. A bit late but the mako canon being the perfect tool for taking down the barrier notwithstanding, the party wanted to stop it because to power the mako canon, Shinra had to pump even more souls into it. Same reason they're against sending the huge materia into space. It's not because "it's Shinra so it's bad" or anything. It's because the materia is crystallized souls and sending that away is as assuredly killing the planet, which requires souls to remain within the cycle, as burning up so much mako to fire the cannon is.
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May 1, 2020 19:28
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What exactly is Huge Materia supposed to do again?
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May 1, 2020 19:34
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Presumably it's more powerful than regular materia. I don't think we even know if it's actually "huge" physically. Maybe it's just more condensed. But Bugenhagen keeps them in his observatory after you save them, and they're pretty big and give you the Master Materia and Bahamut Zero, so maybe it's a good thing if Shinra is stopped.
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May 1, 2020 19:37
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Why can't you go down to the super secret Avalanche base in this game? Bullshit, that's why. That's where they're all having fun and getting drunk while Cloud does sidequests.
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May 1, 2020 19:38
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Just Andi Now posted:A bit late but the mako canon being the perfect tool for taking down the barrier notwithstanding, the party wanted to stop it because to power the mako canon, Shinra had to pump even more souls into it. Same reason they're against sending the huge materia into space. It's not because "it's Shinra so it's bad" or anything. It's because the materia is crystallized souls and sending that away is as assuredly killing the planet, which requires souls to remain within the cycle, as burning up so much mako to fire the cannon is.
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May 1, 2020 19:40
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Whitenoise Poster posted:I have never consumed any ff7 media outside a stream of the remake and like 2/3rds of the original game until chocoboo breeding stopped me cold. I'm choosing to believe you are lying to m- Because...Japan. I'd say I'm relieved they forwent the incest angle but uhhh....no...no they didn't they just did it with two dudes instead. One of which wears bondage gear at all times because....subtlety....I guess It's not a good game is what I'm saying.
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May 1, 2020 21:39
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zedprime posted:It's a consistent plot but mixed theming. As far as it's presented we need to blast the barrier with soul juice. No other options, we're out of time, you already stop meteor in spitting distance of Midgar. Actually the og crew have no time to see if they could figure out another way into the crater, the capitalists made the decision for everyone. And doing so drew the attention of Diamond Weapon, resulting in hundreds of deaths. And even after that, the party has to stop what they're doing and go into Midgar itself to stop Hojo just feeding the planet's life directly to the monster ShinRa had created. Like yeah it's not as simple as "tech bad", that's the point of Cosmo Canyon. It's about realising we shouldn't use that tech to exploit the planet but rather protect and nurture it. That's what Cid is telling us when we go to space. ETA: this is why the Cosmo Canyon theme has a  electric guitar part to it, as a supporting instrument to the cool tribal part to it and why every version isn't as good.
Cavelcade fucked around with this message at 21:57 on May 1, 2020 |
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May 1, 2020 21:47
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Midgar gets destroyed in the final sequence of the game for a reason. Even if Shinra takes a backseat to Sephiroth in immediate urgency and spectacle, they are still ultimately the perpetrators of everything and its their fault the world falls apart. I don't think the story benefits from having the concept of destiny introduced as an antagonistic element. It feels like something invented entirely so they have an excuse to do new 'exciting' stuff with the FF7 cast. Which I guess is... okay, if that's what you want, but I think this game could carry a lot more weight if they didn't do this stuff and just stuck with expanding the original plot. Despite not playing it as a kid I can appreciate a lot of the narrative beats of FF7 now (though I won't pretend I understood all the twists in the story perfectly). I didn't feel anything seeing the big destiny ghost fight in the remake. Cavelcade posted:Like yeah it's not as simple as "tech bad", that's the point of Cosmo Canyon. It's about realising we shouldn't use that tech to exploit the planet but rather protect and nurture it. That's what Cid is telling us when we go to space. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but this was the entire point of Bugenhagen right? He's your typical 'wise spiritual elder' type character, but his backstory isn't that he's some hipee that always had an innate spiritual connection to the planet. He was a Shinra Engineer, and he saw firsthand what was happening to the world, and that's why he left. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 22:20 on May 1, 2020 |
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May 1, 2020 22:11
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I mean, Cloud also references materia use being extremely common - not just for fights, presumably, since most of the characters outside the cast aren't necessarily warriors. And the silly chapter 9 sidequests about giving mundane advice are all tied to materia use. Liquified Materia is apparently used in the Airbuster's systems. The Cetra apparently had a materia-based, sustainably-Mako-powered society as well, per the Shinra PR film. So it doesn't seem likely that the choice is "tech or anarchoprimitivism where we all are reduced to hunter-gatherer levels." If I was to guess, I'd assume that Gaia's technology is heavily based upon the exploitation of materia, and a more healthy world would be one where they capitalized more upon it. Mako reactors are big, bulky, and allow for vast power generation but Mako seems to just sort of flow up from the world at natural points for potential use at sustainable rates? The reactor is described as having a pump, after all. Oil and other such forms of non-renewable energy generation could probably be used for the same purposes they could be in the real world - as a way to rapidly bootstrap to more sustainable power sources as part of industrialization. And notably, in any case, Midgar isn't even remotely efficient about its economic structure. While the Midgar in Reeve's concept art is this glorious beautiful place - it's actually kind of sad, to be honest - that exists in harmony with nature, the actual city of Midgar is falling apart even before it was completed, pointlessly baroque and poorly maintained. There's beauty in the slums and even on the plate, but Shinra clearly wants to abandon the place and move on rather than actually build it for long-term sustainability. Mako reactors are a monstrous technology, but it's runaway capitalism that seems to pervert industrial technology in Gaia, much as it is in the real world. Notably, Barret doesn't actually have an answer immediately to Shinra's claims that a world without Mako will be helpless in the face of natural disasters, a "sterile and impotent world," even if the arguments are being used in the service of a bad-faith argument. I don't think they'll bring that up explicitly and not make "finding a better way" a big part of Avalanche's goals. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 22:38 on May 1, 2020 |
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May 1, 2020 22:33
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Jetrauben posted:I mean, Cloud also references materia use being extremely common - not just for fights, presumably, since most of the characters outside the cast aren't necessarily warriors. And the silly chapter 9 sidequests about giving mundane advice are all tied to materia use. Liquified Materia is apparently used in the Airbuster's systems. The Cetra apparently had a materia-based, sustainably-Mako-powered society as well, per the Shinra PR film. So it doesn't seem likely that the choice is "tech or anarchoprimitivism where we all are reduced to hunter-gatherer levels." The tragedy of this is there are in fact alternate energy sources but since Shinra has monopolized the market people like Barret wouldn't know the first thing about them. After all he came from a coal town and even then knew that was an inefficient source of energy.
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May 1, 2020 22:52
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Flopsy posted:The tragedy of this is there are in fact alternate energy sources but since Shinra has monopolized the market people like Barret wouldn't know the first thing about them. After all he came from a coal town and even then knew that was an inefficient source of energy. To be fair there's a lot of controversy about whether or not renewables like wind and solar could solely meet the needs of an industrial society (the argument usually boils down to whether or not we need nuclear among green-energy alternatives), but even in the game narrative, it's explicitly pointed out the Cetra used Mako as a power source themselves.
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May 1, 2020 23:02
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The Cetra using mako as energy is the company line meant to normalize it. I wouldn't be surprised that it more meant they knew how to use materia incredibly well and had a few other magic tricks having the planet on speed dial.
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May 1, 2020 23:11
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While that's true, it doesn't really seem to be necessarily contradictory, either. All industrial technology is already about exploiting natural sources of energy and resources. I don't think sustainability is incompatible with the use of Mako in itself, just with the idea of permanently burning it up for simple fuel. I mean, every single time the characters use materia, they're drawing on Mako energy.
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May 1, 2020 23:13
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Jetrauben posted:To be fair there's a lot of controversy about whether or not renewables like wind and solar could solely meet the needs of an industrial society (the argument usually boils down to whether or not we need nuclear among green-energy alternatives), but even in the game narrative, it's explicitly pointed out the Cetra used Mako as a power source themselves. I doubt they're going to go into the economics of power-generation in a post-Mako economy in detail because it's irrelevant to the narrative except as flavor text, but what seems to follow from what they have as flavor text would in fact be wind and solar, maybe backed up by idk Fire/Lightning huge materia?
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May 1, 2020 23:13
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Notably, I feel it's important the Remake does not actually let Barret win the argument with President Shinra. He's so shocked that all he can really do is lamely ask "well what do you believe in, huh?" Barret's criticisms are valid but the game is constantly calling him out for not having a plan beyond the very good objective of "get rid of Shinra, the evil edifice of hypercapitalist corporatism destroying the planet. Even Aerith says she likes Midgar, in a way, and a lot of background characters are proud of having built it in their youths. It is, legitimately, an achievement to have built something so vast and ridiculously complex. I don't think it's an accident that Shinra is simply letting it fall apart, either, betraying all that early-industrial-era hope it represents.
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May 1, 2020 23:17
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Jetrauben posted:While that's true, it doesn't really seem to be necessarily contradictory, either. All industrial technology is already about exploiting natural sources of energy and resources. I don't think sustainability is incompatible with the use of Mako in itself, just with the idea of permanently burning it up for simple fuel.
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May 1, 2020 23:17
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