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Necrothatcher posted:Hmm, good point. I forgot about Corel being a coal town. Barret becomes a full-blown fossil fuel baron in Collection material, big Jerry Rubin energy
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May 1, 2020 23:18
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:Barret becomes a full-blown fossil fuel baron in Collection material, big Jerry Rubin energy Yeah, which is just like... You guys didn't think this one through, huh? It really does feel like they're trying to actively push back against the anarchoprimitivist elements of the original game by having "after Mako, now what?" be an open question. Since Tifa and Cloud both call out Barret at various points for ignoring the "now what?" and pointing out that it has made peoples' lives better, and all Barret can do is somewhat lamely say "well it'll be better after the revolution when they open their eyes!" zedprime posted:Materia are crystal thoughts. The energy comes from within hence MP. The materia just teaches you that fire magic exists. I don't know that's industrially exploitable without slavery, the whole Cetra society seems like a commune living within it's means. Mako is life energy; it's where MP comes from. That said, too, they make reference to materia being used to power technology on multiple occasions. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 23:22 on May 1, 2020 |
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May 1, 2020 23:19
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Rhonne posted:What exactly is Huge Materia supposed to do again? The same as a Small Materia, but bigger
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May 1, 2020 23:20
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Barret is a reckless idiot who's solution to everything is smashing it. The point of his conversation with the President (which I think is a terrible scene but whatever) is to show he hasn't planned things through. Its a reoccurring theme with him; he sees obstacles, breaks them down, but doesn't know what he's going to do afterwards. He hasn't actually thought about a world without Shinra. Hopefully his character development is going to be thinking ahead, not just above removing problems he sees but also being the solution to what they've created, Jetrauben posted:Barret's criticisms are valid but the game is constantly calling him out for not having a plan beyond the very good objective of "get rid of Shinra, the evil edifice of hypercapitalist corporatism destroying the planet. Even Aerith says she likes Midgar, in a way, and a lot of background characters are proud of having built it in their youths. It is, legitimately, an achievement to have built something so vast and ridiculously complex. I think the way Midgar slums are portrayed in the remake is honestly a huge problem with the narrative. In the original game almost the entirety of the slums are grimy, disgusting, dangerous, and shrouded in darkness. Shinra has literally put the rich above the poor in a physical sense. All of the comforts the people living there experience come at the expense of those below them. Midgar is supposed to be an abomination of a city which is why it has to be destroyed in the resolution of FF7. The remake undermines that a lot. The slums aren't nearly as dangerous, and they look almost pleasant in some cases. People are obviously still poor but they aren't living in a completely dismal state due to the abuses of those above them. The game tries to claim they are but it doesn't show that at all, and nobody acts like it.
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May 1, 2020 23:30
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Internet Kraken posted:Barret is a reckless idiot who's solution to everything is smashing it. The point of his conversation with the President (which I think is a terrible scene but whatever) is to show he hasn't planned things through. Its a reoccurring theme with him; he sees obstacles, breaks them down, but doesn't know what he's going to do afterwards. He hasn't actually thought about a world without Shinra. I don't think that's unrealistic at all. Even in poverty, people try to build the best lives they can for each other, and they form support networks and build small pleasures wherever they can. That's much more believable than "everything is disgusting and grimy forever."
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May 1, 2020 23:32
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Jetrauben posted:I don't think that's unrealistic at all. Even in poverty, people try to build the best lives they can for each other, and they form support networks and build small pleasures wherever they can. That's much more believable than "everything is disgusting and grimy forever." Yeah exactly. For me the slums felt way more crummy and desperate in this.
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May 1, 2020 23:33
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Internet Kraken posted:Barret is a reckless idiot who's solution to everything is smashing it. The point of his conversation with the President (which I think is a terrible scene but whatever) is to show he hasn't planned things through. Its a reoccurring theme with him; he sees obstacles, breaks them down, but doesn't know what he's going to do afterwards. He hasn't actually thought about a world without Shinra. Yeah but Shinra's big evil plan is fact the abandonment and eventual destruction of Midgar. I feel like the idea that this is a place can be redeemed and rebuilt is a major theme here. But I guess having it's collective poo poo pushed in by Meteor is the requisite to that. I mean even hideous shithole towns/cities have a weird sort of beauty to some areas, that's not unrealistic that's just what happens in real life. See abandoned buildings being reclaimed by nature etc.
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May 1, 2020 23:35
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precision posted:Yeah exactly. For me the slums felt way more crummy and desperate in this. It was also kind of a nice touch that Sector 7, at least, looked positively homey in a hardscrabble working-class sort of way at night, but during the day it looks a lot more dismal. And keep in mind we see things like "people need to buy special filters to filter out all the pollution in the water."
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May 1, 2020 23:35
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The only thing I wish the game had commented on about the slums is the fact that Aerith is able to nurture flowers and plants where everything is dying in and around Midgar. You think at least one party member might make a note before or after her abduction that Aerith's house is basically the only verdant garden in the entire city.
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May 1, 2020 23:35
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Jetrauben posted:I don't think that's unrealistic at all. Even in poverty, people try to build the best lives they can for each other, and they form support networks and build small pleasures wherever they can. That's much more believable than "everything is disgusting and grimy forever." Its also not realistic for a city to literally be built on top of another one but things are done for the purpose of a narrative. I'm not objecting to people in the slums trying to enjoy their lives, but its presented in a way that is way to hospitable. The slums in Midgar are more tolerable than many places in real life, and it undermines the narrative of the original. It should be a miserable place choked in darkness and smog, the poor forced to suffer beneath the shadow of those prioritized over them. Dreylad posted:The only thing I wish the game had commented on about the slums is the fact that Aerith is able to nurture flowers and plants where everything is dying in and around Midgar. You think at least one party member might make a note before or after her abduction that Aerith's house is basically the only verdant garden in the entire city. That's how it was in the original but there are flowers and grass growing in a lot of places in Sector 6. I guess maybe that is all because of Aerith though. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 23:39 on May 1, 2020 |
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May 1, 2020 23:37
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Internet Kraken posted:Barret is a reckless idiot who's solution to everything is smashing it. The point of his conversation with the President (which I think is a terrible scene but whatever) is to show he hasn't planned things through. Its a reoccurring theme with him; he sees obstacles, breaks them down, but doesn't know what he's going to do afterwards. He hasn't actually thought about a world without Shinra. Wtf there's crumbling cement and scrap metal/machinery all over the place, it looks like the topsiders use the undercity as a dump, which is also implied in dialogue. It looks like people with nothing making the best they can out of misery and the only thing missing is one of those piss-yellow tint filters they use in movies to portray "scary poor people city"
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May 1, 2020 23:38
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Internet Kraken posted:Its also not realistic for a city to literally be built on top of another one but things are done for the purpose of a narrative. Completely disagree with this and think the approach they've done with this is much better. 100% pure crushing dystopia is also in line with the OG's kind of hamfisted villainy where Pres Shinra just yells "we're not gonna rebuild, raise the mako rates 50 percent hahaha" The fact that this level of poverty might seem tolerable is what allows space for things like the Shinra Middle Manager and the incidental dialogue that's like "can we really be concerned about the environment over the economy" which are really incisive critiques of contemporary liberal thought as of right now
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May 1, 2020 23:41
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Yeah I don’t think the slums were whitewashed at all. There’s community, but that’s realistic. Apart from that the slum is a shithole; there’s monsters just outside the gates, the water isn’t safe to drink without a filter, wall market is characterized as “a place so lawless and lovely that Shinra built a wall around it so they wouldn’t have to think about it too much” and they somehow made Corneo even rapier and horrible in the remake, not that he was such a great guy as a starting point (I do hope we get to push him off a cliff again when we get to Wutai)
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May 1, 2020 23:42
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like the slums are surrounded by mountains of junk and monsters so that going over to the next sector is a significant dangerous journey that you only want to do in daylight, they have to use filters that are replaced constantly for potable water
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May 1, 2020 23:44
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FAUXTON posted:Wtf there's crumbling cement and scrap metal/machinery all over the place, it looks like the topsiders use the undercity as a dump, which is also implied in dialogue. It looks like people with nothing making the best they can out of misery and the only thing missing is one of those piss-yellow tint filters they use in movies to portray "scary poor people city" It’s not even implied, it’s explicit. On the reactor 5 mission, you see pipes belching smog down onto the slums, and Barrett talks about it just to make sure you notice it just in case you miss it. Then there’s the whole thing with the sun lamps being the only source of light.
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May 1, 2020 23:44
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Ainsley McTree posted:It’s not even implied, it’s explicit. On the reactor 5 mission, you see pipes belching smog down onto the slums, and Barrett talks about it just to make sure you notice it just in case you miss it. Then there’s the whole thing with the sun lamps being the only source of light. Yeah he says it's designed to make poo poo roll downhill as fast as possible there iirc, but I wasn't thinking of the air pollution when talking about the fact that they just throw broken cranes down the hole.
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May 1, 2020 23:47
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Ainsley McTree posted:It’s not even implied, it’s explicit. On the reactor 5 mission, you see pipes belching smog down onto the slums, and Barrett talks about it just to make sure you notice it just in case you miss it. Then there’s the whole thing with the sun lamps being the only source of light. Yeah except the air in the slums looks perfectly fine so that smog is apparently completely breathable. You can say that's because the player spending so much time in a gross, grimy shithole would be too depressing but I feel like you need to reinforce that for the narrative to work. Like I said, the game tries to tell you the slums are bad, but they aren't nearly as bad as they could be. I'd rather live in the slums than a lot of places in the real world, and this is suppose to be a capitalistic nightmare with the rich literally building over the poor. If they want more ambiguity in this game then okay but I don't think its gonna work as well as the original did, which is a reoccurring theme here.
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May 1, 2020 23:48
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Internet Kraken posted:I'd rather live in the slums than a lot of places in the real world, and this is suppose to be a capitalistic nightmare with the rich literally building over the poor. Maybe... the Real World is a capitalist nightmare too...?!
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May 1, 2020 23:52
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Internet Kraken posted:Yeah except the air in the slums looks perfectly fine so that smog is apparently completely breathable. You can say that's because the player spending so much time in a gross, grimy shithole would be too depressing but I feel like you need to reinforce that for the narrative to work. Like I said, the game tries to tell you the slums are bad, but they aren't nearly as bad as they could be. I'd rather live in the slums than a lot of places in the real world, and this is suppose to be a capitalistic nightmare with the rich literally building over the poor. I guess I'm just not with you here; I feel like the slums in the game still come across as very ramshackle clusters of shantytowns where people are doing the best they can with what they have, I felt it was pretty faithful to the vibe of the original.
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May 1, 2020 23:58
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I think the graphics at the time need to be taken into account because it's easier to convey "slums" on early PS1 game graphics with people living in pipes and old busses and poo poo, yes, even with prerendered backgrounds. With PS4 graphics, slums and sketchy areas in a city are a lot easier to convey in a way where you could picture a place looking like that in real life because you're expecting it to look more similar to real life.
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May 1, 2020 23:59
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My standards may ultimately be too high for how I wanted them to portray this stuff then.
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May 2, 2020 00:02
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Speaking of Huge materia there’s something I never understood about them in the OG. Were they just side effects of the Mako reactors or were the reactors specifically built to create them? Also I wonder how Master materia will work in the Remakes, if they exist at all. Since materia don’t split when maxed anymore and you can’t get multiple of some it’d be a much bigger sacrifice to give up all your maxed materia of a type. Internet Kraken posted:That's how it was in the original but there are flowers and grass growing in a lot of places in Sector 6. I guess maybe that is all because of Aerith though. Aerith says the church is “a special place”. Maybe it’s above a natural Mako deposit. Presumably her house is the same way. Or it could that the presence of an Ancient nurtures life or something.
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May 2, 2020 00:08
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Internet Kraken posted:My standards may ultimately be too high for how I wanted them to portray this stuff then.
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May 2, 2020 00:37
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The slums look like a pretty loving terrible place to live. Did you see the killer rats, hedgehogs, birds and robots a few feet away from people's homes? Kids are playing in rusty piles of metal (also filled with killer robots). I really don't know what more they could have done to portray it as a capitalist nightmare dump beyond having piles of bodies rotting in the streets. The one almost 'modern' city area there is run by a crime lord who picks women to rape at his whim on a daily basis. The fact that there are real world parallels doesn't suddenly undercut what the game is going for.
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May 2, 2020 00:42
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RatHat posted:Speaking of Huge materia there’s something I never understood about them in the OG. Were they just side effects of the Mako reactors or were the reactors specifically built to create them? Her house and the orphanage, plus I think a decent amount of the connecting alley? Wouldn't be surprised if it's places she feels happy/safe causing mako/the lifestream to kinda draw up like a shallow aquifer
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May 2, 2020 00:48
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RatHat posted:Or it could that the presence of an Ancient nurtures life or something. I'm pretty sure this is explicitly the case. The level of greenery is a pretty good measure for "How much time has Aerith typically spent in each location?"
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May 2, 2020 00:53
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The slums also get artificial lights that will apparently be turned off if an employee needs to use a cargo elevator. You're constantly reminded that you're under Shinra's mercy.
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May 2, 2020 00:56
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I was saying before not all the music landed for me (like Wall Market). But ya know what song they absolutely nail? Don Corneo's mansion. It sounds perfect. It's probably my favorite remaster of one of the original songs
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May 2, 2020 00:57
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So I'm at chapter 7 on Hard and so far it's been pretty easy, I've just had to remember to always use buffs and switch characters constantly Really the best advice, and this goes for anyone having trouble on Normal too, is to always, always leave everyone with an ATB segment available in case you need to heal.
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May 2, 2020 01:00
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My favorite cue is the new version of Anxious Heart playing during the Midgar presentation with Jessie on the train. That whole sequence is just burned into my brain from the last 20 years.
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May 2, 2020 01:00
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There's some charm but the slums are literally all built with trash, has dirt roads or rubble everywhere, and are constructed like shanty towns. As soon as you go up it's quiet, paved roads, cars, a typical developed neighborhood. Not trying to change your mind but poo poo the contrast was pretty drat stark to me.
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May 2, 2020 01:19
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Wild theory time: When Sephiroth stabbed Barret he was infected with Jenova cells and he'll get mind controlled at a critical moment.
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May 2, 2020 01:39
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Barret gonna go Manchurian Candidate and Big Bertha Aerith
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May 2, 2020 01:44
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Internet Kraken posted:My standards may ultimately be too high for how I wanted them to portray this stuff then. It comes across that you’re desperately trying to come up with reasons to not like the game. It’s OK. You can not like the game. Normally I’d be whatever, but you seem to have such an unrealistic view of poverty it’s almost offensive. It’s not always doom and gloom and crushing despair. No one can live that way long term. I’ve been there. My early 20s were loving *bleak*. Living hand to mouth and at some points sleeping in a hollow I made in some bushes at a park. But even then I was able to find hope, and joy, and community. Yes there was fear and uncertainty and wondering if I was ever going to climb out, but it was never that 24/7 even at the worst. The shantytown/slums were probably the most realistic slice of humanity in the game.
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May 2, 2020 01:44
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I think Internet Kraken might not be looking for a realistic depiction of poverty, but an over-the-top, horrific depiction of the Midgar slums that lives up to the constantly-dark, dangerous depiction in the original, whether or not it's realistic. I can see why they might want that, but that's clearly at odds with what this game was going for (to try to create a version of Midgar that feels real when you're running around in it even if it's still clearly a fantastical setting. Personally I think the game would've just been too oppressive to want to spend time in, for my own tastes at least, but that's a separate question.
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May 2, 2020 01:57
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I mean hell, even the people living in the slums in the original game were attempting to make the most of things. I remember a Tim Rogers bit where we see the "This guy are sick" dude living in the pipe and he says, "I dunno, I think I could live pretty comfortably in this pipe....it's got a TV...got a place to hang your laundry...I think I could make it pretty cozy." Life finds a way.
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May 2, 2020 01:58
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Harrow posted:I think Internet Kraken might not be looking for a realistic depiction of poverty, but an over-the-top, horrific depiction of the Midgar slums that lives up to the constantly-dark, dangerous depiction in the original, whether or not it's realistic. I can see why they might want that, but that's clearly at odds with what this game was going for (to try to create a version of Midgar that feels real when you're running around in it even if it's still clearly a fantastical setting. This is pretty much what I was trying to say. I'm not saying its unrealistic for poor people to try and live positive lives in spite of their conditions. Its just not the kind of atmosphere I thought the original game was going for. I agree it wouldn't really fit with the remake, but that's why I have issues with it. Cause ultimately I think its kind of muddled in what its trying to do. Look at it this way; in the original FF7 the ultimate destruction of Midgar feels like a necessity, and that the city itself is flawed and cannot stand. That's why it gets reduced to ruin even though the people ultimately survive (well hopefully). I very much doubt that is going to happen at the end of this series. They seem to be trying to build up Reeve as the more sympathetic person in Shinra that will probably lead Midgar to a future that isn't so destructive. Also I don't think the remake is a bad game... I just don't think its as narratively strong as the original, and part of me talking about it is trying to piece together why (aside from the obvious stuff).
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May 2, 2020 02:06
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I feel like Whisper Harbringer should've been called Whisper Weapon or Fate Weapon or something. It's a giant entity that the planet created to protect itself right? Then isn't it technically a Weapon?
RatHat fucked around with this message at 02:14 on May 2, 2020 |
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May 2, 2020 02:08
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Internet Kraken posted:This is pretty much what I was trying to say. I'm not saying its unrealistic for poor people to try and live positive lives in spite of their conditions. Its just not the kind of atmosphere I thought the original game was going for. I agree it wouldn't really fit with the remake, but that's why I have issues with it. Cause ultimately I think its kind of muddled in what its trying to do. Ok, I misunderstood and apologize for coming down on you. I get what you’re saying now. I don’t necessarily agree, but I do understand where you’re coming from now.
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May 2, 2020 02:09
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| # ? May 29, 2024 20:06 |
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https://twitter.com/aitaikimochi/status/1256217127457099776 whole thread, but the important point. https://twitter.com/aitaikimochi/status/1256221924532916228
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May 2, 2020 02:18
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