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For sure. The more you learn about how all this nonsense got started, the more it really does seem like without Giggles Gygax meeting Dave Arneson and all the magic spilling forth from their alliance, our gaming world might be quite different. I find it hard to imagine we would be completely without many of the fundamental RPG concepts that they pioneered/revitalized/popularized, but the way they went about codifying and naming them is used today in possibly literally millions of different games/webpages/projects without any alteration, which says something about the importance of their work. And he also thought it was unrealistic and therefore inappropriate, in a world of all-powerful magic and dragons, that the strongest woman could be as strong as the strongest man. So you know, two cheers and a jeer for E.G.G., is what I am saying
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May 20, 2020 01:04
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Yeah, just saying. Just because the guy was a big name in pen and paper game in the 1970s doesn't mean we have to give a drat about what he thought about the proper way to play Gary Gygax Lord Of The Rings Simulator 1.0. My opinion about the functionality and usefulness of the early AD&D alignment system (but not necessarily the very early alignment system) isn't validated or invalidated just because he had stupid things to say about it.
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May 20, 2020 01:27
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moot the hopple posted:I had the same experience. I got through 1st and thought it was maybe a B- minus game. Dragonfall I completely loved and thought showed many improvements. Same here and I'm not entirely sure why. The setting is great, the writing is fantastic but there's something missing for me. In contrast for Dragonfall, I was on the edge of my seat the whole time - I felt really engaged in the storyline and trying to figure out what was happening and why.
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May 20, 2020 18:15
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Cardiovorax posted:Yeah, just saying. Just because the guy was a big name in pen and paper game in the 1970s doesn't mean we have to give a drat about what he thought about the proper way to play Gary Gygax Lord Of The Rings Simulator 1.0. My opinion about the functionality and usefulness of the early AD&D alignment system (but not necessarily the very early alignment system) isn't validated or invalidated just because he had stupid things to say about it. The appeal to authority in nerd culture is very real, borderline cultish at times, and the one of the more bullshit forms of gatekeeping in gaming.
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May 20, 2020 19:00
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Hong Kong is good, it's fine, but it's just nowhere near as memorable or tightly designed as Dragonfall. They worked perfectly within their limits with DF and it's a great game, HK they tried to do more and... Didn't? Like I remember them talking about how it would be PC only so they didn't have to work within the limits of tablets etc, saying they'd really expanded cyberspace, and... none of that was really apparent. HK is absolutely worth playing it just doesn't live up to the very high DF bar. Also the plot, come on. Your character returns to his childhood home because of prophetic dreams and fights to prevent the return of an evil demon god. Dragonfall had good writing!
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May 20, 2020 20:06
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Yeah, you get hooked into the story much more elegantly in Dragofall. The PC can have pretty much any background you imagine them to have, the only connection is that you used to be a buddy of Monika's and she brought you into the team because she trust you. In Hong Kong, you have this whole elaborate backstory with the foster dad from the opening intro who you're supposed to care about because the game tells you to, you have a Hong Kong slum background, you have this angsty ex-cop foster brother you're also supposed to care about because the game tells you so, and on and on. In Hong Kong, I felt like I needed to play therapist and babysitter to a bunch of incompetent wannabe runners, while in Dragonfall, you have to earn the respect of a competent team that suddenly gotten into trouble way over their heads. Dragonfall made me care about Monika because she's deftly established as a cool character in the opening mission. Hong Kong just falls flat way too often. Maybe it's the disconnect between the story power level and the game mechanics. Hong Kong tries to start you as an inexperienced newbie in a team of rookies, who's under the thumb of some third grade mob boss; but mechanically, you can wipe the floor with everything the game throws at you, much more easily than you could in Dragonfall if you played that at hard difficulty.
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May 20, 2020 20:39
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Dragonfall's the overall tighter game but I'm a Hong Kong guy myself, it has one of my favorite parties in an RPG, and I liked both the overall character writing and the atmosphere a ton. I originally played them pretty much one after another and while I'm a pretty big fan of both, HK was ultimately memorable to me in that "I still find myself thinking about that game a lot" -kind of way that DF didn't quite manage.
Kanfy fucked around with this message at 20:50 on May 20, 2020 |
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May 20, 2020 20:44
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Hannibal Rex posted:In Hong Kong, you have this whole elaborate backstory with the foster dad from the opening intro who you're supposed to care about because the game tells you to, you have a Hong Kong slum background, you have this angsty ex-cop foster brother you're also supposed to care about because the game tells you so, and on and on. In Hong Kong, I felt like I needed to play therapist and babysitter to a bunch of incompetent wannabe runners, while in Dragonfall, you have to earn the respect of a competent team that suddenly gotten into trouble way over their heads. Looking back on it, having HK's particular backstory and connections to others already established for my character didn't sit well with me and got in the way of roleplaying for me. It's weird though, because other games will also have their own fixed history for the main character, yet I don't feel hampered being Gorion's ward, or the Chosen One, or the Vault Dweller or whatever. Not sure what it was about HK that made the stakes so uncompelling.
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May 21, 2020 02:56
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Even most games that give you a specific background still make you a fairly blank slate. Gorion dies first thing and the rest is up to you, for example. Having to deal with an established relationship to a foster father and brother is a lot more confining than is usual for the genre.
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May 21, 2020 03:04
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Gonna make the best game ever where you are Gordon Freeman, Gorion's Ward from Vault 101
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May 21, 2020 03:06
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Cardiovorax posted:The problem with morality systems in RPGs is that too many people don't get the point of them. The original alignment system of D&D was meant to be nothing more than descriptive of actions, not motivations. If you're a lawful good hero, you do good things for the well-being of a society and its people. If you're chaotic evil villain, you break laws and hurt people for your own benefit. It wasn't ever supposed to be a nine-stage spectrum of how people actually think and the worst thing a game can possibly do is to actually try for that and make some formalized model of what motivates your character, when the entire point of role-playing a character is that deciding this is supposed to be your job. That was also my takeaway; alignment isn't supposed to be the hard-set way your character behaves, but more of general archetype under which the character falls. Baldur's Gate is sort of funny in that outside of character classes, spells, and items, alignment doesn't really play a role as much as the Reputation system does. It states at character creation that deviating from your alignment will results in consequences, but apart from becoming a fallen paladin or ranger if your rep drops too low, I don't think there's anything else. You could roll a Neutral Evil character, but still reach the highest reputation from doing quests, which would get you a discount at shops and give you the good aligned Bhaalspawn powers. The only catch is that if you let your reputation get too high, evil-aligned characters will leave the party. Someone pointed out over in the IE thread, however, that the main villain of BG1 is interesting in that he presents himself as an upstanding hero while manipulating things behind the scenes. You could design a system that tracks your perception among people versus your actual deeds. Then again, that's not much different from the Karma/Reputation system from New Vegas. - The issue I have with morality systems (which may just be a personal preference) is that I almost never play an evil character. Even when I think to try and play an evil character, I still find myself opting for the 'good' or charitable options in dialog or quest choices. There's the typical problem of 'being excessively evil for no justifiable reason', but I think there's also a meta-gaming aspect to it. For example, you have the 'mercenary who will only do stuff if they get paid' option of evil, but unless you're sticking to strict role-playing rules, you might pick the charitable option because you know doing a quest will net you experience or items you collect from a dungeon or enemies or whatever. I think there's also a perfectionist aspect to it as well. I'm the kind of person who always likes to shoot for the 'best' or 'Good+' ending in a game, so I'll look at a guide or something to make sure I'm making the right choices in a quest-line. Going outside of RPGs for a moment, stealth games often give player the choice to complete the game non-lethally, with the challenge of being limited to the tools they can use. Something that's I think is more engaging is not presenting the player with a question of what they're doing is good or evil, but whether what they're doing is wise or not. One of the reasons why the start of Planescape Torment really resonated with me is because one of the first things you're told is, "Don't tell anybody about your 'condition' and don't tell anybody you're looking for your journal." You get the option to do that both of those things in dialog, but I never did, because I was worried it would come back to bite me later in some way.
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May 21, 2020 05:13
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moot the hopple posted:Looking back on it, having HK's particular backstory and connections to others already established for my character didn't sit well with me and got in the way of roleplaying for me. It's weird though, because other games will also have their own fixed history for the main character, yet I don't feel hampered being Gorion's ward, or the Chosen One, or the Vault Dweller or whatever. Not sure what it was about HK that made the stakes so uncompelling.
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May 21, 2020 09:18
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Agreed on the idea that reputation is a better tool in games than alignment. I really loved how Spiderweb's Geneforge series handled reputation, where all the factions you can gain reputation with have hardliners and moderates, and all of them have situations where doing the morally right thing gains you reputation, and all of them have situations where doing the morally reprehensible thing gains you reputation. A thing I'd really like to see more of in games with reputation and factions is more ability to switch sides. If you align yourselves strongly with one group, the others shouldn't send assassins after you -- they know you're an adventurer who is motivated by loot, so they should send diplomats willing to make you a better offer than whoever you're working for.
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May 21, 2020 09:47
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I do feel it's fine to have some groups that are all "if you're not with us you're against us" though.
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May 21, 2020 10:29
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I did not like PoE1 much but am slightly tempted by this v good deal on PoE2 with all dlc https://www.fanatical.com/en/game/pillars-of-eternity-ii-deadfire-obsidian-edition - don't think I've seen it anywhere near this price before
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May 21, 2020 13:05
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If you're brave enough to endure serious eastern european game jank, Deep Shadow's entire series of games (Boiling Point/White Gold/The Precursors) merge Everquest 1/2 faction-reputation system with open-ended gameplay where you can loot anything/kill anything/drive anything/go anywhere but there will be a faction hit from your actions (if detected/observed doing so). The proc gen'd missions from random civilians in Deep Shadow's games can get pretty dark too. The most polished Deep Shadows game is probably the Precursors which includes a spaceflight/space-sim mode once you complete the increasingly skeevy missions from the dude(planetary governor) holding your spaceship in hock on the tutorial world. Doing the skeevy missions for the planetary governor is probably optional, never progressed the factions in the bar or the weird alien thing in the northern most point of the map defended by dive-bombing Cliffdivers on PCP.
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May 21, 2020 13:16
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And for people earlier in this thread who found the Wizardry 6 & Wizardry 7 god-awful looking to modern eyes, try switching to the "rgb3x" render + "ddraw" output modes in your dosbox conf file (not applicable for Windows version Wizardry 7 users). The DOSBox RGB render sets a pixelated filtered display mode/better emulates the visual "look" computer monitors of the late 1980's-1990's were capable of displaying. This is pretty useful for emulating/playing other 1990's games too. An GOG Jagged Alliance 1/Jagged Alliance Deadly Games install with the default GOG dosbox.conf settings went from being muddy looking to sharp with the following changes. Same for my standalone Mechwarrior 2 DOSBox installs. here's what I modified in my in my dosbox config files for Wizardry 6/JA series/Mechwarrior 2 series/etc [sdl] fullscreen=false fulldouble=false fullresolution=fixed windowresolution=1200x900 output=ddraw [render] aspect=true scaler=rgb3x
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May 21, 2020 15:26
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rgb3x looks nothing like 90s monitors though? Filters look really ugly to me, it makes the whole image blacked out. You are better off using the "pixel-perfect" output found in Dosbox ECE if you are looking for something more authentic.
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May 21, 2020 15:45
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Joe Chill posted:rgb3x looks nothing like 90s monitors though? Filters look really ugly to me, it makes the whole image blacked out. You are better off using the "pixel-perfect" output found in Dosbox ECE if you are looking for something more authentic. what are you trying to play that gets blacked out/what do you mean by "blacked out"? this? https://www.dosbox.com/wiki/Scaler
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May 21, 2020 15:50
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quantumfoam posted:what are you trying to play that gets blacked out/what do you mean by "blacked out"? How dark the image is: https://www.dosbox.com/wiki/Scaler The normal2x/3x is more accurate.
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May 21, 2020 15:53
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Joe Chill posted:How dark the image is: Right. Normal 2x/3x looks more accurate for Doom in zoomed up screenshots. Even though rgb 2x/3x looks like rear end in the screenshot on the website, try using the RGB render like I suggested in Wizardry 6 or Jagged Alliance 1/JA: DG. It costs you nothing to try and just might impress you. Looked at the DOSBox ECE thing you mentioned.....and the "pixel-perfect" output mode you mentions seems to have been dropped.
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May 21, 2020 16:05
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moot the hopple posted:I had the same experience. I got through 1st and thought it was maybe a B- minus game. Dragonfall I completely loved and thought showed many improvements. I wish I had known that the max number of weapon slots is 3 and that decks and drones count as weapons.
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May 21, 2020 16:58
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Lunchmeat Larry posted:I did not like PoE1 much but am slightly tempted by this v good deal on PoE2 with all dlc https://www.fanatical.com/en/game/pillars-of-eternity-ii-deadfire-obsidian-edition - don't think I've seen it anywhere near this price before Deadfire improves on PoE1 in every way, and there's a (kind of janky) turn-based mode to boot. Colorful pirate adventures are way more exciting than the oddly generic slog that was the first game (minus the expansions, which were great). Plus you get to kick colonialists and slavers in the teeth if you're into that sort of thing.
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May 21, 2020 19:37
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I’ve said it in another thread, but Deadfire is the pinnacle of the Infinity Engine RtWP style of game going back to Baldurs Gate. It’s the best and I’m so bitter we might not get another sequel.
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May 21, 2020 19:55
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Lunchmeat Larry posted:I did not like PoE1 much but am slightly tempted by this v good deal on PoE2 with all dlc https://www.fanatical.com/en/game/pillars-of-eternity-ii-deadfire-obsidian-edition - don't think I've seen it anywhere near this price before It was that much on steam on like, monday. I grabbed it then and am gonna poke at it as soon as I finish with Terraria 1.4.
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May 21, 2020 20:04
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quantumfoam posted:Right. Normal 2x/3x looks more accurate for Doom in zoomed up screenshots. Even though rgb 2x/3x looks like rear end in the screenshot on the website, try using the RGB render like I suggested in Wizardry 6 or Jagged Alliance 1/JA: DG. It costs you nothing to try and just might impress you. The pixel-perfect scaler got broken in the newer releases so it got taken out. But the webpage has links to the older versions Dosbox ECE when it worked. It's not necessary but if you want accuracy then pixel-perfect is the way to go. I tried the RGP scaler with Wiz6 and it looks bad, just like doomguy's mug in the wiki. The pixels are nice and crisp looking. However the scaler uses scanlines. So instead of colorful pixels the scanlines dulls the pixels, darkening the overall picture. The pixel-perfect scaler has the sharp picture without the pseudo scanlines making the picture dark.
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May 21, 2020 20:34
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Interesting, this is probably the first thread I've seen where people weren't unanimous about Hong Kong being the best Shadowrun game. I guess I see your point, but at the same time I don't see it... Your backstory is such a small part of the game, except as a catalyst for events that far surpass family drama...
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May 21, 2020 21:43
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I also liked Dragonfall better. Just seemed to be a tighter experience.
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May 21, 2020 21:55
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That's probably true, on the other hand, when I think about RPGs, "tight" generally isn't what they feel like.
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May 22, 2020 00:00
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chaosapiant posted:I’ve said it in another thread, but Deadfire is the pinnacle of the Infinity Engine RtWP style of game going back to Baldurs Gate. It’s the best and I’m so bitter we might not get another sequel. I mean I have still not played either of the Original Sins, maybe those feel good too, but I doubt it is the same. It will be interesting to see if the next Pathfinder game improves on Kingmaker, though, considering I still feel it a strong contender for most Baldur's-Gate-like title ever.
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May 22, 2020 01:59
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Dr. Quarex posted:It really is pretty great. Even though I am increasingly thinking the Baldur's Gate Full Experience All Games And Expansions might be my favorite collective "game" of all time... This is also where I land as far as Baldurs Gate goes. I think Deadfire is the technically/systemically better game. The the BG trilogy back to back is the best continuous RPG and sense of power progression that ever existed. I also play The Witcher games the same way: all three back to back and it works in a similar way. Pathfinder Kingmaker is also loving awesome. It takes some time to spin up, but the game is really great now that’s it’s patched and has mods, like the turn based mod. I love RtWP, but for Pathfinder, turn based is the most “natural” way to play it, and you can toggle it on and off so you can handle each fight however you like. If you like BG and Pillars, I HIGHLY recommend Pathfinder.
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May 22, 2020 02:48
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Thanks for all the responses. Plenty to think about. Reputation is something I've also given some thought to but not implemented yet beyond at a party level and with some key NPCs. Trying to nail down the Moral Compass (which has 360 degrees around and 100 points from moderate centre to extreme on the periphery) and see what different combinations play out like, and then test a coupled vs decoupled reputation system. One of the things I am enjoying designing is having the same action or utterance (in dialogue) motivated by different things. Thus the world gets to see Action A, but your moral alignment can still be affected in X or Y ways, so intent matters, and you don't get obviously punished for being the evil bastard. Combining this with on the nose things from each moral quadrant is challenging but fun as well. Anyway, still got a long way to go with this game and a lot of design work to go. Loved the feedback you guys have posted. Oh and while we're at it, Shadowrun: - Returns was really, really fun for what it was. A cyberpunk detective noir story with some cool characters and passable combat. - Dragonfall had the best story of the bunch, the most memorable and the only one I find myself wanting to replay. - Hong Kong had the most polish and the most going on in it, but I share the same concerns as someone earlier in the thread where it is hard to have to care about someone because you're told to. Some awesome characters and some great unique artwork. (We used the same studio as them, Mighty Vertex, for some of our environment art by the way! But while Broken Roads does construct some environments and buildings from tilesets, we don't have tile-based maps in quite the same way.)
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May 22, 2020 03:33
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spiderwebs catalogue is for sale on steam, any standouts? the whole collection is pretty cheap but there's no way i have that kind of time..
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May 22, 2020 03:51
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Kinda depends on taste, if you ask me the newest avernum trilogy and geneforge 4 and 5. The Avadon games are also respectable.
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May 22, 2020 09:17
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I'd recommend Geneforge once the remake comes out, since it's old and runs at a fixed fullscreen 640x480 or something like that. I really liked Geneforge 2 but it's in much the same boat and it'll be a while before he gets around to remaking it.
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May 22, 2020 09:47
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steinrokkan posted:Interesting, this is probably the first thread I've seen where people weren't unanimous about Hong Kong being the best Shadowrun game. Pretty surprising if this is the first time you've heard that, like I said I consider Hong Kong heck, one of my favorite RPGs of all time probably, but Dragonfall's definitely always been the "if you're only going to play one then play that one" -entry of that series. Returns is "The First (But Kinda Mediocre) One", Dragonfall is "The Best One", and Hong Kong is the "If You Want More After Dragonfall" -one, traditionally. I imagine how much you like HK depends a ton on how much you enjoy the characters and dialogue because they do definitely occupy a disproportionally large chunk of that game's content, so if that part's a miss for you then the rest is unlikely to be able to carry it. It also could've used a patch or two more as it has quite a lot of typos and bugs, though it does otherwise run way smoother than Dragonfall which eventually starts chugging during saves and such no matter your hardware.
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May 22, 2020 09:57
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Artelier posted:spiderwebs catalogue is for sale on steam, any standouts? the whole collection is pretty cheap but there's no way i have that kind of time.. Queen's Wish is the newest but I haven't seen much discussion of it - it was a Kickstarter to make a relatively up-to-date game, but last time Vogel did that he made the shite Avadon games so I hope that's not what happened here. In any case it'll certainly be less of a time investment than any of his massive sagas. Also I skipped PoE2 and picked up Tower of Time for £4 on Steam
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May 22, 2020 10:09
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According to the Spiderweb thread, which I follow, Queen's Wish is an excellent and also incredibly ugly game, even by Spiderweb Games standards. The Geneforge series is something I absolutely recommend. I love them dearly and they are very good about doing reputation instead of morality in the way many here have asked for. There is rarely a good side or a bad side, there is only the side that you agree with the most. There have even been playthroughs where I went full Shaper and did not feel bad about it - their powers are incredibly, incredibly dangerous and need to be controlled with an iron fist, or someone might literally end the world with them on pure accident. Despite that, they managed to create a stable society that lasted for centuries, which says something. Mind you, they're also massive assholes with a god complex, though.
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May 22, 2020 13:00
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Shadowrun Hong Kong made the matrix maps waaaay to big and repetitive. By the end of the game I'd gotten sick of them and just used the dev console to kill all the ICE in every room so I could just go straight to the target.
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May 22, 2020 13:50
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I'm going to have a third go at Kingmaker. What are the absolute bad trap classes people talk about? That will hurt enjoyment of the game for someone levelling through, not something which will weaken your potential endgame god character please.
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May 22, 2020 14:57
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