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Mumbling posted:I thought it was fixed in yellow? Not from what I read on Bulbapedia but it wouldn't be the first time Bulbapedia was wrong. And yeah lick of Garbage with a capital G but thematically it belongs on Lickitung.
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May 6, 2020 18:55
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| # ? Jun 11, 2024 07:39 |
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Charizard not learning Fly was fixed in Yellow
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May 6, 2020 19:12
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You’re right it’s only gen 2 and beyond. I was almost positive it was amongst the move set changes in yellow.
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May 6, 2020 19:57
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Charizard - Fly (HM) Pikachu - Tail Whip, Double Team (by level up instead of just TM), Slam (instead of Swift), Thunderbolt (Level), Light Screen Nidoran(a/o) F & M: Now get Double Kicker much earlier Nidoqueen/king: Now get Double Kick instead of Poison Sting Venonat/Venomoth: Supersonic & Confusion Diglett/Dugtrio: Cut (HM) Mankey: Low Kick & Screech Primeape: Low Kick, Screech & Rage (Level Up) Kadabra/Alakazam: Kinesis (the only way to get this move at all in gen 1 is by capturing wild Kadabra at a low enough level in Yellow) Cubone/Marowak: Tail Whip (...Leer is still in its moveset), Headbutt. It also now learns Boneclub by level up (10) instead of innate at level 1 which is functionally not different Rhyhorn/Rhydon: Stomp, Tail Whip & Fury Attack are now Level 1 moves...but also are still Level up moves Chansey: Tail Whip (as a Level 1 move). Double Slap is now learned at level 10 instead of level 1 Tangela: Vine Whip!!!! Scyther: Wing Attack Pinsir: Bind Gyarados: Bite, Hydro Pump, Leer Dragon Rage are no longer Level 1 moves, replaced by Tackle. Eevee: Focus Energy Vaporeon: Lost Mist, gained Aurora Beam Jolteon: Shuffled its level ups a little Flareon: Lost Rage, gained Smog Most of these just came about from Pikachu being the starter & eevee being with your rival, others were just the odd touch up & here and there. Bind Pinsir probably didn't shake up the meta.
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May 6, 2020 20:23
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rannum posted:Most of these just came about from Pikachu being the starter & eevee being with your rival, others were just the odd touch up & here and there. Bind Pinsir probably didn't shake up the meta.
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May 6, 2020 21:38
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MagusofStars posted:Interestingly, those "odd touch-ups" despite being just small changes end up being super relevant gameplay-wise - Mankey learning Low Kick basically was the only reason I ever gotten past Brock in Yellow and Nidoran's Double Kick features heavily in the speedrun. I'm guessing that Mankey decision (plus making Mankey available before Brock) was specifically done to help get past Brock. It's either that or Butterfree (which I always took.)
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May 6, 2020 21:45
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rannum posted:Kadabra/Alakazam: Kinesis (the only way to get this move at all in gen 1 is by capturing wild Kadabra at a low enough level in Yellow) Interesting note, I was one of the lucky people to see Kinesis before Yellow came out, when using Metronome. Surprised the hell outta me.
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May 6, 2020 21:47
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MagusofStars posted:Interestingly, those "odd touch-ups" despite being just small changes end up being super relevant gameplay-wise - Mankey learning Low Kick basically was the only reason I ever gotten past Brock in Yellow and Nidoran's Double Kick features heavily in the speedrun. The Nidorans & Mankey are done as part of Pikachu being your starter. It's a concession for having a forced starter that cannot deal with Brock. So the Nidorans got Double Kick way earlier, Mankey got Low Kick and put in the starting areas so you had some SE damage. iirc early game Mankey is one of the few encoutner table shake ups that FRLG took from Yellow, presumably so Charmander players had an alternative to grinding for Metal Claw (even though ember will still do better but shh)
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May 6, 2020 22:02
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UCS Hellmaker posted:Yes but lick is absolute garbage in gen 1 with only 20 bpl. It's only use is as the sole ghost not night shade move and has a chance to paralyze. Gen 1 was a Trainwreck of wasted and empty move pools. Meanwhile Marowak and Hitmonlee have 2/3 wildly redundant exclusive moves all to themselves, and two TM slots are taken up by moves that only 1-2* 'mons can learn... rather than just putting them in their level-up list??? It's always shocking to look back at games like this and marvel at how the series ever got off the ground being this janky and poorly-planned. *Mew doesn't count and you know it 
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May 7, 2020 01:08
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When I played Yellow, I got by Brock with my Butterfree using Confusion. I never explored the west of Viridian city in the early game and always skipped that Rival fight.
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May 7, 2020 05:08
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Edit: I didn't see there was a whole other page of replies and we'd already moved on from tangela but shhh It's so disappointing that Tangela loses a huge chunk of its bulk in the next generation so even though its moveset is decent now and it has access to Regenerator it'll never be able to use it to its full potential that it had in RBY. At least there's Eviolite, but even that isn't as good as it would have been with 100 spdef behind it. And Tangrowth is pretty much just Tangela with an Attack boost so it's not like it becomes much bulkier from evolving either. Allosauroidea fucked around with this message at 12:45 on May 7, 2020 |
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May 7, 2020 12:42
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My first time playing yellow I beat Brock by level grinding my Pidgeotto. I think it was like level 18 when I finally bring through.
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May 7, 2020 15:11
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Allosauroidea posted:Edit: I didn't see there was a whole other page of replies and we'd already moved on from tangela but shhh Tangrowth is super good though. Sure it doesn't have the special bulk that gen 1 Tangela had but it is basically tailor made for Assault Vest and was OU for both gen 6 and 7.
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May 7, 2020 17:11
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rannum posted:[Yellow Moveset changea] I remember making a spreadsheet with gen 1 and 2 level up movesets. The goal was to setup the ideal path for each pokemon either to get the moves I wanted on it, or to just hit the greatest number of moves possible (not that you could actually keep them with only four slots, but it was the idea behind it).
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May 7, 2020 17:23
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loving love Fiona Apple posted:My first time playing yellow I beat Brock by level grinding my Pidgeotto. I think it was like level 18 when I finally bring through. I recently played through Red with a Charmander and my strategy with Brock was to simply overwhelm him with numbers, growling and tail whipping him into nothing and then chipping him down with level 9 mons. Slow, but works surprisingly well!
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May 8, 2020 15:05
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Honestly, making Brock the first gym leader in the whole series is kind of a dick move. It should have been Erica. If you pick Charmander your only real options are power leveling or a tedious wearing down. If it had been Erica, no matter who your starter was you still had options with Pidgey or a Spearow (although I can't remember if Spearow has a Flying move by this point or not, but I know Pidgey has Gust)
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May 8, 2020 16:45
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Rabbi Raccoon posted:Honestly, making Brock the first gym leader in the whole series is kind of a dick move. It should have been Erica. If you pick Charmander your only real options are power leveling or a tedious wearing down. If it had been Erica, no matter who your starter was you still had options with Pidgey or a Spearow (although I can't remember if Spearow has a Flying move by this point or not, but I know Pidgey has Gust) Gust is a normal type move in RBY, IIRC, and you don't get Spearow until after Brock unless you're in Yellow.
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May 8, 2020 16:46
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Rabbi Raccoon posted:Honestly, making Brock the first gym leader in the whole series is kind of a dick move. It should have been Erica. If you pick Charmander your only real options are power leveling or a tedious wearing down. If it had been Erica, no matter who your starter was you still had options with Pidgey or a Spearow (although I can't remember if Spearow has a Flying move by this point or not, but I know Pidgey has Gust) Gust is Normal-type in Gen I. Which is just a very peak Gen I choice.
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May 8, 2020 16:47
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Oh. Well there went that idea. A fresh Butterfree could still take her, though
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May 8, 2020 16:51
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Eirika would've been a bad first leader since instead of one starter getting the short end, it's two starters. Assuming she still mostly had grass/poisons (the ONLY pure Grass was Tangela who probably would be a small nightmare as the first boss) bulbasaur is double screwed, squirtle's standard screwed and at that point you're relying on Butterfree again which you'd do anyway for Charmander
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May 8, 2020 16:57
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Misty would have been a good choice because Pikachu would have supplemented Charmander being a liability and Squirtle would have been just neutral.
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May 8, 2020 17:16
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Rabbi Raccoon posted:Honestly, making Brock the first gym leader in the whole series is kind of a dick move.
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May 8, 2020 17:19
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MagusofStars posted:Yeah. The biggest issue is that Rock has high natural defense *and* a resistance to Normal moves (far and away the most common move this early). Oh, and even if you wants to nab guys who you find on the way, most of the other options are Flying or Poison, which also have the same issues dealing damage to Rock. I do think Brock works to a degree as a boss who forces you to develop a team and strategy beyond "crush everything with your starter," but that obviously doesn't apply to Squirtle and Bulbasaur.
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May 8, 2020 18:05
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Brock is perfectly fine because he forces kids to think a little about strategy, even if said strategy is "grinding". I'd be surprised if he actually stopped anyone from playing the game, considering how somewhat successful they were.
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May 8, 2020 18:19
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Even charmander can take on Onix at a fairly reasonable level because onix's special is so bad, but that's not immediately obvious. It's not like either of his pokemon have actual rock moves in RBY.
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May 8, 2020 18:20
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Simply Simon posted:Brock is perfectly fine because he forces kids to think a little about strategy, even if said strategy is "grinding". I'd be surprised if he actually stopped anyone from playing the game, considering how somewhat successful they were. I can agree with imposing the need to grind, but I also feel like games should force you to start using strategy when you have the means to access the tools required for that. When you hit Brock, the only grinding place is Viridian Forest, which is almost exclusively larval bug types, which give bad experience. Anything before that is too low-level so it has the same problem
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May 8, 2020 18:52
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Rabbi Raccoon posted:Honestly, making Brock the first gym leader in the whole series is kind of a dick move. It should have been Erica. If you pick Charmander your only real options are power leveling or a tedious wearing down. If it had been Erica, no matter who your starter was you still had options with Pidgey or a Spearow (although I can't remember if Spearow has a Flying move by this point or not, but I know Pidgey has Gust) I've always said that Rock is the perfect first gym type and I think it shows in how often it's been used. It's a type that's very different from how it first appears. You see the high defences and resistance to the Normal and Flying moves you're probably relying on, but it is a terrible defensive typing, tied for the worst with Grass (which lacks the high defences and common resistances that make Rock work in this role), with a ton of weaknesses. It's incredibly easy to exploit, if you know how . And so it tests kids on their knowledge of basic type matchups in a really clever way, at least I think personally, as their first hurdle before releasing them into the rest of the game. I think Brock's dickishness is more poor level design in terms of Pokemon selection, as well as movepool design, in RB than an inherent problem with a Rock type first gym.
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May 8, 2020 19:12
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Yeah, Falkner was a worse choice for a first gym leader by a long shot.
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May 8, 2020 19:26
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Allosauroidea posted:I think Brock's dickishness is more poor level design in terms of Pokemon selection, as well as movepool design, in RB than an inherent problem with a Rock type first gym. Yeah, if you swap him with erika you could just as easily at that point give the player mankey or hell, something other than your starter(yes pikachu, but brock is immune and butterfree is 2 evolutions in and not particularly obvious)capable of using the special stat.
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May 8, 2020 19:30
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Allosauroidea posted:I've always said that Rock is the perfect first gym type and I think it shows in how often it's been used. It's a type that's very different from how it first appears. You see the high defences and resistance to the Normal and Flying moves you're probably relying on, but it is a terrible defensive typing, tied for the worst with Grass (which lacks the high defences and common resistances that make Rock work in this role), with a ton of weaknesses. It's incredibly easy to exploit, if you know how . And so it tests kids on their knowledge of basic type matchups in a really clever way, at least I think personally, as their first hurdle before releasing them into the rest of the game. The difference between Brock and, say, Roxanne is that she comes at a point when you have more access to things. Brock comes pretty early. It's really hard to test that knowledge when people don't have access to the tools needed to use it. Sure, someone completely new to the series has a 2/3 chance of blowing past Brock, but the ones who went for the "this is gonna be a dragon someday" neon sign are pretty much up the creek. And it doesn't help that he's the only leader you can't come back to later, you HAVE to beat him when you hit Pewter.
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May 8, 2020 19:56
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Cythereal posted:Gust is a normal type move in RBY, IIRC, and you don't get Spearow until after Brock unless you're in Yellow.  Spearow is obtainable in the patch of grass west of Viridian, it's shown in the very first update of this LP.
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May 8, 2020 19:59
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Rabbi Raccoon posted:The difference between Brock and, say, Roxanne is that she comes at a point when you have more access to things. Brock comes pretty early. It's really hard to test that knowledge when people don't have access to the tools needed to use it. This I completely agree with. Like I said, it's definitely an RB game design issue, I still maintain Rock is THE best first gym type out there.
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May 8, 2020 20:00
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Onix in particular makes a *great* first boss. Looks intimidating to a newbie, *huge* defenses and resistance to normal attacks, which at this point will be *most* of your team's basic attacks. Encourages you to look for another way to beat it rather than brute force - either by using type advantage, or looking into some of those other moves that don't do damage, like tail whip and leer to make him more vulnerable to your attacks. And at the same time, Onix is *not* an offensive powerhouse. Bind can be intimidating because it stops you from attacking, and Bide can be scary if you don't know what it does and suddenly it oneshots you. But for the most part, all Onix can really do is chip damage - which is good, because it gives the player time to experiment and learn what works. Giving him Rock Tomb in FR/LG actually made him a less effective "first boss" because a brand new player doesn't really have time to think of a workaround strategy for his high defenses because suddenly Onix now has a move that, for this part of the game, honestly hits like a freight train.
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May 8, 2020 20:26
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Onix and Nosepass are great first boss mons. The problem is that they're in a game where every monster is usable and they're bad at everything *except* being a first boss. I think it's telling that they both received evolutions immediately . The funny thing is that Geodude would have been a much much more threatening ace for Brock to have. It's got worse physical bulk but it having a bit more health and the same special gives it better overall bulk, and it's almost twice as powerful. The only thing it really loses in is its lack of speed. Allosauroidea fucked around with this message at 20:32 on May 8, 2020 |
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May 8, 2020 20:28
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Allosauroidea posted:Onix and Nosepass are great first boss mons. The problem is that they're in a game where every monster is usable and they're bad at everything *except* being a first boss. I think it's telling that they both received evolutions immediately . My instinctive response to that is that Onix's design is just so much cooler than Geodude's that it wouldn't really work. But then that gets me wondering how much of that perspective is shaped by my experience playing Gen 1. If their positions and rarities were swapped, would I think the boulder is cooler than the rock snake? BRB, gotta change my PhD thesis.
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May 8, 2020 21:22
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Onix is bigger. That makes it cooler.
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May 8, 2020 21:24
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Karia posted:My instinctive response to that is that Onix's design is just so much cooler than Geodude's that it wouldn't really work. But then that gets me wondering how much of that perspective is shaped by my experience playing Gen 1. If their positions and rarities were swapped, would I think the boulder is cooler than the rock snake? Cubone is rarer than Onix but categorically is less cool than Onix, qed a rare version of Geodude would not be more cool than a more common Onix
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May 8, 2020 21:43
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Rabbi Raccoon posted:I can agree with imposing the need to grind, but I also feel like games should force you to start using strategy when you have the means to access the tools required for that. When you hit Brock, the only grinding place is Viridian Forest, which is almost exclusively larval bug types, which give bad experience. Anything before that is too low-level so it has the same problem It still was pretty tough because I couldn't just spam Confusion, because Bide. So things learned: - try other options beside your starter - Pokemon can learn off-type moves that are really good - you don't always have to use STAB attacks - consider having non-attacking moves to debuff Onix while it's Biding - actually I also softened it up with Tail Whips etc. to have a backup strategy of physical moves if it happened to Tackle Butterfree too often I actually kept using Butterfree for the entire game, which also taught me the value of various powders...
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May 8, 2020 21:55
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Karia posted:My instinctive response to that is that Onix's design is just so much cooler than Geodude's that it wouldn't really work. But then that gets me wondering how much of that perspective is shaped by my experience playing Gen 1. If their positions and rarities were swapped, would I think the boulder is cooler than the rock snake? Yeah no I know why they did it and I wouldn't change it, just thought it was funny to think that the mook is statistically so much more threatening than the actual boss
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May 8, 2020 22:13
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| # ? Jun 11, 2024 07:39 |
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Shame that Onix being designed as a first boss mon meant it got screwed stat wise, but at least Steelix fixed it pretty well. Still, Pokemon games are designed well enough that you'll always find great options to take them down nearby. Like with Misty even if you're not running with best choice Bulbasaur, Route 24 has Oddish or Bellsprout and Misty's Starmie is pretty neutered by having its strongest attack be Bubblebeam. It still smarts but she can also waste time with Tackle or X Defense. With Lt. Surge, you've got Diglett's Cave right next door, as well as Sandshrew in Blue and a trainer will trade you a Nidorino that you can use a Moon Stone on. Erika has Flareon in the same city, I guess, along with Doduo right next door, as well as the ICE BEAM TM, so yeah you're always good.
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May 8, 2020 22:20
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