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 POLLS ARE CLOSED Ideas: Diplomatic: 21 (TheFlyingLlama, Mr.Morgenstern, Ralepozozaxe, ThatBasqueGuy, Jossar, idhrendur, Sanzh, NewMars, Dr_Gee, Rody One Half, Technowolf, Lynneth, QuoProQuid, SirPhoebos, Iceblocks, AJ_Impy, Viola the Mad, super-redguy, The Bold Kobold, habeusdorkus, Gravity Cant Apple) Aristocratic: 5 (Lord Cyrahzax, Chatrapati, Retarded Goatee, Jeoh, Ferrovanadium) Quality: 4 (MaxieSatan, PurpleXVI, Akratic Method, zealouscub) Trade: 2 (Pacho, Mirdini) Quantity: 2 (Xelkelvos, Tulip) Economic: 1 (Soup du Jour) Espionage: 1(Albino Squirrel) Exploration: 1 (HereticMIND) Religious: 1 (Coward) Government Reforms: Parliament: 20 (TheFlyingLlama, Mr.Morgenstern, Ralepozozaxe, ThatBasqueGuy, Jossar, idhrendur, Sanzh, NewMars, Dr_Gee, Rody One Half, Technowolf, Lynneth, QuoProQuid, SirPhoebos, Iceblocks, AJ_Impy, Viola the Mad, super-redguy, zealouscub, The Bold Kobold) Aristocratic Court: 8 (Lord Cyrahzax, Chatrapati, Soup du Jour, Retarded Goatee, Jeoh, habeusdorkus, Gravity Cant Apple, Ferrovanadium) General Estates: 5 (Xelkelvos, Tulip, MaxieSatan, Pacho, Mirdini) States General: 4 (Albino Squirrel, PurpleXVI, HereticMIND, Akratic Method) Royal Decree: 1(Coward) With 38 votes, our proposals will be Diplomatic Ideas and Parliamentary Reforms.
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May 23, 2020 02:00
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But what of parliament?
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May 23, 2020 02:12
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zealouscub posted:What is known about the Taira and Korea?   The Chiba branch of the ancient Taira clan have undisguised supremacy over Japan, with only a few minor lords retaining a fragile independence. The Ainu in the north have retained most of Hokkaido, and the fanatical Ikko-Ikki have been reduced to Suo.  Incredibly, they look to the leadership of their ancient ruler, said to be blessed with an unnaturally long life, and given divine gifts.  Queen Toku is has a reputation for kindness and virtue and treats her subjects with fairness and dignity.  Also of note is the republic of Sō, controlled by a mercantile elite which controls Tsushima, all of Kyushu, the Ryukyu Islands, and the northern tip of Taiwan. They have profited immensely from the disorder in mainland China.  Even greater than the Taira, however, is the great kingdom of Korea. After the death of Sejong the Great and his son Munjong, the throne of Korea passed between two warring families. At present, however, the queen-regent Hyejeong, now in her 8th decade of life, has overseen the kingdom's conquest of the north and its intrigues against the Chinese successor states to its west.  At present, Korea is at war with many of the Chinese successor states, but its military might is enough to assume a fair chance of victory.  Regent Hyejeong has seen the Manchus driven before her; and the Chinese successor states may only be the next course of a great banquet.
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May 23, 2020 04:36
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Gods, I would laugh if Korea ends up in charge of China.
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May 23, 2020 17:12
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Josef bugman posted:Gods, I would laugh if Korea ends up in charge of China. The Sui Dynasty collapsed almost entirely because of the domestic side effects from repeated, brutal losses to (non-unified!) Korea, but that's mostly a testament to how limiting offensive operations can be.
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May 23, 2020 18:12
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The Taira appear to have calmed down considerably, although I wonder what the Tale of Heike would be like in this timeline, or would it be the Tale of Genji and be about the fall of the Minamoto. Did the Taira usurp or marry into the Japanese Imperial line? I see they're ruled by a queen, I don't play much EU4 but is kingdom generic or are they using the Shogun government? Buddhists live really long in this timeline, 117 years! Korea is rebuilding the Balhae borders, they could be a serious contender for unifying China if this keeps up, which would really shake things up, or they could go east into the Other World.
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May 23, 2020 21:48
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zealouscub posted:The Taira appear to have calmed down considerably, although I wonder what the Tale of Heike would be like in this timeline, or would it be the Tale of Genji and be about the fall of the Minamoto. Did the Taira usurp or marry into the Japanese Imperial line? I see they're ruled by a queen, I don't play much EU4 but is kingdom generic or are they using the Shogun government? Here's the part where I admit I'm not so familiar with the Shogunate Daimyo mechanics, but this occurred in 1522.  So it seems like the old Ashikaga shogunate was formally dissolved after the Taira seized Kyoto, although they have been expanding for decades before that. I've also added some more screenshots to the previous explanatory posts if anybody is interested.
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May 24, 2020 00:56
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What the heck is the Taira's flag? It looks like an album cover for some weird, pretentious numetal band.
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May 24, 2020 01:01
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megane posted:What the heck is the Taira's flag? It looks like an album cover for some weird, pretentious numetal band. It's a butterfly.
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May 24, 2020 01:39
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Thanks for the event screenshot, that let me hunt it down on the wiki. That event fires when a Daimyo takes Kyoto and becomes the new Shogun, so Toku I is the Shogun and the Japanese imperial dynasty is still technically in charge, which means the queen title is just generic to kingdom tier nations.
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May 24, 2020 05:06
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zealouscub posted:Thanks for the event screenshot, that let me hunt it down on the wiki. That event fires when a Daimyo takes Kyoto and becomes the new Shogun, so Toku I is the Shogun and the Japanese imperial dynasty is still technically in charge, which means the queen title is just generic to kingdom tier nations. That's what confuses me, actually--that event does trigger when a daimyo takes Kyoto, so it indicates that the Taira are ruling as a shogunate. But I've played several Japanese games, and my rare female rulers always had the (admittedly awful) Shoguness title. Maybe the queen title is a mod quirk? 
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May 24, 2020 06:59
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Viola the Mad posted:That's what confuses me, actually--that event does trigger when a daimyo takes Kyoto, so it indicates that the Taira are ruling as a shogunate. But I've played several Japanese games, and my rare female rulers always had the (admittedly awful) Shoguness title. Maybe the queen title is a mod quirk? I think it’s more likely that the title is indicative of a change in status, something has happened somewhere that has pushed the country out of the special Japanese mechanics. Possibly an event or a government reform that isn’t blocked off properly from being switched to by daimyo/shoguns. I think the Taira are just a regular kingdom now.
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May 24, 2020 10:19
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megane posted:What the heck is the Taira's flag? It looks like an album cover for some weird, pretentious numetal band. It's a version of the historical mon of the Taira clan, which as Tulip noted is supposed to resemble a butterfly (more specifically, a swallowtail butterfly): 
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May 24, 2020 17:24
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Viola the Mad posted:(admittedly awful) Shoguness title. Jesus. "Shogun" is already gender neutral, and "-ess" isn't a valid set of sounds in Japanese. What a poo poo show.
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May 24, 2020 17:35
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Mirdini posted:It's a version of the historical mon of the Taira clan, which as Tulip noted is supposed to resemble a butterfly (more specifically, a swallowtail butterfly): The variant used in the game is  Admittedly doesn't show up well in EU4's shield interface
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May 24, 2020 18:05
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Reveilled posted:I think it’s more likely that the title is indicative of a change in status, something has happened somewhere that has pushed the country out of the special Japanese mechanics. Possibly an event or a government reform that isn’t blocked off properly from being switched to by daimyo/shoguns. I think the Taira are just a regular kingdom now. I think you're right actually, I looked up how to change away from the Shogun/Daimyo government and the only way to do that is to either form Japan, which would change the tag from Taira to Japan, or have an estate disaster force a government change. Since the Taira haven't changed tag and are led by a queen they had to have had a disaster force them to change government. Which means the Imperial Dynasty might or might not be around, depending on if in story the Taira marry into the Imperial dynasty or make a new one.
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May 24, 2020 19:23
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zealouscub posted:I think you're right actually, I looked up how to change away from the Shogun/Daimyo government and the only way to do that is to either form Japan, which would change the tag from Taira to Japan, or have an estate disaster force a government change. Since the Taira haven't changed tag and are led by a queen they had to have had a disaster force them to change government. Hmm...going by the OTL, it would be more likely that the Taira would have married into the imperial family. In the years leading up to the Genpei war, the Fujiwara hijacked power from the emperors by marrying their daughters into the family and then controlling the heir's upbringing. When the very ambitious Taira no Kiyomori clawed his way into power, he took a page out of the Fujiwara's book and married his daughter Tokuko to Emperor Takakura, and forced the emperor to abdicate as soon as the couple produced a son (Emperor Antoku). Under this model of governance, it doesn't really matter whether or not the Taira family have been granted the title "shogun" or not, they are the ruling family of Japan. However, Taira dominance in this timeline doesn't come from a relatively simple conflict between two upstart bushi clans; the starting scenario is more reminiscent of the Warring States (Sengoku) Era. Under this type of social disintegration, it's quite possible that the imperial family faded into obscurity, or became so irrelevant that the Taira decided that it wasn't worth keeping them around as puppets to justify the regime. For point of reference, the OTL Sengoku era lasted about a century and change, and the effectively independent daimyo continued to use court titles to legitimize themselves throughout. But OTL Sengoku era started in 1467, after the rise and fall of two separate shogunates, which would have established the "military ruler-imperial puppet" model firmly enough in the minds of the nobility--firmly enough to give them a model to work towards in their power struggles. Our timeline, on the other hand, has three states competing with the usual daimyo--the Ikko-ikko, the So, and the Ainu. To me, this says that imperial/shogunate/whatever authority collapsed some time before the starting date of 1444. Enough time has passed that the Ikko-Ikki and the So have not only been able to assert their independence, but establish themselves as their own, functional regime. The Ainu have also had enough time to conquer most of northern Japan. In my opinion, the mere existence of these three states would also weaken the influence of the imperial family simply by providing alternate models of governance--alternate models that are threatening the military ruler-imperial puppet society, no less. Having conquered Shikoku and most of Honshu themselves, the Taira may be wondering if it's really worth keeping these rather expensive puppets around (assuming the family still exists). One final possibility is that the imperial family exists for purely religious reasons. From the rise of the Yamato rice kingdom, the imperial family as a whole was always responsible for performing certain important rituals. I think the reasoning was that as Amaterasu's descendants, they were uniquely able to petition the gods on the behalf of the people (don't quote me on this, though). I'm fairly certain that at least some of their puppetmasters used the family's ritual status to justify sidelining the emperor; the emperor is just too important and sacred and pure to be bothered with filthy earthly affairs like ruling the country! In this timeline, perhaps the title tenno is considered purely religious, and would never be translated to "emperor" as it in OTL. The Taira are the de facto and de jure rulers, and maintain the "imperial" family as part of their general responsibilities for maintaining religious institutions. (Sorry for sperging, Japanese history is sort of a hobby of mine.)
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May 24, 2020 21:31
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Viola the Mad posted:[Snip] Sperging is what we're here for. That said, I really like the interpretation of the Tenno being a purely ceremonial or religious title in this timeline.
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May 25, 2020 19:50
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I'm sure the Nivkh will kick Koreans butts and take over China
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May 25, 2020 20:00
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Viola the Mad posted:(Sorry for sperging, Japanese history is sort of a hobby of mine.) You have absolutely nothing to be sorry for here, I love this discussion Negostrike posted:I'm sure the Nivkh will kick Koreans butts and take over China I would not count out the Chavchuveny or the Chukchi Just a brief announcement for the LP: I'm going to make a brief update sometime this week and then I'll be gone for a while because I'm moving. I hope to resume regular updates sometime this summer.
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May 26, 2020 00:33
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Chapter 64: 1532 to 1534 - The Wheel Turns Further extracts of the memoirs of General Dolkar Senöl Nam.  Looking back, it was much easier than I had feared to convince the elector-king about the need for more diplomacy and more envoys in foreign courts. So long as anything was presented to him in military terms -- in this case, like scouting out the terrain ahead -- then he could be convinced of its use.  Emissaries and nobles were soon dispatched to the major courts of the Sacred Tibetan Empire.  And the court in Lhasa, which was for so long focused on uninterrupted conquest, had to make itself used to its position as only the largest court among many, and not their undisputed master.  Yet many feared, within the great councils and the church, that Tibet would slip further behind, and find itself eclipsed by other powers.  We -- by this I mean the nobility and the ecclesiastic authorities -- hungered for new rumors and information about our competitors and sent out informers to report on what they had seen and heard.   The Sacred Hierarchy in Markam and Dege kept close ties with our court - we were their protector, and many of the nobility and army were faithful. Their greatest threats were some of the remaining nobility who fought for the imperial throne in China, and we were ready to stand with them. In turn, they were able to provide backing for some of our own ventures. The Sacred Hierarch himself had no ability to convince people of anything were it not for the powers of his office, and so he relied on a small army of functionaries.   Another elector in the south was Andhra, ruled by Thrimalö II - a Purgyal. While they were descendants of the imperial family, they had renounced the authority of the church in all but name. They had been involved in some unsuccessful border clashes with Keladi. They are not particularly mighty, their court is in debt, but they still had their name. They had signed an alliance with the elected Emperor in Rajputana, and the Telugu-speaking nobles were content enough to not rebel.   In the far northwest tip of the Empire, the elector-kingdom of Punjab ruled from Peshawar in the north to Uch in the south. Their king, Pungtsen, was a descendant of the Dringma family which seized power in the 1430s. They had formed alliances with Baghelkhand and Malwa as a counter to the emperor in Rajputana, but their own subjects - the Balochis - were nearing a state of rebellion.   Delhi was a bit of a misnomer - they were one of the weakest of the elector-kingdoms and did not even control the city of Delhi proper. Daulat Khan was a brave warrior, although there were rumors that he had entertained new and dangerous thinkers. He feared both his powerful neighbors.   Bengal is another elector-kingdom with a name that does not match its original location. Queen Thridang II Yümai is legendary for her skill in negotiation. She has married a Purgyal herself, and finds herself balancing between the competing ambitions of her neighbors in Orissa, Baghelkhand, and the many Bengali nobles who talk among themselves about reclaiming what was theirs.   Rajputana, the land of the Rajputs, has held the elected seat of the Sacred Tibetan Empire since 1519. King Rapsel is not an impressive figure himself, but a cipher of multiple competing court factions under the church and wealthy merchant cartels. Under his reign, Rajputana has seen some exhaustive conquests west, towards the Timurids, but these have exhausted the court's treasury.   The greatest of the electors, and indeed our most serious rival in the region, is Tamilakam. Queen Phurbulcam, of the ancient Myang noble family, oversees a wealthy, strong, and extensive kingdom protecting multiple wealthy city-states. Her great ships have gone south and west for their own ends, and our own disastrous war against them shows they are not to be underestimated. They compete with Ayutthaya for trade routes east. While the royal family had a Tibetan name, the Tamil and Sinhalese nobles were truly in charge.  Besides the electors, of course, there are other realms of note. Of these are Malwa, Marathas, and Golkonda, all led by other members of the Purgyal family, and Baghelkhand, which has proved to be too much of a threat before and was destroyed by a coalition of its neighbors.  But back to the court in Lhasa. The king's own temper had simmered down as he entered his late 20s. He developed other interests. He grew enamored with the kingdom's own trade and the production of silk finery.  Some of the old guards in the army had hoped to convince him to let them stay, with a demonstration of their archery, hitting many targets afield and piercing sets of armor. But he was unconvinced -- he screamed at a few of them for having "lost his war". Those of us who had met elsewhere were happy that he had sided with us against them. With this wise counsel, he had made more wise decisions.  This was around the time word had spread of the Han voyages to the east and the islands they had found there.  Some nobles had fallen under the delusion that they knew best; that we who were advising the king were mistaken, and so they planned to rebel against this to spread their own misgivings.  The army was soon sent to destroy this traitors' plot.  As I set out on the campaign, I saw a great comet, blue, across the night sky, and I had clung to my horse so tightly he bolted. I had first thought it was Ketu, only visible during eclipses - but there was no eclipse. What was it? For what reason did I see such a sight? Was it a sign of great evil and chaos, and wars not seen for over a century? I felt the hot winds of fate.  I raised my axe and led the army into battle; my mind was not directed towards my duty fully, but we drove the enemy away and the rebellion was crushed.  On the way back to Lhasa, I found two priests who had gotten into an argument with a poor nomad over a shrine in a state of disrepair. I unfastened my wool overcoat, showed my knife, and ordered they cease their bickering. I then set about ordering the shrine restored and the prayer flags cleaned. The nomad came up to me, thanking me profusely, for keeping the faith alive.  Duty is its own reward.  For we would need it in the years ahead.  We would soon hear rumors - of militant pilgrims and their own declarations of piety. Of new monks and witches declaring their own authority over all, of those proclaiming the end of the world, of the irreedemed state of humankind, of the need for salvation, of the need to commit violence in the name of salvation, of great sword bearers in the countryside.  It was under these circumstances that the Parliament of the Elector-Kingdom of Tibet met for the first time. Kangxi fucked around with this message at 11:23 on Jun 23, 2020 |
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May 27, 2020 03:28
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Oh snap, 30 years war in asia is going to be ludicrous.
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May 27, 2020 04:52
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Let's get wild
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May 27, 2020 05:12
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May 27, 2020 07:35
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EU4 has a kill counter at the end of wars right? Can we get a shot of that when all these civilized and peaceful discussions between the Sacred Hierachy and these protesters are over?
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May 28, 2020 05:50
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 What are you talking about, sighting the soul of Laysa can only be a good omen! She still cares for us!  There was only one Tse, she just appeared twice. And she was always a ཡི་དྭགས. Should she appear again, she must be struck down with all of our might, or we risk doom.
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May 28, 2020 19:47
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habeasdorkus posted:There was only one Tse, she just appeared twice. And she was always a ཡི་དྭགས. Should she appear again, she must be struck down with all of our might, or we risk doom. Sounds like crypto-Buddhism to me. But I'm sure no one here would be vulnerable to such heresy!
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May 28, 2020 22:50
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Fivemarks posted:I'm not gonna lie, everytime I read "Malwa", I think of the Belisarius books. I'm just catching up on the thread now, still two pages behind, and had to acknowledge this: Me too friend. I always do a double take when I see the name after a while and their blob isn't, well, huge
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Jun 8, 2020 04:46
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I'm actually rereading those books right now 
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Jun 8, 2020 05:16
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First Formal Session of the Assembly of the Elector-Kingdom of Tibet There is an uneasy peace in Lhasa. All the peoples of the world still make their residence here, the pilgrims still make their circuits around the sacred sites, and the buildings of the city are still positioned, like spokes of a wheel, around the centers of belief and authority. It is 1534, and the King-Elector, Mutik II, after much delay and hesitation, has convened his assembly of the crown lands and is even willing to listen to what they have to say. While he is not a totally incompetent king by any measure, his inability to convince his subordinates of his plans and to persuade them to join him means that other factions are willing to find opportunities to advance their own interests and set forth their own conspiracies.  The Great Tibet Faction, centered around Lhasa and the U-Tsang regions in general as well as the conquered Burmese territory, prefers to strengthen the power of the emperor at the expense of the nobles further afield. They are more interested in military adventurism, and in expanding the kingdom's capacity only to that end.  By contrast, the Descendants, based around Guge, western Amdo, Sikkim, and Eastern Nepal, as well as some of the elites in Kashmir and Bengal, were not so inclined and they preferred to strengthen their own power at the expense of the center. They would be interested in improvements in more distant areas of the empire, or possible expansion to the west or south. They are aware that we have had no emperors or empresses like Gyalyum the Benevolent, or Lasya the Conqueror for some time, so we don't need to follow their every word. They are an even split between allowing religious expression and pluralism, and those who would prefer to suppress it.  The Great Root faction encompasses much of the land-holding clergy and the heads of major monasteries. Their leadership is centered around the Sacred Hierarchy, and the figure of the Memri Trizin. They are not nearly as expansionist, but if so they are also interested in expansion at the expense of the Chinese successor states, or at least the more fanatical Buddhists. They are willing to be accommodating of Hindus and Sikhs, but less so towards nearly all the Buddhist lineages.  Finally, the Middle Division are those representatives of the merchants and wealthy peasantry. While their lineage has completely shut them out of absolute power or much of the top positions in the bureaucracy, they have considerable power in managing foreign trade or shepherding their holdings of land or animals. Their interest is in developing the realm and avoiding war as the tax cuts into their livelihoods, and the conscription of peasants is not always popular. Among the factions, they are among the most tolerant of different faiths and peoples. Hello! It's been a while since my last post, as I've had to put everything I own into cardboard boxes and move to another state in the middle of a global pandemic. But now that I'm settled in, I hope to resume regular updates. For this part of the post, please put one of the above flags into your post to signal what faction you are now representing. This will affect Tibet's actions more generally, and what it will spend its large, but not infinite, resources on. code: Stories of rebellion have come up from the south, in the Yamuna River valley. We have heard stories of monasteries and temples being set afire, and of a new upheaval. We've had these before, of course. So many self-proclaimed prophets and evil spirits. Normally we would let the local rulers handle it.  The elector-kingdom was a considerable distance away, and information was scarce. More worrying is that we have heard absolutely nothing from the court in Sirmur. Delhi is the weakest of the eight electors, and they do not even hold the city of Delhi anymore, but their disintegration would have dramatic effects in the battle for who retains the throne of the sacred empire. They were at one point one of our most faithful allies in the vote, but they had then voted for themselves and then Rajputana after King Mutik was unable to persuade them to join him. What is to be done? In addition to choosing a faction, please vote for one of the following options: A) Leave it alone and see how the situation develops. B) Send an Imperial envoy to negotiate a diplomatic solution. C) Prepare and send a military expedition.
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Jun 14, 2020 18:25
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B) Send an Imperial envoy to negotiate a diplomatic solution. Our present resources don't really seem to make military projection that for away viable, but as the true rulers of the empire (regardless of current circumstances), we can't abdicate our responsibilities and ignore it.
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Jun 14, 2020 18:53
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A) Leave it alone and see how the situation develops. These insurrectionists will burn themselves out or throw themselves on the pikes of some local lord - and even if they don't, we should keep as far away from this as we can until we're out of this little indelicate moment. It's not Lhasa's job to round up every pickpocket and slanderer in the empire.
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Jun 14, 2020 19:34
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Delhi now suffers for abandoning the rightful emperor in his hour of need! The gods, in their justice, have seen fit to topple this traitor and open the door to the restoration of legitimate Purgyal rule. Who are we to reject the gifts of the gods? The time will never be more right- we must restore the influence of Lhasa to the south, step by step. C-Restore order!
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Jun 14, 2020 19:38
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B Diplomacy The will of the peasants is to be seen to preserve peace and order in society.
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Jun 14, 2020 19:44
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A
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Jun 14, 2020 20:38
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A
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Jun 14, 2020 21:07
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B!
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Jun 14, 2020 21:08
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B.
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Jun 14, 2020 21:10
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A This is a local matter and you're all catastrophizing about how bad the broader effects could be. I'm sure that the current rulers in Sirmur know the area better than the rest of us and are perfectly capable of managing it in a way that is less frictional and most beneficial to us, not just me personally.
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Jun 14, 2020 21:14
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A
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Jun 14, 2020 21:57
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