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quickest way to communism is simply abolishing the s and c corp organization structure and replace them with co-operative structures where the board is elected by the workers (or the state if you're an ML, whatever) instead of shareholders. bing bong so simple
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May 1, 2020 20:36
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oh and then dividends get paid out to the workers as bonuses for productivity. any questions?
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May 1, 2020 20:37
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common misconception. the quickest way to communism is to encircle the cities from the countryside
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May 1, 2020 20:44
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nah the formula is soviet power + electrification = communism
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May 1, 2020 20:49
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Ferrinus posted:common misconception. the quickest way to communism is to encircle the cities from the countryside Encircle the countryside from the cities
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May 1, 2020 20:51
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StashAugustine posted:Is there a good book or something on the Zapatistas because they're interesting but I don't know too much It's complicated, I'll write an effortpost tomorrow if I remember after drinking tomorrow
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May 1, 2020 20:52
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dex_sda posted:Encircle the countryside from the cities REVOLUTIONARIES 1 AND 2: holy poo poo
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May 1, 2020 21:05
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dex_sda posted:Encircle the countryside from the cities  WALL.
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May 1, 2020 21:08
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you don't encircle the cities, you evacuate them bing bang boom, instant peasantry
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May 1, 2020 21:14
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encircle the planet from space 
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May 1, 2020 21:31
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Top City Homo posted:encircle the planet from space It's called starlink
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May 1, 2020 21:34
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dex_sda posted:that's kinda how it works in the zapatistas, except there is a crucial component of making sure the central part is not so powerful as to be able to dictate policy unilaterally. a federated bottom-up 'state' is one of the modern anarchist ideas. isnt that what the usa is
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May 1, 2020 21:42
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That’s why we’re the global superpower 🧠 Socialism stays winning
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May 1, 2020 21:44
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GalacticAcid posted:That’s why we’re the global superpower 🧠 Hell yeah USA In seriousness, the differences are fundsmental in many different ways but yes USA is a federation too, one ruled by neoliberalidm and where corporations actually have enormous power, which is decidedly not the case in zapatism
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May 1, 2020 21:53
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what's the mechanism to prevent that kind of thing from happening in a weak and decentralized state?
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May 1, 2020 21:59
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dex_sda posted:Hell yeah USA sounds like the zapatistas need to read up on their xi jinping thought
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May 1, 2020 22:05
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mila kunis posted:what's the mechanism to prevent that kind of thing from happening in a weak and decentralized state? Sorry, what kind of thing are you referring to, because I'm not sure, the state devolving into corporation rule?
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May 1, 2020 22:13
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dex_sda posted:Sorry, what kind of thing are you referring to, because I'm not sure, the state devolving into corporation rule? yeah, or any subparts of the state hoarding resources. what stops these kinds of states from devolving into oligarchy/warlordism and going back to square one in terms of social inequality
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May 1, 2020 22:25
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https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1256331851695706114?s=12 hitting the dab in my DPRK flag
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May 1, 2020 22:28
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Today 📅📅📅 is MAY DAY 👷❗️❗️👷 Most people 👥👥 are forced to work 🔨📞💻 for PROFIT 💲💹💹🏧 but I would work 🔨📞💻 for YOU 👦 👧 because YOU'RE MY COMRADE 💪👬👭💂❗️❗️ Send 📨📧 to 5 comrades who appreciate 😊👍 your LABOR 🔨🔧 or be EXPLOITED 💵💰🚨🚓 by the BOURGEOISIE 🚬🔫🔪💸💸💸❗️❗️
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May 1, 2020 22:31
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https://twitter.com/GalloVOA/status/1256330999991959552
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May 1, 2020 22:31
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May 1, 2020 22:40
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May 1, 2020 22:41
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May 1, 2020 22:47
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mila kunis posted:yeah, or any subparts of the state hoarding resources. what stops these kinds of states from devolving into oligarchy/warlordism and going back to square one in terms of social inequality First off, I think characterisation of their state as weak is unfair. They fared well against the neoliberal forces of much larger size, and against cartels. They even expanded recently in the face of these forces. Second, I think analysis of any leftist thing needs to be done in context, and I'm too drunk for that lol. But in a nutshell, it's a balancing act: you have a structure of federated coops, and a centralised army. The army is purposefully weak to an insurgency by coops and to their decisions so that it cannot do something without broad approval while being strong enough to help with external problems and also keep an eye on any concept of a market emerging. In that way, a corporation emerging will be opposed by enough forces to stop it (other coops, and the army). There is also an element necessary in anarchist societies, which is socialist education of the commons that rule that allows them to react to subversive forces before they can flourish. Even though I am hugely into the zapatista community, I have to admit this weakness of this approach: it's slower. You need the buy in from regular people on a deeper level, so expansion is necessarily slower. The final piece of the puzzle is the cooperative economy: if you don't play nice, you're gonna be less effective. dex_sda fucked around with this message at 23:04 on May 1, 2020 |
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May 1, 2020 23:00
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i think it's a mistake to treat bottom-up decision-making/the need for a buy-in from the masses as unique to anarchist organizing specifically or even as unique to state or nation-building, generally. like, western historians like to portray fascist germany as though it was composed of masses of good liberals who had simply been terrorized into compliance by a dictator and his forces, but that's not actually a realistic scenario. if your entire people hate you you can't rule over them even if you have the army on your side because who's going to feed the army? in fact most german citizens supported or at worst didn't much care about their government's insane policies, and the few conscientious objectors were just sheepishly ignored or allowed to go about their business because they didn't actually want for volunteers to do the most heinous poo poo in the same way, the ussr had a "supreme soviet" and obviously a centralized, disciplined army with a specific commander, but when it came to e.g. designing a five-year plan there was a massive amount of negotiation interplay between the top of the hierarchy on one end and every single little collective farm and factory on the other. so i would say that it's not that decentralized decision-making that's ultimately safeguarded by a centralized monopoly in force, like that of the zapatistas, is some kind of libertarian pipe dream, but rather that that's what other socialist states were also doing insofar as their circumstances allowed them to
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May 1, 2020 23:23
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LMAO a fertilizer plant is some A+ trolling
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May 1, 2020 23:27
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Ferrinus posted:i think it's a mistake to treat bottom-up decision-making/the need for a buy-in from the masses as unique to anarchist organizing specifically or even as unique to state or nation-building, generally. like, western historians like to portray fascist germany as though it was composed of masses of good liberals who had simply been terrorized into compliance by a dictator and his forces, but that's not actually a realistic scenario. if your entire people hate you you can't rule over them even if you have the army on your side because who's going to feed the army? in fact most german citizens supported or at worst didn't much care about their government's insane policies, and the few conscientious objectors were just sheepishly ignored or allowed to go about their business because they didn't actually want for volunteers to do the most heinous poo poo there are important distinguishing factors, but I broadly agree that it shows ML and anarchism are very much two sides of the same coin, and I think a synthesis of these ideas is worth exploring.
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May 1, 2020 23:47
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dex_sda posted:there are important distinguishing factors, but I broadly agree that it shows ML and anarchism are very much two sides of the same coin, and I think a synthesis of these ideas is worth exploring. ML is successful anarchism
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May 1, 2020 23:59
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https://twitter.com/AP/status/1256338125770514433?s=20quote:MIAMI (AP) — The plan was simple, but perilous. Some 300 heavily armed volunteers would sneak into Venezuela from the northern tip of South America. Along the way, they would raid military bases in the socialist country and ignite a popular rebellion that would end in President Nicolás Maduro’s arrest.
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May 2, 2020 05:51
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dex_sda posted:First off, I think characterisation of their state as weak is unfair. They fared well against the neoliberal forces of much larger size, and against cartels. They even expanded recently in the face of these forces. Fully agree with this, and I believe this is also properly centralization in the marxist sense rather than indicating some kind of theoretical incompatibility. The Zapatista system sounds like it was built on the basis of strength while the Bolshevik system was built on the basis of weakness. A strong leader gets people to unite behind them on their own and gets full use of their creative capacities, special talents, motivation etc. A weak leader needs to force people to follow them, rules through fear to the extent and to that extent makes people uncreatively follow the letter of what they were told to accomplish. The advantage of orthodox ML visions in relation to these pseudo-anarchist visions is not at all the strength of the societies they imply, it's all in the speed they can expand to capture society under a minimal level of unity to function in an organized way. The hold of a system on its periphery necessarily starts out weak, and the question is how much you need to build it up before you can fully integrate the periphery within the system. But ortho ML failed because it started to think it was building communism from a position of strength rather than building power from a position of weakness. Anything but power for the sake of power began looking like a betrayal of communism, so they couldn't actually use the power for any kind of qualitative next step.
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May 2, 2020 08:12
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strange feelings re Daisy posted:Diosdado Cabello, the No. 2 most powerful person in the country and eminence grise of Venezuela’s vast intelligence network, insisted that the government had infiltrated the plot for months.
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May 2, 2020 09:51
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ah yes "a rag-tag group of volunteer combatants" of "some 300 heavily-armed"
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May 2, 2020 14:43
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uncop posted:Fully agree with this, and I believe this is also properly centralization in the marxist sense rather than indicating some kind of theoretical incompatibility. The Zapatista system sounds like it was built on the basis of strength while the Bolshevik system was built on the basis of weakness. A strong leader gets people to unite behind them on their own and gets full use of their creative capacities, special talents, motivation etc. A weak leader needs to force people to follow them, rules through fear to the extent and to that extent makes people uncreatively follow the letter of what they were told to accomplish. Perhaps it has less to do with the great man narrative of strong leader vs weak leader and more to do with the fact that the Russian empire was several magnitudes larger than half of chiapas
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May 2, 2020 16:13
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Hereto anarchism has only suceeded on extremely small geopolitical levels. It's impossible to compare the ezln to the ussr. the former has a population of less than 300k, the latter occupied the largest country by land area on earth. You might as well compare tahlequah oklahoma to tokyo
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May 2, 2020 16:22
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Edit: Phone posting
Dreddout fucked around with this message at 16:43 on May 2, 2020 |
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May 2, 2020 16:23
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https://twitter.com/SimonPearson961/status/1256128788053856257?s=19
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May 2, 2020 17:21
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https://twitter.com/ICFI_WSWS/status/1256579312813301760 https://twitter.com/JoeLorenzWSWS/status/1256615444548472832
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May 2, 2020 17:22
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gradenko_2000 posted:https://twitter.com/ICFI_WSWS/status/1256579312813301760 lol wsws all the people at work can't stop talking about the world socialist web site! nice try trots!
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May 2, 2020 17:41
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Who was the trot who supported USA taking over North Korea because they would develop the productive forces better?
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May 2, 2020 17:46
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