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Kraftwerk posted:Serious question. Is there an actual road to a leftist third party? I’m not even talking about all the weirdo kooky third parties that exist but one that could be a major electoral alternative to the democrats? I’m asking this since it seems taking over the Dems from within doesn’t work and the primary process seems to exist just to generate a thin veneer of democracy. With the current system being first past the post, the structural eventuality will always end up being two opposing sides because of how the game is constructed. If a third party were somehow to bypass all the obstacles and take one of the top spots, one of the other (or both of the) current parties would dissolve. It is possible to change the democratic party into something else, but the main roadblocks to that are entrenched interests that have significantly more power and institutional inertia and money than we do, and there's little in the way of existing structures that could effectively expand themselves to the necessary size in the immediate sense. If your goal is to make things better without tearing the system apart, the best road map is one that starts locally and grows outward. That may not be political office, though. It might be community service groups that buy, share, and dispense food and other items, or it might be through community outreach via tutelage or child care for people who otherwise wouldn't have it. There's no quick fix to our little collection of systemic problems, unfortunately, but there's a lot to be done. And even a lot that any individual person can do, if they had the inclination (or resources, tbf).
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May 3, 2020 21:40
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They’re pushing the Biden crime family connections to China right now because of the epidemic, and will for the foreseeable future. They are going to bring up rigging the primaries closer to the general election has more media stories about Republican efforts to disenfranchise voters. Also assuming Biden allows debates, I’m sure a bunch of attack ads will be deployed based on the specific line of attacks used there.
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May 3, 2020 21:41
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Kraftwerk posted:Serious question. Is there an actual road to a leftist third party? I’m not even talking about all the weirdo kooky third parties that exist but one that could be a major electoral alternative to the democrats? I’m asking this since it seems taking over the Dems from within doesn’t work and the primary process seems to exist just to generate a thin veneer of democracy. The last time there was a successful third party push was the birth of the Republican Party and the collapse of the Whig Party. In 1852 the president was a Whig, in 1854 the Republican Party was founded, in 1856 the Whig party was dead, and, famously, in 1860 the country elected a Republican president. The idea that the birth of a leftist party results in splitting the anti-republican vote for decades isn't really based on anything other than gut feelings.
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May 3, 2020 21:45
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I. M. Gei posted:No seriously WHEN IS THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN GONNA START PUSHING THE DNC’S SABOTAGE OF BERNIE IN ATTACK ADS??? WHY ARE THEY NOT DOING IT ALREADY????? They’re saving this for after the conventions dude.
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May 3, 2020 21:46
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Expect the GOP to focus hard on trans kids and sports.
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May 3, 2020 21:49
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I. M. Gei posted:No seriously WHEN IS THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN GONNA START PUSHING THE DNC’S SABOTAGE OF BERNIE IN ATTACK ADS??? WHY ARE THEY NOT DOING IT ALREADY????? When the DNC can't do anything to replace Biden. If you air that poo poo now, Bernie has shown enough decorum-brain that he might agree to be 'less socialist' and become the replacement for the trash fire of a candidate Biden is with some concessions and repubs are afraid of that. Or they could replace him with someone of the same ilk but not as much of a trash fire. They can bring out those ads after the dust has settled, right before the general. It's very much in the R's interest to let Biden stumble close enough to the finish line so they can go for the jugular. dex_sda fucked around with this message at 21:54 on May 3, 2020 |
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May 3, 2020 21:51
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My god, imagine this guy debating Trump https://twitter.com/PopulismUpdates/status/1257049753143046144?s=20
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May 3, 2020 21:56
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Eminai posted:The last time there was a successful third party push was the birth of the Republican Party and the collapse of the Whig Party. In 1852 the president was a Whig, in 1854 the Republican Party was founded, in 1856 the Whig party was dead, and, famously, in 1860 the country elected a Republican president. The idea that the birth of a leftist party results in splitting the anti-republican vote for decades isn't really based on anything other than gut feelings. In those days politics was much more regional, which among other reasons might've enabled the Republican party takeover. I mean, Lincoln won a four-way race in 1860.
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May 3, 2020 21:58
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Howie Hawkins has great policies, seems like a nice guy, but Corbyn and Bernie have proved that nice old men aren't going to accomplish anything. We need a fighter.
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May 3, 2020 22:01
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Kraftwerk posted:Serious question. Is there an actual road to a leftist third party? I’m not even talking about all the weirdo kooky third parties that exist but one that could be a major electoral alternative to the democrats? I’m asking this since it seems taking over the Dems from within doesn’t work and the primary process seems to exist just to generate a thin veneer of democracy. The Republican Party was technically formed in 1854, by 1860 they won the presidency. Obviously, extremely different times and situation. But I think things look impossible until they don't, and then suddenly they look inevitable. I'm still on "take over the Democrats" rather than form a 3rd party, but if that's what needs to happen, that's what will happen. The unrest isn't going to go away. Whatever fueled Bernie is growing. Whatever fueled Biden and Trump is dying.
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May 3, 2020 22:03
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Gripweed posted:My god, imagine this guy debating Trump In a head to head match up Ventura beat Trump, wouldn't he? Is Ventura very extremely lovely? I kind of just assumed so but that's a good clip. Should I be rooting for him to get the Green nomination?
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May 3, 2020 22:08
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Jesse shouldn't run for the Green party because quite frankly a better candidate is already securing the nom in the party and that is Howie Hawkins. He should see about working with Howie on his campaign instead of killing it.
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May 3, 2020 22:26
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I dunno, I've seen a few Howie videos and while I like his policies, he's pretty boring. Assuming Jesse isn't a milkshake duck, he's got the kind of energy I like to see in a politician.
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May 3, 2020 22:31
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ManBoyChef posted:Where do we go from here though? Without working within this center right party there is no pathway to power for people that actually care about the citizens of this country. I think the establishment Democrats didn't realize that choosing Biden would further split the party.
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May 3, 2020 22:31
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Ershalim posted:If your goal is to make things better without tearing the system apart, the best road map is one that starts locally and grows outward. That may not be political office, though. It might be community service groups that buy, share, and dispense food and other items, or it might be through community outreach via tutelage or child care for people who otherwise wouldn't have it.
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May 3, 2020 22:40
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:Local Democratic orgs are also extremely resistant to change and filled to the brim with boring old shitbags with less interest in policy than even the DNC pretends to have. Obviously it's true that individually they don't have the institutional power and inertia that the national party has, but there are also more of them, and we have fewer resources at each local level, as well. I'm not quite at the point where I've given up on entryism, but I'm through with the idea that we could share power with liberals - you see what that got us - and I'm not sure how you do entryism if you aren't going to do that. Definitely. I agree with that, and hesitate to recommend political action like that to people because it very often results in good people becoming apolitical after being shut out of every decision, particularly after some progress has been made. "Thanks for your time and donations, goodbye!" I meant what I said about political power not necessarily coming from some kind of office -- it may be necessary to exercise it through community means that are wholly divorced from the national organ and broker that into a way of getting your demands met. Again, that was my advice assuming we want to keep the system intact. Goon ideology seems to favor current-representative-democracy-but-better. But there are definitely other options, too.
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May 3, 2020 22:49
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Hellblazer187 posted:In a head to head match up Ventura beat Trump, wouldn't he? i mean, he ran a conspiracy theory tv show and seems to be into some crazy stuff. i don't think that makes him a lovely person, but i do remember him referring to himself as "a goldwater republican" at some point which is pretty scary. I'm guessing that's in his past though so whatever the case, he's not as bad as biden or trump or obama, and probably better than any other politician with name recognition to serve within the last few decades
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May 3, 2020 22:50
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:Local Democratic orgs are also extremely resistant to change and filled to the brim with boring old shitbags with less interest in policy than even the DNC pretends to have. yes. When I still lived in the US I went to the local democrat meeting and it was full of people going "actually divided government is good" and I never came back. I'm watching a longer interview with Ventura. I already hate him, but hate him less than Trump. The question is do I hate him less than Biden?
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May 3, 2020 22:51
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Hellblazer187 posted:In a head to head match up Ventura beat Trump, wouldn't he? He tried to unionize pro wrestling, he met with Fidel Castro and opposed the embargo, he said he would prosecute everyone in the Bush administration who was involved in torture, he said his first act as president would be deep cuts to defense spending, and he supports legalizing prostitution. As a candidate, specifically, he understands kayfabe and knows how to cut a promo and I 100% unironically think that is an incredibly powerful tool to have in 2020.
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May 3, 2020 22:53
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https://twitter.com/PopulismUpdates/status/1257040185142898688?s=19 Honestly Jessie is the best candidate you've got. He hasn't even done a rape.
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May 3, 2020 22:58
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is pepsi ok posted:He understands kayfabe and knows how to cut a promo and I 100% unironically think that is an incredibly powerful tool to have in 2020. I mean it pretty adequately describes how the last two presidents won. If he gets in, I hope they run head to head polling with him against Trump. I'd be really curious.
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May 3, 2020 22:59
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is pepsi ok posted:He tried to unionize pro wrestling, he met with Fidel Castro and opposed the embargo, he said he would prosecute everyone in the Bush administration who was involved in torture, he said his first act as president would be deep cuts to defense spending, and he supports legalizing prostitution. What are his opinions on vaccines, mental health, and psychiatry? Yes, this is an honest question.
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May 3, 2020 23:03
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DelilahFlowers posted:Jesse shouldn't run for the Green party because quite frankly a better candidate is already securing the nom in the party and that is Howie Hawkins. He should see about working with Howie on his campaign instead of killing it. We need to think about electability. A nice old man named "Howie" ain't gonna win.
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May 3, 2020 23:07
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I. M. Gei posted:What are his opinions on vaccines, mental health, and psychiatry? https://twitter.com/GovJVentura/status/621381385014546432
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May 3, 2020 23:10
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Ague Proof posted:Expect the GOP to focus hard on trans kids and sports. Broke: vote blue no matter who Woke: arming the queers
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May 3, 2020 23:10
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I. M. Gei posted:What are his opinions on vaccines, mental health, and psychiatry? Not good. He's said he supports vaccines but does a lot of JAQ about it, and he said some really stupid tough guy poo poo about suicide back in '99.
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May 3, 2020 23:12
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I. M. Gei posted:What are his opinions on vaccines http://www.ora.tv/offthegrid/2015/2/16/jesse-ventura-owns-body-0_73ocwuuqmaac Here's his answer. It's not great, although somewhat understandable if his daughter is in fact one of the small percent of people who had seizures as a result of DTP vaccine.
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May 3, 2020 23:12
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Hellblazer187 posted:. But I think things look impossible until they don't, and then suddenly they look inevitable. The word for this is kairos. When it’s kairos anything is possible.
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May 3, 2020 23:13
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Gripweed posted:We need to think about electability. A nice old man named "Howie" ain't gonna win. He'd be electable if you vote for him
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May 3, 2020 23:14
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Gonzo McFee posted:https://twitter.com/PopulismUpdates/status/1257040185142898688?s=19 Wild that he became a better promo after getting out of wrestling
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May 3, 2020 23:15
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I think I can put in words something I’ve been thinking finally. The conflation of fascism with liberalism is bullshit. Socialism is preferable to both. But one of the bad options is preferable to the other. It benefits fascists to conflate the two. Capitalism was after all preferable to feudalism and consequently is preferable to a conservative romanticism (eg fascism).
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May 3, 2020 23:20
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DelilahFlowers posted:He'd be electable if you vote for him No that's not how it works. Someone needs more than just my vote to get elected
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May 3, 2020 23:22
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ManBoyChef posted:Yeah this is exactly how I feel now. It has taken a many years to get to the point that I am just angry and I am sick of how this party handles things. I am fed up with being in a hostage situation. If they try to blame me I am going to tell them to blame the party that chose Biden to be the nominee because I sure didn't and I will not be shamed for not voting for someone I think is just going to be more of the same bullshit that has caused so many problems for quite a lot of people. Yes Trump is a threat but you would think if the Democrats really believed that they would have taken it a little more seriously the whole time they were in opposition to him. I am also really sick of the media too. They are the enemy of the people but not for the reason that Trump says. Bad press is not a bad thing. Willfully propagandizing people in order to ensure rich people maintain their power and hold over the country is just completely hosed up. They used to hold power accountable, now they are the mouthpiece for power. Exactly, when the party does everything in their power to ensure that the absolute worst most likely to be “both sides’d” to death candidate wins, while also assuring that the process isn’t even remotely democratic, that they kill their own voters, and that they care more about Bernie losing than Trump winning, it should be obvious that the party doesn’t actually care about winning. And I almost put winning in “” because winning to them mean team blue wins and that’s literally it. I agree with the people here that think 8 years of Biden might actually be worse than four years of Trump even if we’re not guaranteed anything better in four years and the short term harm reduction might be slightly better under Biden (debatable). Idk if Trump winning again because of everything I mentioned above would do enough to shatter faith in the dem propaganda networks and the idea that they understand “electability” and are the “grownups” of the party but at this point I have zero interest in helping them anymore. I’m sure folks like Sam Seder and the more centrist types on here would disagree with this strategy but it’s not exactly like the short term harm reduction followed by another decade of rightward shifting is unlikely if Biden wins because that’s what we’ve seen for like four decades now. TrixR4kids fucked around with this message at 23:26 on May 3, 2020 |
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May 3, 2020 23:23
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Bar Ran Dun posted:I think I can put in words something I’ve been thinking finally. The libs aren't doing a god drat thing to stop the fascists, Joe Biden will work with Republicans and is on record as such
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May 3, 2020 23:24
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Bar Ran Dun posted:I think I can put in words something I’ve been thinking finally. liberalism isn't the same as fascism, it just inevitably leads to fascism and liberals will support fascism
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May 3, 2020 23:28
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Bar Ran Dun posted:I think I can put in words something I’ve been thinking finally. Who's conflating the two? The general argument as to why socialists and leftists in general shouldn't ally with liberals isn't that liberals are the same as fascists, it's that when presented the choice between siding with the right or the left they're going to side with the right because both want to preserve capitalism. Which is a thing that has happened multiple times in history. In the end they have more in common, liberals don't want things to fundamentally change and fascists can make the promise that things won't fundamentally change for them. The left can't, for good reason, make the same promise.
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May 3, 2020 23:29
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Liberalism is what you call capitalism during the periods when it is able to keep its internal contradictions in check. Fascism is what you call it when it can't.
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May 3, 2020 23:31
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Ague Proof posted:Expect the GOP to focus hard on trans kids and sports. I don't think they will, given that the Dems are pretty much on the same page regarding trans everything.
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May 3, 2020 23:32
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Bar Ran Dun posted:I think I can put in words something I’ve been thinking finally. You're entirely right. They are two different things. But in terms of outcomes, liberalism venerates existing power above all else, tolerates fascism, and hates the left. And because liberalism tolerates fascism, liberalism must inevitably be subsumed or destroyed by resurgent fascism, because that's what fascism does to everything if it has enough time. Have you seen how many rule of law places are currently being occupied by 2nd amendment idiots with guns? That's liberalism quite deliberately getting out of the way of fascism. The two aren't the same, but liberalism is not your ally against fascism. They will bend the knee the second they see it as a viable option to gain and/or keep power. E: Liberalism is preferable to fascism, but if you have fascism and liberalism, you will eventually have only fascism and fascism-with-a-smile. Maybe not immediately, but that's just a matter of the liberals getting out of the way enough. Somfin fucked around with this message at 23:45 on May 3, 2020 |
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May 3, 2020 23:42
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Bar Ran Dun posted:I think I can put in words something I’ve been thinking finally. Lenin, in 1914 posted:With the formation, in 1868, of the government of Gladstone—that hero of the liberal bourgeoisie and obtuse philistines—the era of reform in Ireland set in, an era which has dragged on very nicely till the present day, i.e., just under half a century. Oh, the wise statesmen of the liberal bourgeoisie are very well able to “make haste slowly” in the matter of reform! Liberals are the water boys of fascism, growing fat on past atrocities and feigning horror after the fact as they promise to Fix These Horrible Wrongs and drag their feet forever, allowing the pain and misery to continue while acting as a steam valve for public pressure. You can't get mad, we're in the middle of fixing it! Please ignore that we've been "reducing harm" for 50 years and have gently caress all to show for it, The System Is Working! Liberals allow fascism to happen with their inaction and then, once the deed is done, cement fascist outcomes with their purposeful inaction. If anything, pretending that they aren't two sides of the same coin is the surest way to make sure that fascists and fascism always win.
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May 3, 2020 23:46
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