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Jarmak posted:https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/03/02/804873211/whiplash-of-lgbtq-protections-and-rights-from-obama-to-trump Interested to see how Biden’s milquetoast concessions to lgbtq folks will be shredded by Biden’s ultra-fascist sucesor. Remember, he’s not changing the system. Jarmak posted:More bullshit straw-men and personal attacks instead of addressing what I said. How is pointing out that your argument is wrong a straw man argument? You’re claiming that the far-right has no power anymore even as they shred every ostensible check and balance in our government. COVID-19 fucked around with this message at 20:30 on May 5, 2020 |
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May 5, 2020 20:28
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Cloaked posted:I don't understand the swath of people that try to shelter themselves from the pain of voting for a rapist by trying to fully nestle underneath a beep-boop utilitarian mindset and I've seen a fair amount of that in this thread (some further back; I don't catch up on this thread often). Is the point here that if Biden wins he'll normalize this? Because either Trump or Biden are going to win. Wouldn't Trump equally normalize it?
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May 5, 2020 20:28
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RBA Starblade posted:Zero, due to my job. You'll understand if I don't say anything else about that. How many have you made to keep pushing for it? A lot, I hope. Yeah I did knock on a lot of doors for Bernie, it's very strange that you seem super passionate about other people doing work you conveniently "can't" do haha
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May 5, 2020 20:29
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Xombie posted:Is the point here that if Biden wins he'll normalize this? Because either Trump or Biden are going to win. Wouldn't Trump equally normalize it? No because Democrats opposed sexual assault in 2017 when Trump had already won
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May 5, 2020 20:30
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Jarmak posted:https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/03/02/804873211/whiplash-of-lgbtq-protections-and-rights-from-obama-to-trump Thanks for the things I didn't know, and definitely haven't watched the libs do nothing about for the past four years
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May 5, 2020 20:30
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Shere posted:We tried as hard as possible and then Obama made a phone call to install his preferred rapist while the media manufactured the necessary consent by giving him over $100m in free positive press in the span of two days. The system is hosed and working within it will not be permitted, as evidenced by New York cancelling only their presidential primary to deny the left any influential delegates within the system. If you assert that the nefarious Obama and DNC pulled the puppet strings from behind the scenes to defeat Bernie, and that is only reason that Bernie lost, then I do not think that you have a realistic grasp of what actually happened. Bernie couldn't grow his voting base, and the centrists found their candidate to rally around. There's not much left to say.
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May 5, 2020 20:31
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Lemming posted:Yeah I did knock on a lot of doors for Bernie, it's very strange that you seem super passionate about other people doing work you conveniently "can't" do haha My job is not adversarial to that position but the papers I had to sign around canvassing are. But I asked about recently. What've you been up to? I hope you haven't given up.
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May 5, 2020 20:31
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VitalSigns posted:I don't care what he calls me, I'm just saying "I'm not telling you to do X, but if you don't you're as bad as Trump voters" is indeed telling people to do X I didn't say anything like this. I literally, explicitly said "I don't think you're bad for not voting for Joe Biden", in fact.
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May 5, 2020 20:31
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How are u posted:https://joebiden.com/lgbtq/ What politicians say they’ll do is totally meaningless, all that matters is what they’ve done *spends six pages defending Jesse Ventura because he said some nice things recently*
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May 5, 2020 20:31
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How are u posted:If you assert that the nefarious Obama and DNC pulled the puppet strings from behind the scenes to defeat Bernie, and that is only reason that Bernie lost, then I do not think that you have a realistic grasp of what actually happened. Bernie couldn't grow his voting base, and the centrists found their candidate to rally around. There's not much left to say. You could just not vote for the rapist white supremacist. Don’t reward bad behavior.
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May 5, 2020 20:32
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RBA Starblade posted:My job is not adversarial to that position but the papers I had to sign are. But I asked about recently. What've you been up to? I hope you haven't given up. Haha but you just said RBA Starblade posted:That's okay, I'll keep trying for it, but I don't know how likely that is if Trump wins again. How are you trying lol it looks like you're not trying very hard after all, you're just telling other people to try for you lmao!!!
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May 5, 2020 20:32
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Xombie posted:I didn't say anything like this. I literally, explicitly said "I don't think you're bad for not voting for Joe Biden", in fact. you said it's the same as supporting Trump though, unless you mean you don't think supporting Trump is bad
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May 5, 2020 20:33
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VitalSigns posted:you said it's the same as supporting Trump though, unless you mean you don't think supporting Trump is bad No. I didn't say that.
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May 5, 2020 20:34
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Lemming posted:Haha but you just said You got me, I'm definitely doing nothing and working towards nothing. What're you doing?
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May 5, 2020 20:34
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How are u posted:If you assert that the nefarious Obama and DNC pulled the puppet strings from behind the scenes to defeat Bernie, and that is only reason that Bernie lost, then I do not think that you have a realistic grasp of what actually happened. Bernie couldn't grow his voting base, and the centrists found their candidate to rally around. There's not much left to say. Oh, so you don't refute that that's what happened, but that it wasn't the only reason Bernie lost? Super interesting, definitely frames a lot of your other arguments. I agree that Bernie could have called Joe Biden out on his 7 sexual harassment accusations on stage, or maybe not endorsed a rapist, but I'm not going to smear a huge leftist movement because it was actively oppressed. Nothing left to say about Democratic darling Andrew Cuomo & co. cancelling their presidential primary either? What about all that talk about working within the system? What are we supposed to do when the system is actively being blocked by people who are ostensibly on our side.
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May 5, 2020 20:35
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RBA Starblade posted:You got me, I'm definitely doing nothing and working towards nothing. That's basically been the entire point we've been trying to make, yes
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May 5, 2020 20:35
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Lemming posted:That's basically been the entire point we've been trying to make, yes Why can't you answer?
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May 5, 2020 20:35
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Xombie posted:No. I didn't say that. Xombie posted:The Bernie or Bust crowd transferring to wanting Trump to win several months ahead of the schedule I predicted a few weeks ago, I see.
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May 5, 2020 20:36
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COVID-19 posted:How is pointing out that your argument is wrong a straw man argument? You’re claiming that the far-right has no power anymore even as they shred every ostensible check and balance in our government. It's a straw man arguement because I never claimed anything like that. You're attacking my post saying 2016's loss was a outlier and shouldn't be considered a trend yelling about how 2016 doesn't fit into the trend.
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May 5, 2020 20:36
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Yes, thank you. As you can see, I didn't say anything about voting. This is the post I was replying to: quote:I honestly hope biden loses. At first I didn't really care. Now I actively want to see liberals suffer. It is a horrible feeling. Usually I am not so bitter, but these are terrible people. I want to see people that have perverted the idea of the #metoo movement into a political cudgel get their comeuppance. They deserve it. They never cared about anyone and I don't think they care about people that legitimately need help. Which says nothing about voting.
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May 5, 2020 20:36
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RBA Starblade posted:You got me, I'm definitely doing nothing and working towards nothing. Both you and lemming cut this out. Slapfight over claims to personal activism are non arguments.
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May 5, 2020 20:37
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RBA Starblade posted:You got me, I'm definitely doing nothing and working towards nothing. I know you didn’t ask me but I’m voting for a socialist candidate instead of supporting the white senile rapist guy. Yes I know this could describe either of the capitalist party candidates.
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May 5, 2020 20:37
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Xombie posted:Is the point here that if Biden wins he'll normalize this? Because either Trump or Biden are going to win. Wouldn't Trump equally normalize it? Republicans 2016: We do think it is acceptable for our leaders to rape. Democrats 2016: We do not think it is acceptable for our leaders to rape. Republicans 2020: We do think it is acceptable for our leaders to rape. Democrats 2020: We do think it is acceptable for our leaders to rape. See the difference there? (Same thing for trying to steal millions from taxpayers, denying the scale of climate change, deregulating credit card companies, etc)
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May 5, 2020 20:39
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VitalSigns posted:you said it's the same as supporting Trump though, unless you mean you don't think supporting Trump is bad Not voting for Biden is not the same thing as actively hoping he loses. One is remaining neutral, a position that has been criticized from a philosophical standpoint of not opposing evil when you have means to is bad. One is actively hoping for Trump to win.
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May 5, 2020 20:39
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fool of sound posted:Both you and lemming cut this out. Slapfight over claims to personal activism are non arguments. Can we argue against people who are trying to argue that NOT putting time and effort into activism for a specific (rapist, senile, right wing) candidate are actually fascists? Because that's the main thing that I was responding to
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May 5, 2020 20:39
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Shere posted:Oh, so you don't refute that that's what happened, but that it wasn't the only reason Bernie lost? Super interesting, definitely frames a lot of your other arguments. I think there was certainly some institutional bias against Bernie, and I can't even blame the establishment for it when Bernie's campaign (though the man himself was super polite about it, not so much the supporters) was basically "gently caress the establishment, we're coming for your heads, bend the knee". I 1) don't think that that institutional bias was enough to have sunk Bernie on his own if he'd been able to grow his voting base and 2) Bernie's campaign should have done a better job planning for it instead of complaining loudly after the fact. The guy himself is a saint, tho. I'm super proud that he's gone all-in on beating Trump. <3
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May 5, 2020 20:40
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Trabisnikof posted:Democrats 2016: We do not think it is acceptable for our leaders to rape. They had Bill Clinton speaking at the DNC.
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May 5, 2020 20:41
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Jarmak posted:It's a straw man arguement because I never claimed anything like that. Jarmak posted:Trump entire schtick is being the anti-Obama, his only consistent ideology has been undoing everything Obama did. quote:You're attacking my post saying 2016's loss was a outlier and shouldn't be considered a trend yelling about how 2016 doesn't fit into the trend. I have not mentioned the words “trend” or “outlier”, I’m not sure what you’re referring to here.
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May 5, 2020 20:41
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Lemming posted:Can we argue against people who are trying to argue that NOT putting time and effort into activism for a specific (rapist, senile, right wing) candidate are actually fascists? Because that's the main thing that I was responding to Report that cause that's very much attacking posters instead of arguments
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May 5, 2020 20:43
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Jarmak posted:Not voting for Biden is not the same thing as actively hoping he loses. Xombie posted:Yes, thank you. As you can see, I didn't say anything about voting. This is the post I was replying to: yeah I'm pointing out this makes no sense: you're saying that not voting for Biden is fine but only as long as you pointlessly hope he wins anyway in your heart, shouldn't it be the other way around. anyway probably 99% of people who make an affirmative judgment not to vote for him (instead of being apolitical or unable to vote somehow) are doing that because they don't want either Biden or Trump to be president this seems like a really cowardly way to avoid moral responsibility for telling people they need to vote for a rapist, while somehow still giving yourself the satisfaction of judging them anyway
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May 5, 2020 20:47
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I've asked this before in ITT but haven't really gotten a good answer. So, to everyone who considers themselves a liberal, I have a bit of a two part question: 1. Why is it that Donald Trump won the election? Both the Republican primary and the GE? What is it about him and his platform that spoke to around 47% of the population? 2. Does Joe Biden address any of those concerns in such a way as to prevent someone like Trump winning again in the future?
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May 5, 2020 20:47
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https://twitter.com/EoinHiggins_/status/1257484274057576449
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May 5, 2020 20:48
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How are u posted:I think there was certainly some institutional bias against Bernie, and I can't even blame the establishment for it when Bernie's campaign (though the man himself was super polite about it, not so much the supporters) was basically "gently caress the establishment, we're coming for your heads, bend the knee". Why do you keep dodging my question about the cancelled primary elections? How do we work within the system when the people most closely aligned with us are actively shutting that system down to prevent our influence? I'm personally not glad that Bernie endorsed a rapist with 7 other sexual harassment claims to his name at the time of endorsement and I don't think it speaks particularly highly of his character. The only major politician in my lifetime that has claimed his party should be doing significantly better stooped to their level in the final stage of his career and you're viewing that as a victory because Trump exists, as if that's not an indicator of permanent damage inflicted to the Democratic Party by the cheeto in question.
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May 5, 2020 20:50
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Elizabeth Warren is full of poo poo, shocker.
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May 5, 2020 20:51
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Xombie posted:Is the point here that if Biden wins he'll normalize this? Because either Trump or Biden are going to win. Wouldn't Trump equally normalize it? The point is that Biden has already normalized it. The damage has been done, the party of #MeToo is now the party of #VoteBlueNoMatterWhoRapedWho. The question is what else he'll normalize.
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May 5, 2020 20:51
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How are u posted:I think there was certainly some institutional bias against Bernie, and I can't even blame the establishment for it when Bernie's campaign (though the man himself was super polite about it, not so much the supporters) was basically "gently caress the establishment, we're coming for your heads, bend the knee". Are you for real? The Bernie campaign did none of that; hell, Bernie instantly distanced himself from one of his most loyal staffers because she refused to endorse Biden. The idea that Bernie’s campaign should be characterized by loud Twitter leftists is just playing directly into the media smear job against him. I’m with Shere here, I blame Bernie’s campaign for a lot of things, especially the degree to which he approached another election as a saint instead of a fighter after what happened last time. And while I think it’s absurd to imagine they didn’t have a plan for this—the campaign’s actual plan was working really well right up until the former president engineered tens of millions of dollars in “””earned””” media for his former VP—I agree that they zagged where they should’ve zigged, sure. I still think the establishment pushback was determinative in a way that proved that if they wanted to, none of the activists’ efforts mattered at all compared to what the donor class want. But I’ll admit, the thing I’m most mad at Bernie about is his simping for Biden so that people like you can smugly wield him against those of us who were just being castigated for treating him like a cult leader.
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May 5, 2020 20:52
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Shere posted:Why do you keep dodging my question about the cancelled primary elections? How do we work within the system when the people most closely aligned with us are actively shutting that system down to prevent our influence? I don't like what they did in NY and hopefully the voters hold them accountable down the line. I don't think it is some kind of definitive proof you can't work within the system, just means you gotta go from the bottom up and build power so we're the ones in control. Like I have been saying.
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May 5, 2020 20:54
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rko posted:
Well, we fundamentally disagree on this point.
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May 5, 2020 20:56
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VitalSigns posted:yeah I'm pointing out this makes no sense: you're saying that not voting for Biden is fine but only as long as you pointlessly hope he wins anyway in your heart, shouldn't it be the other way around. There is only one possible outcome of Biden losing, and that's Trump winning. Hoping Biden loses is beyond protest voting or simply refusing to take part. It is actively wanting the outcome of Trump winning. quote:anyway probably 99% of people who make an affirmative judgment not to vote for him (instead of being apolitical or unable to vote somehow) are doing that because they don't want either Biden or Trump to be president Neither Biden or Trump becoming president is not a realistic outcome. quote:this seems like a really cowardly way to avoid moral responsibility for telling people they need to vote for a rapist, while somehow still giving yourself the satisfaction of judging them anyway I don't think you're bad for not voting for Joe Biden. There may be people who think that using your vote in protest is actively encouraging the eventual outcome. I do not. If you don't want to vote for Joe Biden, don't vote for him. It's your vote.
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May 5, 2020 20:56
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How are u posted:What part of "Bend the Knee" is compromising? If it felt to you like people were attacking you personally, consider that you probably identify with e.g. Neera Tanden or whatever, a bit more than is healthy (which is to say, at all).
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May 5, 2020 20:57
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Come on, now.