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Is a dumb derail, but at least is good to remind us that the main reason we can't compare our democracies to theirs is that ours are always under attack. By them Not to change everything on the USA, but a good number of the problems in our democracies are directly caused by their interference. And then some also arise from trying to defend from it
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May 5, 2020 15:03
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Cerebral Bore posted:Fixed for accuracy. "Inherently unable to match the accomplishments of the first world", some lovely strawman that is, and something that I've also never said, nor would I ever really say, being Latin American. Nevermind that the only person calling Latin America a generic mass of "brown people" is you. Latin American democracies are however, very alike in one way that is distinct from America. They're all young democracies. Their institutions are weak due to constant military coups eroding trust in civilian governments, in the case of Bolivia, there's a history of fraudulent elections. Compared to America, which has never had to deal with military governments, or has had contested presidential elections (Beyond like, Dubya 1 and the 1876 election), that has allowed trust in institutions to cement, improving transparency.
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May 5, 2020 15:04
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fnox posted:"Inherently unable to match the accomplishments of the first world", some lovely strawman that is, and something that I've also never said, nor would I ever really say, being Latin American. Nevermind that the only person calling Latin America a generic mass of "brown people" is you. Do you think that people can't go back and read your posts or something? You literally started this whole dumb argument by claiming that the very idea that Bolivia could possibly have more fair elections than noted sham democracy America is inherently ludicrous, and at no point have you pointed out any actual problems with Bolivia's electoral system, instead opting to talk about Latin America as a whole. So according to you Latin American countries are basically interchangeable and they cannot ever measure up to even the most transparently rigged electoral system among the Herrenvolk. Do explain how this totally isn't a racist assumption, though.
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May 5, 2020 15:17
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Cerebral Bore posted:Do you think that people can't go back and read your posts or something? You literally started this whole dumb argument by claiming that the very idea that Bolivia could possibly have more fair elections than noted sham democracy America is inherently ludicrous, and at no point have you pointed out any actual problems with Bolivia's electoral system, instead opting to talk about Latin America as a whole. So according to you Latin American countries are basically interchangeable and they cannot ever measure up to even the most transparently rigged electoral system among the Herrenvolk. Do explain how this totally isn't a racist assumption, though. Well you see, I never actually mentioned the Herrenvolk, because not only am I not part of the Herrenvolk, nor am I talking about the Herrenvolk, nor was anybody talking about the Herrenvolk, but also it seems like every time you say the word Herrenvolk it is to imply that whoever disagrees with you is some sort of a nazi. Which makes you sound like a parody of a leftist. And I'm not sure how you actually expect any serious debate to happen this way.
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May 5, 2020 15:27
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Dias posted:you know we're probably all "brown" here under the lens of USA racial politics, right The Swedes are brown under the lens of US racial politics.
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May 5, 2020 15:32
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Yea OK buddy, I'm sure that if you just try hard enough to make this about me or the words I use people aren't going to notice that you still haven't produced any kind of actual argument to support your position.
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May 5, 2020 15:33
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Cerebral Bore posted:Yea OK buddy, I'm sure that if you just try hard enough to make this about me or the words I use people aren't going to notice that you still haven't produced any kind of actual argument to support your position. The words you're using are labelling me a nazi. You know what you're doing, you're not arguing in good faith.
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May 5, 2020 15:39
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forkboy84 posted:Yeah, I came here to see someone try and defend the Bay of Piglets lmao I figured this thread could find the comedy in this, but apparently not
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May 5, 2020 15:58
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https://twitter.com/camilateleSUR/status/1257494648035119104?s=20 Maduro just showed these assclown's dmv photos to the world lol
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May 5, 2020 16:02
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Who goes on a secret raid with their passport, driver's license, loving veteran ID? Did he pack some crayons too, for a snack?
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May 5, 2020 16:10
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DelilahFlowers posted:Maduro just showed these assclown's dmv photos to the world lol
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May 5, 2020 16:10
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DelilahFlowers posted:https://twitter.com/camilateleSUR/status/1257494648035119104?s=20 bringing your passport with you on a terrorist attack lmao wtf
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May 5, 2020 16:12
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fnox posted:Who goes on a secret raid with their passport, driver's license, loving veteran ID? Did he pack some crayons too, for a snack? Given they advertised the incursion on their company's twitter account, I'm not sure it was a "secret" raid
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May 5, 2020 16:12
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fnox posted:Who goes on a secret raid with their passport, driver's license, loving veteran ID? Did he pack some crayons too, for a snack? I am starting to think that Donald Trump is maybe not very competent
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May 5, 2020 16:14
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Kurnugia posted:you will lose to finns. fight me bitch, finland is the worst shithole at the end of the world Finland has one of the most solid social safety nets in the world, even after they dabbled with gutting them under a right wing administration which thankfully was so tone deaf and incompetent that everyone went heck no and kicked them out the next election. They are a leading country on a host of quality of life and education measures even while being middle of the pack on the OECD income wise. DelilahFlowers posted:Maduro just showed these assclown's dmv photos to the world lol Man, what is it with ex-special forces dumbasses. Did they mention in their tweet who paid for the adventure as well? I heartily approve of the "Bay of Piglets" moniker. Munin fucked around with this message at 16:21 on May 5, 2020 |
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May 5, 2020 16:16
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For the record, Silvercorp's online presence seems to have been established in February 2018. So they're new, but not suspiciously new. Here's their company website.
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May 5, 2020 16:19
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fnox posted:improving transparency. Or ignorant complacency but whichever works. The problem with the US, among many others, is that their corruption is just legalized and accepted, so it seems to be functioning, and it is, because that was the intent of the people making the rules. Latin American constitutions having been in a lot of times re-written or revised rather recently (as should be the case because who defines themselves by a piece of paper written 300 years ago?), are really idealistic and great. It's just the people who're supposed to support, protect, and use them often don't, so they come off as corrupt and horrible. The US looks ok in comparison. That said I don't think that dissidents in the US face quite as much the same risk as people in Latin America, in spite of the fact that the population is massively and legally armed. That's not to ignore the facts of what is happening, but there was a genuine coup just a few months ago in Bolivia with death threats for the democratically elected president and his followers. I cannot see that happening the US despite its many many problems (until it does). Munin posted:Finland has one of the most solid social safety nets in the world, even after they dabbled with gutting them under a right wing administration which thankfully was so tone deaf and incompetent that everyone went heck no and kicked them out the next election. They are a leading country on a host of quality of life and education measures even while being middle of the pack on the OECD income wise. They may be speaking geographically. It does seem like a frozen wasteland. I remember seeing someone in the metro reading a book titled "So, You're Going to Work in Finland" and that first 'so' just had so much desperation and horror in it alone. The fact that the book wasn't neutrally titled "Working in Finland" was very telling.
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May 5, 2020 16:20
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VitalSigns posted:I am starting to think that Donald Trump is maybe not very competent Nah, if this was actually US government sponsored, they wouldn't send two guys. Seems like this Jordan Goudreau guy somehow roped these two guys to launch an "amphibious assault" consisting of a single peñero being sent a couple states in the wrong direction of Caracas. If the actual US military were involved, you'd see a carrier group. The dudes who actually did land close to Caracas, in Macuto, didn't fare much better. There's pictures of the corpse of Captain Robert Colina Ibarra, alias "Panther", and it seems like his skull was crushed with a blunt object.
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May 5, 2020 16:24
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fnox posted:You had the audacity of comparing third world democracies with America. That analogue that you're using for calling me racist without any justification is adorable too. who did the massacring, exactly
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May 5, 2020 16:24
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LOL at defending US democracy as an example in this thread of all places. If any Latin American country had a system where the presidential candidate with less votes regularly won elections it'd be sanctioned and liberated very quickly, hell, if any Latin American country only allowed two very similar parties to compete for leadership it'd be constantly called out for supressing political movements. Yanks have a 3rd world political system, just go ask MLK's ghost about freedom of expression.fnox posted:Who goes on a secret raid with their passport, driver's license, loving veteran ID? Did he pack some crayons too, for a snack? That's one of the least dumb things in that whole Mickey Mouse operation, it is a way to say it might be inconvenient if he's forgotten in a dungeon. ZearothK fucked around with this message at 16:30 on May 5, 2020 |
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May 5, 2020 16:26
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fnox posted:Who goes on a secret raid with their passport, driver's license, loving veteran ID? Did he pack some crayons too, for a snack? The CIA have a history of being dumb as poo poo
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May 5, 2020 16:28
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100YrsofAttitude posted:That said I don't think that dissidents in the US face quite as much the same risk as people in Latin America, in spite of the fact that the population is massively and legally armed. That's not to ignore the facts of what is happening, but there was a genuine coup just a few months ago in Bolivia with death threats for the democratically elected president and his followers. I cannot see that happening the US despite its many many problems (until it does). Pictures of armed mobs occupying a state capitol building were definitely uncomfortable in that regard. Trust in US institutions is being eroded and that won't end up in a lot of fun for anyone unless it gets remedied. And yeah, lol at the idea of US activist facing the same risks as Central or South American activists for environmental or indigenous causes. They regularly end up shot when they achieve any kind of success or prominence from their work on the ground. 100YrsofAttitude posted:They may be speaking geographically. It does seem like a frozen wasteland. I remember seeing someone in the metro reading a book titled "So, You're Going to Work in Finland" and that first 'so' just had so much desperation and horror in it alone. The fact that the book wasn't neutrally titled "Working in Finland" was very telling. Helsinki is no more of a frozen wasteland than Stockholm and you'll have to deal with dark winters wherever you are. It's also getting noticably warmer over there recently...
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May 5, 2020 16:30
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Two of the last four presidents lost the popular vote, the democrat primaries were loaded with exit poll irregularities which wildly outstripped the supposed irregularities in Bolivia’s elections. Chicago PD has torture sites, the US government runs concentration camps for hispanic people, and Georgia’s gubernatorial campaign was a joke, and that’s all just off the top of my head fnox, maybe you should listen to actual US citizens telling you about actual corruption in their country instead of dismissing their lived experience.
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May 5, 2020 16:36
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uninterrupted posted:Two of the last four presidents lost the popular vote, the democrat primaries were loaded with exit poll irregularities which wildly outstripped the supposed irregularities in Bolivia’s elections. Chicago PD has torture sites, the US government runs concentration camps for hispanic people, and Georgia’s gubernatorial campaign was a joke, and that’s all just off the top of my head we will basically never know who won Iowa this year lol
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May 5, 2020 16:39
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Cup Runneth Over posted:we will basically never know who won Iowa this year lol oh gently caress I can't believe I forgot that a candidate for office paid for the software that was supposed to tally the votes lmao
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May 5, 2020 16:41
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forkboy84 posted:The CIA have a history of being dumb as poo poo While this is very true, I'm going to guess that the CIA wasn't even involved in this, and that it was cobbled together entirely within the White House.
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May 5, 2020 16:46
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fnox posted:Who goes on a secret raid with their passport, driver's license, loving veteran ID? Did he pack some crayons too, for a snack? The type of person who would work on behalf of Juan Guaido.
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May 5, 2020 16:50
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Flip Yr Wig posted:While this is very true, I'm going to guess that the CIA wasn't even involved in this, and that it was cobbled together entirely within the White House. In 2019, a crack national security advisor was fired by the president for trying to overthrow every government in the world. This man promptly escaped from a comfortable retirement to the pundit circuit. Today, still out of favour with the government, he survives as a soldier of fortune. If you have a developing country to invade, if no one else can help, and if you can find him, maybe you can hire... John Bolton.
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May 5, 2020 16:52
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ZearothK posted:LOL at defending US democracy as an example in this thread of all places. If any Latin American country had a system where the presidential candidate with less votes regularly won elections it'd be sanctioned and liberated very quickly, hell, if any Latin American country only allowed two very similar parties to compete for leadership it'd be constantly called out for supressing political movements. Yanks have a 3rd world political system, just go ask MLK's ghost about freedom of expression. Don't be disingenuous, the US has now had centuries of order transfer of power. It is still on its first constitution and republic. It is the kind of institutional strength and stability that most other countries can only dream about. One of the annoying throwbacks of that is that, indeed, you still have FPTP etc instead of proportional representation unlike more modern republics. You have the same kind of issue in the UK where BoJo got a the largest Tory majority in something like a century (56% of the seats on 42% of the votes vs Labour with 40% of the seats with 40% of the votes) due to FPTP and how exactly the votes were distributed across constituencies. The Tory and liberal press of course parlayed that into being a huge solid electoral mandate for him to do whatever he wanted. On your other point. Mexico was ruled for decades under what was effectively a one party system. Chile under Pinochet was a bastion of electoral integrity of course. That was all unchallenged by the US. It's almost as if the governments attitude to the US and their political leaning had more to do with them being opposed and challenged by the US than their institutional strength and setup. Shocking! vyelkin posted:In 2019, a crack national security advisor was fired by the president for trying to overthrow every government in the world. This man promptly escaped from a comfortable retirement to the pundit circuit. Today, still out of favour with the government, he survives as a soldier of fortune. If you have a developing country to invade, if no one else can help, and if you can find him, maybe you can hire... John Bolton. Why pick John Bolton when you have Eric Prince hanging around the Trump administration like a bad smell.
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May 5, 2020 16:57
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vyelkin posted:In 2019, a crack national security advisor was fired by the president for trying to overthrow every government in the world. This man promptly escaped from a comfortable retirement to the pundit circuit. Today, still out of favour with the government, he survives as a soldier of fortune. If you have a developing country to invade, if no one else can help, and if you can find him, maybe you can hire... John Bolton. Doug Feith gets to be Faceman.
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May 5, 2020 16:59
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you heard of 'stupid watergate', now check out the hot new thing, 'stupid bay of pigs'
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May 5, 2020 17:01
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fnox posted:Who goes on a secret raid with their passport, driver's license, loving veteran ID? Did he pack some crayons too, for a snack? Why wouldn’t they? Best case, they win and it doesn’t matter. Worst case, you get caught, can immediately identify as american, and probably prevent someone from breaking a glass thermometer while it’s in your dick hole.
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May 5, 2020 17:08
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Munin posted:Why pick John Bolton when you have Eric Prince hanging around the Trump administration like a bad smell. Because he tweeted this like two days before the recent incompetent invasion attempt https://twitter.com/AmbJohnBolton/status/1256015582689988610
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May 5, 2020 17:09
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vyelkin posted:Because he tweeted this like two days before the recent incompetent invasion attempt Hahaha oh geeze! Wow. The US government is just the loving worst.
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May 5, 2020 17:12
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Squalid posted:
The CEPR report is pretty comprehensive and detailed. And given that you can't find any sources contradicting it, and that you freely admit that you lack context or basic knowledge on the issue, it doesn't sound like you have any reason to discount it. Actually, it's weird that you even brought up Haiti in the first place if you knew so little about it that you had to fall back on pleading ignorance as soon as you were challenged on it. If the sum total of your position is "here's what I found on Wikipedia", then why the hell are you even trying to discuss the intricacies of the subject? The only thing you seem to know is that any information that contradicts your opinion doesn't count, and that the goalposts can be moved as many times as necessary. You say that the OAS has no power, but when confronted with the biggest examples of OAS using their power, you say that it doesn't count. As for your talk about alternate solutions in Haiti, it sure looks like you're saying that democracy isn't necessarily that important after all, and that sometimes an election just has to be stolen and an opposition movement crushed in order to avoid a civil war. All for the sake of stability (as defined by powerful regional actors)! Of course, this completely contradicts your position on how important it was for the OAS to promote democracy in Venezuela and relentlessly pursue all potential electoral irregularities even if it means causing civil war or an attempted coup. Did you get so caught up in defending the OAS's own contradictions and inconsistencies that you didn't notice your own position had done a 180, or is this just a situational ethics situation where the most important factor in any contested election is making sure the leftmost candidate loses?
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May 5, 2020 17:24
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Why are people comparing Bolivia's political freedom to Venezuela? Wouldn't it make more sense to compare Morales's Bolivia to America for a fair comparison being that is what the topic at hand is truly about?
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May 5, 2020 17:29
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Munin posted:And yeah, lol at the idea of US activist facing the same risks as Central or South American activists for environmental or indigenous causes. They regularly end up shot when they achieve any kind of success or prominence from their work on the ground. That's only somewhat true for the moment, but mostly because the establishment has enough power to use the established political institutions to nip any serious reform movement in the bud (I.E. the 2020 democratic primary). If it looks like such a movement actually has legs then yes, a whole lot more people would get shot or disappeared. I mean, that is basically what happened to Black Lives Matter, where multiple people "killed themselves" by shooting themselves twice in the back of the head while bound in a car and then lit the car on fire.
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May 5, 2020 18:14
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Munin posted:Don't be disingenuous, the US has now had centuries of order transfer of power. It is still on its first constitution and republic. It is the kind of institutional strength and stability that most other countries can only dream about. What's so dreamy about sticking stubbornly to an obsolete legal document? Should it still be legal to kill Scotsmen if they're wearing a bow and arrow while in the city of York? The US Constitution, and the quasi-religious status it has acquired, allowing those who call themselves its priests and oracles, is a big part of the rot in the US political scene.
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May 5, 2020 18:17
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Munin posted:On your other point. Mexico was ruled for decades under what was effectively a one party system. Chile under Pinochet was a bastion of electoral integrity of course. That was all unchallenged by the US. It's almost as if the governments attitude to the US and their political leaning had more to do with them being opposed and challenged by the US than their institutional strength and setup. Shocking! Both those regimes are widely considered to have been dictatorships, even if they were convenient for US interests. https://twitter.com/AricToler/status/1257678110742511616 Yeah, these guys were totally going to conquer Venezuela.
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May 5, 2020 18:18
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Main Paineframe posted:The CEPR report is pretty comprehensive and detailed. And given that you can't find any sources contradicting it, and that you freely admit that you lack context or basic knowledge on the issue, it doesn't sound like you have any reason to discount it. Actually, it's weird that you even brought up Haiti in the first place if you knew so little about it that you had to fall back on pleading ignorance as soon as you were challenged on it. If the sum total of your position is "here's what I found on Wikipedia", then why the hell are you even trying to discuss the intricacies of the subject? The only thing you seem to know is that any information that contradicts your opinion doesn't count, and that the goalposts can be moved as many times as necessary. You say that the OAS has no power, but when confronted with the biggest examples of OAS using their power, you say that it doesn't count. My favorite is still dismissing CEPR on the grounds of being unable to "follow the money" while ignoring where the bulk of OAS funding comes from and the background of its current Secretary General.
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