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Ishamael posted:After re-reading the recap of Made In America, I think that another reason the blackout dominates conversation is that it isn't that eventful of an episode. Whereas Blue Comet rocked the foundations of the show, MiA was a lot quieter. That's really the beauty of it and how masterful Chase was at subverting expectations and, to me, him also trying to refocus the viewer on what the show was Really About. The penultimate episode soaked in blood with bullets flying and bodies dropping that fans were clamoring for was The Blue Comet and he gave it to us Also, I thought the OP didn't want us delving into the Blackout? I love the last episode(s), even without discussing the ending. The poo poo with Junior that you brought up where he doesn't even remember That Thing of Ours after decades of it being SO important, to the level that he tried to kill Anthony once, is really telling and captures more of the overall theme than Sil being in a coma could ever communicate. Chase has been on record expressing his dissatisfaction at the Whack of the Week club and the ways people would bet on who would die in a given episode.
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May 14, 2020 21:58
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Jerusalem posted:It might just be because I know it's the last episode so I view it through that lens, but most of the scenes in the back half of the episode feel like they have a real finality to them, like they were specifically going out of their way to wrap up character arcs even if that didn't end their personal story. AJ resolves his downward spiral post-Blanca, Meadow's education "pays off" in a satisfactory way for Carmela, and both Soprano kids end up well on the path to selling out any ideals they ever had or claimed to have in favor of maintaining close ties with the family "business" and making money. Paulie ends up getting the big responsibility he saw younger man after younger man be given before him. Janice has finally fully (and unknowingly) settled into the groove of becoming her mother (thanks The Vosgian Beast, I hadn't considered but you're absolutely right about how Janice is going to bombard her kids with an idealized version of Bobby as they grow up). Carmela has found a workable (for her) balance between mother, wife and "independent" woman at last, and is satisfied with how her kids are doing at least for the time being. Tony finally faced Junior as mentioned. Even Patsy finally gets his "revenge" on Tony by becoming an integral part of his life without Tony really having any say in the matter unless Patrick and Meadow divorced (or never married). I agree with most of this but also think that Chase is showing us how people don't change and how there is really No End to any of it. Especially in this line of work. Bobby, Sil and Phil dying....Johnny Sac...just more of the same when you think about it. Who's learning anything or changing?
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May 14, 2020 22:02
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BiggerBoat posted:I agree with most of this but also think that Chase is showing us how people don't change and how there is really No End to any of it. Especially in this line of work. Bobby, Sil and Phil dying....Johnny Sac...just more of the same when you think about it. Who's learning anything or changing? The only person who changed at all through the show is Meadow, when she went from spirited pro justice do-er of good to mob adjacent wife in training 100% willing to benefit from the perks of being a mob princess (snitching out the guy Tony then curb stomped)
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May 14, 2020 22:50
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It's very impressive how almost all of the characters' final scenes definitely carry a weight to them - but if we didn't know this was the series finale, it could be very easy to read them as just laying down hooks for the next season's storylines. Tony's preparing to face an indictment; Meadow's pivoted to law and found love with a guy who is going to bring Patsy Parisi into an uncomfortably close orbit for Tony; AJ's over his funk - for now - and roped into Little Carmine's business; Paulie has finally earned the position he always (thought) he wanted; Melfi cut Tony loose, but this isn't the first time they've been on the outs, so who's to say it's the last? It all feels like it's going to continue. (In reading about the finale, I saw that the scripts that the majority of the cast and crew received were cut short, ending with the scene of Tony raking leaves and taking a moment to just look up and reflect, before he went to see Junior or met the family for dinner. I wonder if the backlash would've been as vocal if it really had just ended there - going out on a scene with absolutely no sense of menace, but also completely lacking the kind of "real" resolution that people were seemingly expecting.) Unless I'm overlooking something, Carmela's the only main character who doesn't really get their own big moment in the finale, moreover, she's a completely secondary character throughout the 6B run. I guess her trip to Paris and tossing away the detective's business card at the end of Kaisha was kind of the defining end to her character arc. She almost certainly knew what she would find if she actually went down that rabbit hole, and she chose to ignore it and continue living in luxury, no matter the cost.
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May 14, 2020 22:55
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I feel one thing not mentioned in Paulie's last scene it is also a throwback to season one, with the crew outside of Satriales. Except now all those guys are dead and Paulie is alone with the cat he thinks is haunted by the ghosts of one of those guys. He is three generations removed from his prime and still stuck in the life with nothing to show of it. So he survived, but is still in the same place working on his tan. His big resolution was Tony not killing him, but this episode closes his character too. I figure he just keeps chugging along until he drops dead on the job. Jack2142 fucked around with this message at 23:37 on May 14, 2020 |
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May 14, 2020 23:13
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Paulie lays out his arc in season one, and he does indeed stick to it. He's half a wiseguy and that'll be it.
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May 14, 2020 23:35
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So is the cat Adriana ?
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May 15, 2020 02:07
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banned from Starbucks posted:So is the cat Adriana ? Paulie takes the cat and lays it on Silvio's lap in the hospital, so Adriana can finally have her revenge by stealing his breath.
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May 15, 2020 02:16
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The cat is Chris, clearly.
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May 15, 2020 03:11
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JethroMcB posted:It's very impressive how almost all of the characters' final scenes definitely carry a weight to them - but if we didn't know this was the series finale, it could be very easy to read them as just laying down hooks for the next season's storylines. Tony's preparing to face an indictment; Meadow's pivoted to law and found love with a guy who is going to bring Patsy Parisi into an uncomfortably close orbit for Tony; AJ's over his funk - for now - and roped into Little Carmine's business; Paulie has finally earned the position he always (thought) he wanted; Melfi cut Tony loose, but this isn't the first time they've been on the outs, so who's to say it's the last? It all feels like it's going to continue. (In reading about the finale, I saw that the scripts that the majority of the cast and crew received were cut short, ending with the scene of Tony raking leaves and taking a moment to just look up and reflect, before he went to see Junior or met the family for dinner. I wonder if the backlash would've been as vocal if it really had just ended there - going out on a scene with absolutely no sense of menace, but also completely lacking the kind of "real" resolution that people were seemingly expecting.) Hard disagree about Melfi, I don't think there's any coming back from that one. Maybe if she hadn't been humiliated in front of her peers she could find a way to believe their therapy actually is meaningful despite the study, say if Tony has another emergency after a panic attack or something, but even that seems like a stretch since she came to the almost certainly correct conclusion that talk therapy wasn't the solution for him. It probably wasn't ever helping much in the first place--she uses the fact that Tony's medication hadn't had time to kick in to suggest the therapy was helping, but placebo effect seems likelier to me (though as I wrote this it occurred to me that talk therapy could be useful largely because it also has a placebo effect, and a quick Google search suggests that isn't completely implausible). The funny thing about AJ is that if he'd had even the smallest amount of success at the new job, I think viewers would have been happier with that than almost anything else he was involved in over the course of the show. It's kind of awesome how this is such a great show that it got to rub our faces in a bunch of scenes with unpleasant characters (Livia, Janice and AJ have to be some of the most hated tv characters ever) and still be loved by tons and tons of people.
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May 15, 2020 03:17
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Tony stole Chris's breath, cats steal baby's breath.
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May 15, 2020 03:19
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Bip Roberts posted:Tony stole Chris's breath, cats steal baby's breath. 
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May 15, 2020 03:38
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The cat is a haint. That's where this is going, yes?
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May 15, 2020 04:02
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Bip Roberts posted:Is there a good overview to what the federal case against tony would be with Carlo on the stand. Obviously they have the gun the kid scooped out of the snow but did Carlo witness directly any big crimes. Is there any indication that he might have been flipped already with a wire, it seems the feds don't like just testimony without recorded audio. I think Carlo took over for Vito, who took over for Ralph who was in charge of the Espanade, so Carlo knows everything about the Sopranos family biggest paycheck. So either Tony gets RICO'd or loses out on a huge source of income.
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May 15, 2020 05:36
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Yeah, and Carlo's position also made him the go-between for a lot of the day-to-day stuff between the Sopranos and the Lupertazzis, which is pretty huge.
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May 15, 2020 06:03
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Carlo was also a captain since before Vito's demise. He took over the construction gig after that but apparently he was promoted to captain of old Jimmy Altieri's crew as he was included in the scene where Tony dresses down his captains for not earning enough in 4x01 (captains present being Ralph, Ray Curto, Carlo, and Ally Boy standing in for Larry Boy). So he's had a while in a top tier position. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh11H1A5nwA
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May 15, 2020 09:35
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Actually that reminds me of something I was wondering about. Would the FBI (or rather, a prosecutor) still be able to use the stuff that Ray Curto told them before he died, or is anything that wasn't specifically on tape out the door because it would be considered hearsay? Like, if Carlo is cooperating could they corroborate what Tony said in that video above with the clarifications that Ray gave them when they weren't quite able to hear it clearly?
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May 15, 2020 10:33
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I think without having him be there to testify in court it's all useless. Esp the audio from that tape since nothing incriminating is actually said. Theyd have to start over with Carlo. Everything with Ray is gone.
banned from Starbucks fucked around with this message at 12:13 on May 15, 2020 |
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May 15, 2020 12:11
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Tiptoes posted:Carlo was also a captain since before Vito's demise. He took over the construction gig after that but apparently he was promoted to captain of old Jimmy Altieri's crew as he was included in the scene where Tony dresses down his captains for not earning enough in 4x01 (captains present being Ralph, Ray Curto, Carlo, and Ally Boy standing in for Larry Boy). So he's had a while in a top tier position. I know the show was not terribly interested in giving more background to the supporting characters, but it was always weird Carlo appears out of nowhere and then I don't think we see him again until a couple seasons later.
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May 15, 2020 12:22
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Carlo was also out searching for Vito to kill him under Silvio's orders when he found out that Phil had already done it, that would be of interest to the FBI, especially because Vito's murder ended up being so high-profile.
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May 15, 2020 12:53
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I remember Carlo being a fairly common complaint about the finale, that a not insignificant portion of the audience didn't really even know who he was so they were like "wait, somebody flipped? Who is this Carlo guy again?". Howard Stern and Artie Lange got in an on-air argument about it. Artie was a die-hard obsessive Sopranos fan so he was like dude are you even watching the show? How do you not know who Carlo is? But really I think I come down on Howard Stern's side of the argument, which was that Carlo was not incorporated into the show very naturally and with the long layoffs between seasons it was easy to forget he existed.
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May 15, 2020 14:19
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Seasons 5-7 also feel like they introduce a LOT of new faces and that's where it becomes hard for me to remember who's who.
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May 15, 2020 14:45
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Tater Love 
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Sinteres posted:Hard disagree about Melfi, I don't think there's any coming back from that one. I really just meant it felt like they could find a way to bring them back together - If this were a Showtime show, and it ran for another 5 years beyond where anybody originally involved with the series intended it should.
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May 15, 2020 15:25
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Yeah, it's kind of odd how subdued and calm the final episode really is. All the fireworks were set off and used up in the Blue Comet. I remember feeling palpable tension watching Made in America but it's completely missing on a rewatch, especially the entire last scene in the diner. So much of the buildup is 100% brought by the viewer, not by anything really happening on screen. Just knowing the run time is winding down and all that poo poo with Meadow parallel parking, the dudes buying pastries, nervous/shifty Members Only guy at the counter, the constant cuts to the door etc. had us all on the edge of our seats but it's actually some of the most tame and passive film making in the entire series and, when you watch it again, nothing really happens at all; you just THINK it will. Or thought it would. Your mind knows it's The End and provides any and all tension/anxiety. It's a pretty masterful example of subverting expectations.
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May 15, 2020 15:29
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BiggerBoat posted:Your mind knows it's The End and provides any and all tension/anxiety. It's a pretty masterful example of subverting expectations. I didn't see the Sopranos when it was airing but I binged-watched it start to finish a few years ago, and thanks to autoplay I didn't actually realize I was watching the final episode at the time. I had known about the cut to black from the cultural zeitgeist but even when it happened I was still stunned because it really is an incredibly tense scene. Jerusalem posted:Yeah, and Carlo's position also made him the go-between for a lot of the day-to-day stuff between the Sopranos and the Lupertazzis, which is pretty huge. Is Tony dead/not dead thoughts in spoiler below because I don't remember the thread rules on that: Carlo flipping is why I'm in the Tony is dead camp, because he (Carlo) can now directly link the New York organizations to the actions of the Soprano/DiMeo family. New York just sanctioned the very ugly hit on Phil, and given that the Sopranos crew is now functionally non-existent and isn't likely to be generating big money anytime soon, they have little reason to keep Tony alive. potee fucked around with this message at 17:52 on May 15, 2020 |
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May 15, 2020 17:34
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Jerusalem posted:Actually that reminds me of something I was wondering about. Would the FBI (or rather, a prosecutor) still be able to use the stuff that Ray Curto told them before he died, or is anything that wasn't specifically on tape out the door because it would be considered hearsay? Like, if Carlo is cooperating could they corroborate what Tony said in that video above with the clarifications that Ray gave them when they weren't quite able to hear it clearly? Testimony is inadmissible without a witness to swear to its validity. It’s why people kill witnesses who are about testify. They give a statement, their name gets leaked from the documents and end up dead a week later.
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May 15, 2020 18:14
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BiggerBoat posted:Yeah, it's kind of odd how subdued and calm the final episode really is. All the fireworks were set off and used up in the Blue Comet. I first learned about the Sopranos when people online were going apeshit over the ending. (I'm from Netherlands and I'd never heard of the show before except in passing) About a month later I was at the final scene shaking with anticipation, wondering what the hell was going to happen that made everyone so upset. My jaw hit the floor when the black screen was followed by the credits, I couldn't believe that someone would have the balls to end a show in such a manner. I loved it then and I love it now.
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May 15, 2020 18:36
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i feel like a dummy for just now putting together that after his time in hell christopher told tony about 3 o clock, which if you think the ending is him being killed is where he gets shot from
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May 15, 2020 18:57
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Carlo's actually hanging around in the background in most episodes from season 4 on, but even as a huge fan of the show I'd really struggle to recall anything he says or does between his intro scene and getting uptight about Vito's outing in season 6. I remember reading an interview with Matt Weiner (head writer for later Sopranos seasons, who went on to create Mad Men) where he recalled having told people about their writing a big exit for Eugene Pontecorvo and being surprised that no-one knew who the gently caress that was after three years - in Mad Men he ended up making way more of an effort to give the ensemble characters their own subplots and memorable moments, rather than just tossing them the occasional odd job or Greek chorus type punchline, and it definitely worked.
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May 15, 2020 19:23
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Paper Lion posted:i feel like a dummy for just now putting together that after his time in hell christopher told tony about 3 o clock, which if you think the ending is him being killed is where he gets shot from Uhh. Wouldn't it be more like 7?
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May 15, 2020 20:05
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codo27 posted:Uhh. Wouldn't it be more like 7? https://imgur.com/WCLFrsH 12 is directly in front of you, 3 is to your right
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May 15, 2020 20:28
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Somehow, in my mind I envisioned 9 at the bottom of the clock. I still thought it was behind him, not directly to the side anyway
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May 15, 2020 20:45
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zakharov posted:Seasons 5-7 also feel like they introduce a LOT of new faces and that's where it becomes hard for me to remember who's who. They did. If it weren't for Jerusalem's write-ups I'd be like Who the gently caress is Terry Doria, or Dante or that one fat guy they introduced literally for one scene with Paulie (the Colombian money robbery). Walden Belfiore, or Perry Anunziata. There's just so many. But I guess that could be a story choice. There are so many people in the mafia, it has a high turn around rate, so it makes sense that Tony is brought down by someone who is not quite in his inner circle. Nature of the business.
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May 15, 2020 20:49
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escape artist posted:But I guess that could be a story choice. There are so many people in the mafia, it has a high turn around rate, so it makes sense that Tony is brought down by someone who is not quite in his inner circle. Nature of the business. Are you saying that more than one person flipped? I agree it's possible, but I wouldn't know who to suspect. My first read of the show was that Paulie flipped but that just doesn't seem likely (although, as you point out, there's a lot of stuff that just goes with the business).
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May 15, 2020 22:15
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phasmid posted:Are you saying that more than one person flipped? I agree it's possible, but I wouldn't know who to suspect. My first read of the show was that Paulie flipped but that just doesn't seem likely (although, as you point out, there's a lot of stuff that just goes with the business). No, no. Not at all. Let me try to reword my ramblings. It's more likely that Tony is gonna have some nobody flip on him, than he is to say have another Big Pussy situation, right? Because these foot soldiers have no loyalty to him. We are like Tony, looking for threats from his inner circle (i.e. Paulie), but that's not the right way of thinking. There are so many new people coming and going from the mafia - to the point where it's hard to keep track of everybody's names - they have no loyalty to Tony, they aren't made, they're just employees being chewed up and spit out. So to me, it makes far more sense that we get some rando flipping on Tony, rather than somebody close to him like Paulie. So while many people are going "Who the gently caress is Carlo?", I think that might actually be the point.
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May 15, 2020 23:07
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Think about Blue Comet. Who was it that ended up trying to switch sides and go to NY? It was Burt Gervasi. Somebody who was barely named. Also, the cousin of the person who ended up flipping on Tony. Tony's reaction when Sil tells him who flipped is incredulity. "Burt?!" Of all the places the dissent could come from, it comes from an associate who was only recently made. Somebody who wasn't named until that episode. I think those are deliberate story choices. They are ones I questioned originally, because I felt other people's betrayals could have a better dramatic impact. Logically though, it makes more sense that these people who AREN'T in Tony's inner circle are the ones whose loyalties (or lack thereof) have such impact late in the story.
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May 15, 2020 23:15
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escape artist posted:They did. If it weren't for Jerusalem's write-ups I'd be like Who the gently caress is Terry Doria, or Dante or that one fat guy they introduced literally for one scene with Paulie (the Colombian money robbery). Walden Belfiore, or Perry Anunziata. There's just so many. I felt the same way about The Wire and reading the recaps really helped me keep track of what was what
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May 16, 2020 00:04
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phasmid posted:Are you saying that more than one person flipped? I agree it's possible, but I wouldn't know who to suspect. My first read of the show was that Paulie flipped but that just doesn't seem likely (although, as you point out, there's a lot of stuff that just goes with the business). The actor who played Paulie would only agree to taking the role if his character never flipped and, if memory serves, was semi connected himself at some point
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May 16, 2020 00:07
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I'm sure someone's posted this before, but Tony wasn't exactly Boss of the year when it came to how he treated Carlo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjSad5BDU8M&t=210s Seriously, saying "gently caress that honor and loyalty poo poo" when you're the guy at the top relying on the loyalty of everyone else is pretty stupid. The guy at the top of a pyramid scheme going out of his way to tell everyone they're a bunch of suckers seems like a bad strategy to me.
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May 16, 2020 00:18
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BiggerBoat posted:The actor who played Paulie would only agree to taking the role if his character never flipped and, if memory serves, was semi connected himself at some point https://youtu.be/qxddINwarJk
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May 16, 2020 01:16
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