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Pacra posted:And it loving owned that name rules
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May 9, 2020 21:03
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Royalty is poo poo. Zoss just got done explaining this. Dude spent longer than anyone else chasing royalty and it didn't help. Didn't let him do what he wanted, didn't make anything any better. Our seven demis all stopped chasing for various reasons, either they assumed they achieved it (lmao you can't achieve royalty idiot, you can only pursue it), or they abandoned the pursuit for their own stupid or selfish reasons. Zoss didn't stop, he's gotten closer (to something that can never be reached lmao) than anyone and he just got done telling Allison that it was poo poo and to not do it.
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May 9, 2020 21:09
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Alison divides her key between her companions a-la Demiurges but instead of squabbling they combine Voltron-style to wreck face.
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May 9, 2020 21:21
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infinity divided by 109 is still infinity "You guys want the key? Alright here you go. Have fun."
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May 9, 2020 22:06
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yeah, that's the thing that'll work. doing the thing Zoss already tried to do again.
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May 9, 2020 22:36
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Gog would have a field day in a future where every new convert comes with a free key.
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May 9, 2020 22:48
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allison should definitely become friends with gog.
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May 9, 2020 22:52
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YaketySass posted:Gog would have a field day in a future where every new convert comes with a free key. If you gave every individual worm a key, that'd probably cause a Gog civil war.
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May 9, 2020 23:26
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NecroMonster posted:yeah, that's the thing that'll work. doing the thing Zoss already tried to do again. Zoss gave out 1/7,777,777 of his key to each demiurge, for their own world. then someone realized you could take words from others and double your power, that kicked off the war. If its impossible to gain by turning on each other, that removes that temptation Might be one to many 7s in there, point stands
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May 9, 2020 23:54
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gog is reachable i think and reformable and allison should ask her to be friends
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May 10, 2020 00:29
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NecroMonster posted:gog is reachable i think and reformable and allison should ask her to be friends Really it seems like the only way to defeat Gog would be to change her mind. There's no way you could reasonably kill someone with billions of bodies across thousands of worlds, but they still only have one mind.
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May 10, 2020 00:31
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or get everyone on a course of anti-parasitics.
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May 10, 2020 00:36
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You know, if true strength is helping and empowering others to be a collective....Our good pal Gog-a-Gog might have been right all along. If you squint.
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May 10, 2020 00:52
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Drunk Theory posted:You know, if true strength is helping and empowering others to be a collective....Our good pal Gog-a-Gog might have been right all along. If you squint. She's more about empowering the collective to be her though.
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May 10, 2020 00:54
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There Bias Two posted:She's more about empowering the collective to be her though. To paraphrase Henry Ford, "You can be whoever you want, just as long as it's your pal Gog-Agog."
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May 10, 2020 01:00
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nimby posted:If you gave every individual worm a key, that'd probably cause a Gog civil war. This is the alternative: Allison somehow winds up breaking the collective mind by reintroducing individuality to them all at once, and the resulting chaos from billions of Yogs freaking the gently caress out all at once is the tipping point for a second universal war.
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May 10, 2020 01:19
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Which would be a great apocalyptic scenario, as a significant number of independent gogworms either have identity crises or just become zombie clowns. I'm also not sure I would appreciate the 'give everyone a key' approach just because it feels like an end-run around the actual problem of the demiurges' material power over the worlds. The keys matter, but that's a lot less satisfying than Allison learning how to actually support the agency of other people in a way that isn't 'shove a magical artifact into their head.'
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May 10, 2020 01:35
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Tenebrais posted:Really it seems like the only way to defeat Gog would be to change her mind. There's no way you could reasonably kill someone with billions of bodies across thousands of worlds, but they still only have one mind. This is giving me strong Pandora's Star vibes
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May 10, 2020 01:41
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Tenebrais posted:Really it seems like the only way to defeat Gog would be to change her mind. There's no way you could reasonably kill someone with billions of bodies across thousands of worlds, but they still only have one mind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-crgQGdpZR0
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May 10, 2020 01:53
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the last time someone tried giving everyone keys we ended up with the current situation
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May 10, 2020 02:01
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I think that royalty is still important, it just seems that Zoss, a conquerer and ruler and killer, was not able to pull it off. It's possible that Zoss doesn't know the seventh syllable of royalty, the one about speaking "I" internally with a tongue drenched in the blood of your lovers. The last page's caption about hands becoming useless once they pick up a sword might be the key to understanding this: Zoss is a killer who ultimately conquered others that did not fit into his plan for the universe, He didn't know how to rule without doing this, and he ended up caring too much about an end state away from ruin. When it comes to ruling the universe, it makes intuitive sense to me that teleological rule will never be organic enough, free enough, dynamic enough to last and adjust to changes and stress over time. Royalty that endures releases a significant fraction of its power to allow systems evolve as they will. Rule flexibly enough that your kingdoms can adjust to change without building up pressure and cracking, spiraling into ruin. Anyway here's freebird
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May 10, 2020 02:01
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you can't "pull royalty off" it's a "continuous" cutting motion. You don't get to stop ever, you never reach a destination.
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May 10, 2020 02:03
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NecroMonster posted:the last time someone tried giving everyone keys we ended up with the current situation the universe is a wheel
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May 10, 2020 02:11
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I don't think royalty has any particular statement to make about rulership per se. It's about agency and sovereignty of the self, not optimal systems management. Remember, Hansa attained royalty without pursuing it, and he was a cranky old guy who cared about Law, not a conqueror.
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May 10, 2020 02:20
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YaketySass posted:the universe is a wheel break the fuckin' wheel
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May 10, 2020 02:26
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Maybe Royalty should be a discrete grinding motion instead. Allison could, uh, reinvent the wheel so to speak
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May 10, 2020 03:12
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Regalingualius posted:This is the alternative: Allison somehow winds up breaking the collective mind by reintroducing individuality to them all at once, and the resulting chaos from billions of Yogs freaking the gently caress out all at once is the tipping point for a second universal war. I think killing Our Pal Gog-Agog would involve one of those kill one == kill all spells/moves. A single Cut to a single Worm would Cut every Worm across all Worlds.
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May 10, 2020 03:35
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NecroMonster posted:you can't "pull royalty off" it's a "continuous" cutting motion. You don't get to stop ever, you never reach a destination. hence the argument against teleological rule Zoss can't sustain it, whether he ever reached it or not
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May 10, 2020 03:48
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Yesh posted:Maybe Royalty should be a discrete grinding motion instead. Allison could, uh, reinvent the wheel so to speak Nuke the universe.
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May 10, 2020 03:49
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Yesh posted:Maybe Royalty should be a discrete grinding motion instead. Allison could, uh, reinvent the wheel so to speak
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May 10, 2020 04:08
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NecroMonster posted:you can't "pull royalty off" it's a "continuous" cutting motion. You don't get to stop ever, you never reach a destination. I disagree there. Because in the lore stuff, there have been those that achieved Royalty before, even if it has been through not trying to achieve it. I personally think that that Royalty has a destination, but that that destination consists of setting your own destination. That is, while Royalty is a continuous motion, once you reach it, it's on you to decide what exactly Royalty is and will be.
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May 10, 2020 04:17
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NecroMonster posted:the last time someone tried giving everyone keys we ended up with the current situation That wasn't everyone, that was a very limited, specific set of people who set themselves up as rulers/gods over everyone else. Kind of a first-come, first-serve thing if I recall, since the original demiurges were just the people who entered Throne after Zoss smote all the prime angels.
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May 10, 2020 04:32
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My guess is Allison will sever the links between all 777777 worlds, destroy the key(s), and alter royalty in some pacifist fashion. Handing out keys only created more violence. Connecting the worlds only created more horrors and more wars. Reaching heaven created nothing but suffering. People grasped the very fires of creation, and then used them much like you'd use a very sharp rock. The most royal people are mostly violent assholes. Again and again and again, we see that power corrupts. The solution is to take that power away and create a level playing field.
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May 10, 2020 05:27
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Handing out keys isn't the answer because that does nothing to help create a scenario where one person with keys decides 'hey, I'd like to be the only one with a key or keys of kings, I should start killing my way through the society of demiurges.' Everyone having equal access to the Key of Kings is perhaps better than the current situation, but the Demiurges aren't where they are solely because of keys. Plenty of other people had keys, and Solomon David in particular didn't become the unstoppable death machine he is by having a key, because he killed a demiurge for it. What you need is a framework in which cosmic power isn't the measure of whether a person deserves to have agency, and an actual collective effort to ensure that remains the case. There is no simple answer to the proposition of 'how do we fix tyranny' and the keys aren't why that's complex, nor are they the solution to it. Though if you did remove the keys from the equation I guess you would have the side effect of cutting of interuniversal travel except for truly exceptional individuals, who might not be able to personally conquer worlds without a key. (Actually, that's a thought - I wonder if any demiurges in the 777,777 worlds were clever enough, during Universal War, to go hide in a world they had the key to, and close the gate behind them? Or once the key is used, is the magus gate open forever, unless you're Zoss? Maybe there have been some would-be cosmic tyrants who stepped into the omniverse to see what had happened in the last thousand years, and just get immediately jumped by whichever of the Seven Lords of Infinity laid claim to their world?) E: Also, I really don't think this series is going to go in the 'power corrupts' direction. Power reveals, and often what it reveals is that the people who aggressively pursue power aren't going to be that scrupulous with it, because it's a hell of a thing to want the power to destroy other people. You can put strictures on power, or use it for good, but just disavowing it and putting it aside is naive. There will still be petty tyrants like the guilds in a world without Keys, and Solomon David could still rule an entire world utterly without a key. E: Not to mention the worlds that have already been stripped of everything valuable by the Demiurges, and if all extrauniversal ties were cut off, would just be places of utter misery. Think of the world from book two, where Mottom had reduced the entire landscape of a world to shredded orchards. That world won't recover without help; to just say 'we leave everything how it is' is to condemn all the victim-worlds to that wound forever, and worlds like Rayuba that benefited will simply get to sit in that colonial wealth, again forever. Like Rayuba having two entire suns. Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 05:36 on May 10, 2020 |
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May 10, 2020 05:31
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Lock people in their caves and throw away the key to the rest of the world. Great idea.
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May 10, 2020 05:35
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"The [Magic/Special Thing] Goes Away Forever" is just the most trite and cliche ending known to man.
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May 10, 2020 05:50
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Personally I think ensuring there are magus gates but not 'things you stick in your forehead and become one of the Breakers of Worlds' would be a decent use of some effort. But like, ideally you'd be able to use that power for the good of people as a whole - those fires of creation used for something other than an especially sharp rock. That has to be possible, since, after all, the gods were no more inherently virtuous than humanity though perhaps less full of perilous Want, and they wielded the Art and made entire worlds. The One Ring was industrialization and Tolkien was too into bucolic pastorals to allow that it could be used for good, but this doesn't have to be Tolkien. In fact, I'd prefer it not be.
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May 10, 2020 05:51
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M_Gargantua posted:Lock people in their caves and throw away the key to the rest of the world. Great idea. No, lock people in their own universes and tell them to become noodle vendors. Big difference. And some of those universes are pretty big; just look at ours. The universe was created when Yisun made war for 7 days, love for 1 day, then committed holy suicide and divided into pieces. Allison spent seven pages of the comic fighting herself, one page of the comic making out with herself, and then will become the breaker of infinity who divides the wheel into 777777 pieces.
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May 10, 2020 05:55
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Copromancer posted:No, lock people in their own universes and tell them to become noodle vendors. Big difference. And some of those universes are pretty big; just look at ours. The wheel is already literally 777,777 pieces. Each is a universe.
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May 10, 2020 06:09
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Neddy Seagoon posted:"The [Magic/Special Thing] Goes Away Forever" is just the most trite and cliche ending known to man. We know it's not forever anyway thanks to the lore drops.
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May 10, 2020 06:11
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