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HEY GUNS posted:I think I'm agreeing with you, I just couldn't remember your name. No worries, I probably came across a bit defensive too.
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May 9, 2020 21:03
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Randomcheese3 posted:The flag a ship flies is decided not by the nationality of the owner, but by the country where the ship is registered. Mostly, the change was driven by American owners registering their ships as British. This is all interesting to me, and the size scale of merchant fleets is impressive. It reminds me of something I was reading recently about how the cost of shipping plunged over the 18th and 19th centuries, and with so many ships on the seas sailing so much faster than before its easy to understand why. All these ships flying flags of convenience is curious to me since I thought that was a modern innovation. Were there any consequences to an American shipowner registering it in Britain?
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May 9, 2020 21:28
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SU-76I Queue: T-26 with mine detection equipment, T-34M/T-44 (1941), T-43 (1942), T-43 (1943), Maus development in 1943-44, Trials of the LT vz. 35 in the USSR, Development of Slovakian tank forces 1939-1941, T-46, SU-76M (SU-15M) production, Object 237 (IS-1 prototype), ISU-122, Object 704, Jagdpanzer IV, VK 30.02 DB and other predecessors of the Panther, RSO tank destroyer, Sd.Kfz. 10/4, Czech anti-tank rifles in German service, Hotchkiss H 39/Pz.Kpfw.38H(f) in German service, Flakpanzer 38(t), Grille series, Jagdpanther, Boys and PIAT, Heavy Tank T26E5, History of German diesel engines for tanks, King Tiger trials in the USSR, T-44 prototypes, T-44 prototypes second round, Black Prince, PT-76, M4A3E2 Jumbo Sherman, M4A2 Sherman in the Red Army, T-54, T-44 prototypes, T-44 prototypes second round, T-44 production, Soviet HEAT anti-tank grenades, T-34-85M, Myths of Soviet tank building: interbellum tanks, Light Tank M24, German anti-tank rifles, PT-76 modernizations, ISU-122 front line impressions, German additional tank protection (zimmerit, schurzen, track links), Winter and swamp tracks, Paper light tank destroyers, Allied intel on the Maus , Summary of French interbellum tank development, Medium Tank T20, Medium Tank T23, Myths of Soviet tank building, GMC M10, Tiger II predecessors, Pz.Kpfw.IV Ausf.H-J,IS-6, SU-101/SU-102/Uralmash-1, Centurion Mk.I, SU-100 front line impressions, IS-2 front line impressions, Myths of Soviet tank building: early Great Patriotic War, Influence of the T-34 on German tank building, Medium Tank T25, Heavy Tank T26/T26E1/T26E3, Career of Harry Knox, GMC M36, Geschützwagen Tiger für 17cm K72 (Sf), Early Early Soviet tank development (MS-1, AN Teplokhod), Career of Semyon Aleksandrovich Ginzburg, AT-1, Object 140, SU-76 frontline impressions, Creation of the IS-3, IS-6, SU-5, Myths of Soviet tank building: 1943-44, IS-2 post-war modifications, Myths of Soviet tank building: end of the Great Patriotic War Available for request:  HMC M7 Priest  15 cm sFH 13/1 (Sf) Oerlikon and Solothurn anti-tank rifles  Lahti L-39  AMR 35 ZT Ensign Expendable fucked around with this message at 22:34 on May 9, 2020 |
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May 9, 2020 21:45
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May 9, 2020 21:58
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Ensign Expendable posted:Available for request:
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May 9, 2020 22:02
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holy lol
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May 9, 2020 22:09
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I'm a little surprised that ships would go through the effort of entirely re-registering instead of just swapping out flags with no regard to legal procedure. I was listening to a podcast on airline disasters, and it got me wondering whether anybody has actually tried sending a military attack plane disguised as a commercial airliner? Or at least, has there ever been a confirmed case of that, since I've heard that there's some real  about that.
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May 9, 2020 22:14
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edit: not the Stark... dangit, the Iraqis or Iranians had a civilian plane with a cobbled on radar and missile. edit again! I cannot find it? Was it a dream? LRADIKAL fucked around with this message at 22:35 on May 9, 2020 |
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May 9, 2020 22:25
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Buster sword got nothing on these
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May 9, 2020 22:26
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LRADIKAL posted:edit: not the Stark... dangit, the Iraqis or Iranians had a civilian plane with a cobbled on radar and missile. A Learjet with an Exocet iirc e: can't find anything either so likely I'm misremembering aphid_licker fucked around with this message at 23:25 on May 9, 2020 |
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May 9, 2020 23:20
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a face hugger!
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May 9, 2020 23:26
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SlothfulCobra posted:I'm a little surprised that ships would go through the effort of entirely re-registering instead of just swapping out flags with no regard to legal procedure.
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May 9, 2020 23:39
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SlothfulCobra posted:I'm a little surprised that ships would go through the effort of entirely re-registering instead of just swapping out flags with no regard to legal procedure. Merely hoisting the flag doesn't actually give you any legal protection. If an enemy ship stops you, they are allowed to capture your ship (and sink it if necessary), no matter what cargo you're carrying. If you're registered in a neutral country, your ship is protected unless it is carrying contraband. aphid_licker posted:A Learjet with an Exocet iirc It was a Dassault Falcon 50. It wasn't fully in the civilian configuration, as they'd rebuilt the nose to fit the radar, but it was close.
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May 9, 2020 23:42
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Randomcheese3 posted:Merely hoisting the flag doesn't actually give you any legal protection. If an enemy ship stops you, they are allowed to capture your ship (and sink it if necessary), no matter what cargo you're carrying. If you're registered in a neutral country, your ship is protected unless it is carrying contraband. How does that work though? Were there regular inspectors pulling over passing merchant ships with copies of the entire registry to check against? Could raiders identify individual ships from a distance to see if they matched any known enemy merchant ships? Did they open fire and sink ships that tried to get away and avoid being closely inspected?
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May 10, 2020 00:10
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SlothfulCobra posted:How does that work though? Were there regular inspectors pulling over passing merchant ships with copies of the entire registry to check against? Could raiders identify individual ships from a distance to see if they matched any known enemy merchant ships? Did they open fire and sink ships that tried to get away and avoid being closely inspected? Generally, warships would stop and inspect any ship that was suspicious - in the case I'm most familiar with, the RN's blockade of Germany in WWI, this essentially meant any neutral ship passing through the Dover Straits or the northern entrances to the North Sea. The inspection would involve sending over a boarding party to check the cargo, the vessel's papers and its manifest. If all was in order, the ship was allowed to proceed to its destination. If not, a prize crew would be put aboard, and it would be taken to a British port for a more detailed examination. British warships carried copies of Lloyd's Register, which gave the name, nationality and tonnage of every merchant at sea; by comparing this very general description with the ship in question, a captain could determine whether or not a ship was suspicious. An example of this came on the 16th March 1917, when the German auxiliary cruiser Leopard was stopped by HMS Achilles and the armed boarding steamer Dundee. Leopard was disguised as a Norwegian merchant ship, the Rena. However, the captain of Dundee noted that, while the real Rena displaced 3,000 tons, the ship they had stopped was considerably larger. A boarding party was sent across, and when this was detained, a brief engagement ensued, with the Leopard, badly outgunned, being switly sunk.
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May 10, 2020 00:45
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SlothfulCobra posted:How does that work though? Were there regular inspectors pulling over passing merchant ships with copies of the entire registry to check against? Could raiders identify individual ships from a distance to see if they matched any known enemy merchant ships? Did they open fire and sink ships that tried to get away and avoid being closely inspected? The procedure during the American Civil War was pretty much as Randomcheese outlined for WW1 - it was all based on the traditional 'cruiser rules' which were mutually agreed in the 17th century (during the Anglo-Dutch Wars, IIRC) even if they wouldn't be formalised until much later. Merchants cannot be fired on without warning. Merchants of an enemy nation have to be stopped, then it's crew must be taken aboard the warship and detained as PoWs before the ship is sunk or captured as a prize and its crew are dropped ashore at the nearest port. Neutral merchants of any flag can be required to be stopped and searched by a combatant warship. Carrying ontraband (the definition of which was extremely open to interpretation as anything which might aid the enemy) did not necessarily cause a neutral merchant ship to lose its protection - in theory it could but in practice admiralty courts needed more damning evidence such as trying to run a close blockade of a specific enemy port or sailing under false flag/registry/papers. In the 1860s as in WW1, warships carried registers to check a merchant's identity and boarding parties would want to see the logbook, charts and accounts to check on where the ship had been and when. It's not easy to change a ship's identity - a lot of equipment and items are required or were expected to carry the name and port of registry on them. More importantly, all ships have to have their name, port of registry and registered tonnage permanently and unalterably displayed in a prominent place - carved into a main deck beam on wooden ships or stamped/engraved into a bulkhead on a metal one. This is where the maritime tradition of it being 'bad luck' to change a ship's name came from - it was a right pain to do from a practical standpoint. You couldn't just swap the name plates or paint a new port of registry on the back and not be found out almost instantly by an inspection party. A merchant found sailing under a false identity could be treated as a combatant and seized or sunk, although it was still required to ensure the safety of the crew. A ship failing to stop when required would be treated as hostile and could be disabled or destroyed.
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May 10, 2020 01:17
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The Argentinians used Learjets in the Falklands, crazy stuff: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escuadr%F3n_F%E9nix That's probably what got me on the Learjet. e: my browser or something else always fucks up encoding of special letters in my posts, sorry, put "escuadron fenix" into Wikipedia.
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May 10, 2020 01:32
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Randomcheese3 posted:Merely hoisting the flag doesn't actually give you any legal protection. If an enemy ship stops you, they are allowed to capture your ship (and sink it if necessary), no matter what cargo you're carrying. If you're registered in a neutral country, your ship is protected unless it is carrying contraband. It also got the fire control system from a Mirage F.1EQ-5 and the right side of the cockpit were replaced with the controls from the same Mirage variant. The left side was the normal controls for a Falcon. And it got the hardpoints for two Exocet launchers. Both of which were fired in anger at the USS Stark during the Iran-Iraq war. These weren't modifications done by the Iraqis but by Dassault.
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May 10, 2020 03:03
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BalloonFish posted:The procedure during the American Civil War was pretty much as Randomcheese outlined for WW1 - it was all based on the traditional 'cruiser rules' which were mutually agreed in the 17th century (during the Anglo-Dutch Wars, IIRC) even if they wouldn't be formalised until much later. What's to stop someone from saying they tried to stop you and you failed to listen? The value of a ship as prize?
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May 10, 2020 06:23
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Milo and POTUS posted:What's to stop someone from saying they tried to stop you and you failed to listen? The value of a ship as prize?
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May 10, 2020 07:09
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Nessus posted:I think this is where the admirality court comes into play, and if you don't want to do the admirality court, congratulations, now you're having a war instead. it's lawsuits all the way down, isn't it
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May 10, 2020 07:26
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HEY GUNS posted:it's lawsuits all the way down, isn't it War is lawsuits by other means?
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May 10, 2020 07:54
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I see to recall there being a bit of minor controversy over the Union deciding that 'cotton' was now contraband (not the kind that anyone else chose the press the point on, mind you).
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May 10, 2020 10:08
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I've not yet finished it but Porter Alexander's Military Memoirs of a Confederate is a really good read. You just kinda have to understand who he was, but he does a good job of explaining his points and getting into detail about some of the more mundane aspects of the war, like signaling.
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May 10, 2020 12:38
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MadDogMike posted:War is lawsuits by other means? War is large-scale armed robbery.
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May 10, 2020 15:43
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FuturePastNow posted:War is large-scale armed robbery. Robbery would imply that stealing slaves to set free was unethical. The Civil war for all its issues was probably the most ethical war our nation has ever fought.
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May 10, 2020 16:07
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LingcodKilla posted:Robbery would imply that stealing slaves to set free was unethical. I mean, depending which side you were on ofc 
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May 10, 2020 17:45
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LingcodKilla posted:Robbery would imply that stealing slaves to set free was unethical.
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May 10, 2020 20:50
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LingcodKilla posted:Robbery would imply that stealing slaves to set free was unethical. The southern states committed kidnapping first 
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May 10, 2020 22:45
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Would you always be able to tell where a ford was or were there places where a shallow enough bed was otherwise obscured and has there ever been a historical example of a hitherto (?) unknown river crossing being decisive? If I was making a turn based strategy/tactics game and could give scouts orders to attempt a crossing would it be possible for it to be all "you have discovered a fordable crossing" where before there was just a normal, ostensibly impassable barrier.
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May 10, 2020 23:49
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I love how my weird questions always kill the thread for several hours
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May 11, 2020 03:44
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Milo and POTUS posted:I love how my weird questions always kill the thread for several hours i think it would work. the thing with river fords is the river level actually changes over time. So with rain and weather and snow, a single location may be passable one day but not the next. On longer time scales fords can shift over time as the river meanders and sandbars shift within the bed. So the location of fords can change from year to year, and that makes them hard to map and record.
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May 11, 2020 03:59
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It's definitely realistic for a rapidly scouted ford to prove decisive in battle. One example that comes to mind is at the Battle of Assaye between the East India Company and the Maratha Confederacy, the Marathas set up on the known crossing point. General Wellesley (that Wellesley) guessed from the position of two villages on the river Kaitna that there was a ford, and managed a flanking attack, which defeated the Marathas and lead to EIC dominance over the subcontinent.
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May 11, 2020 05:04
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Finally, an honest and accurate retelling of the Battle of the Atlantic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vbgP_ohzkI
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May 11, 2020 07:40
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Tell me again how inflated sheep's bladders can be employed to prevent earthquakes.
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May 11, 2020 07:51
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GotLag posted:Finally, an honest and accurate retelling of the Battle of the Atlantic I love how the trailer transitions from 'pretty decent depiction' to 'broadsiding a u-boat on the surface... yeah okay, I bet there's a few recorded instances of that actually happening', to 'the german commander is talking on the... what is going on now?'.
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May 11, 2020 08:36
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I'm kinda past being too bothered about films trying to find exciting ways to depict ASW.
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May 11, 2020 10:27
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If you're in the sub, like a horror movie? e: or if you're not in the sub
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May 11, 2020 11:12
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Alchenar posted:I love how the trailer transitions from 'pretty decent depiction' to 'broadsiding a u-boat on the surface... yeah okay, I bet there's a few recorded instances of that actually happening', to 'the german commander is talking on the... what is going on now?'.
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May 11, 2020 11:42
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Milo and POTUS posted:If you're in the sub, like a horror movie? 
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