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Thanks guys, really appreciate the info from vets of the game and genre. blackmongoose - I actually already backed 61/67 precisely because of the location. Interestingly I think most of my friends are more into actually running a train company properly rather than the robber baron style so we'll see how people like them. There are so many of these games that are OOP, what an interesting niche.
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May 28, 2020 15:46
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Mayveena posted:Excellent article by Tom Russell (Irish Gauge) on what's happening in the euro game side of the hobby Unfortunately Westphalia is a piece of poo poo game, as are the big Tom Russell designs because he doesn't really put in any effort.
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May 28, 2020 15:50
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Bottom Liner posted:Concordia isn't very representative of modern euro games at all to me. The interaction is subtle but definitely there. The game is all about piggybacking others actions to your benefit for production and income, which makes actions inherently interactive. The micro turns also feel against the grain of many modern euros that have more involved turns and round structures. Tom talks about entanglement, not only implicit interaction right? That's what I think is missing in Concordia and a lot of other games. Plus the actions in that game don't mean much individually, so the game drags on until finally all those little actions you took might mean something in the end. For me, it's a bad trend. Respecting your opinion of course.
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May 28, 2020 15:54
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This supports my "black tar heroin" theory of gaming. In this situation, getting 40 small turns doesn't matter as much to a long-term experienced gamer as 9 super turns. I can see some degree of what is meant, that a smaller turn is less meaningful if its effect can be undone or disadvantage mitigated before game end, thereby erasing much of the consequence of that turn. However, I would generally disagree there is a value beneath which it becomes meaningless, barring facile examples like, "Turn 1 I lost 1 point. Turn 9 I gained 150."
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May 28, 2020 16:12
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Mayveena posted:Tom talks about entanglement, not only implicit interaction right? That's what I think is missing in Concordia and a lot of other games. Plus the actions in that game don't mean much individually, so the game drags on until finally all those little actions you took might mean something in the end. For me, it's a bad trend. Respecting your opinion of course. That's my point, the micro actions of Concordia are pure entanglement because of the shared incentives of the regions. Even in 2p, most actions have direct ripple effects on the other player. I understand and agree with Tom's point, I just didn't think Concordia was representative of it or modern euros as a whole. I put it in a similar space as Hansa Teutonica. Simple short turns with a lot of ripple effects. Bottom Liner fucked around with this message at 16:45 on May 28, 2020 |
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May 28, 2020 16:38
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I find myself gravitating more toward the smaller turns now. Give me something that can play quickly and be easily explained over towering behemoths any day. Maybe I would flip position if I weren't the only person teaching and bookkeeping.
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May 28, 2020 16:44
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That article highlights most of my midweight euro ennui and just general dislike for trying out most new designs nowadays because they emphasize a multiplayer solitaire feel. It's hard to describe at times because I do very much enjoy games with subtle effects and lots of turns. Trajan, Gaia Project, Five Tribes, I enjoy all sorts of euros that I think have meaningful but subtle interaction. Arguably, 18xx fits in there since many of its effects require micro-turns of not doing much besides adjusting the market positions of running companies. Magnetic is kind of correct, except that in most euros you actually only have maybe 15 turns. So it's not like you have that many careful, subtle turns in a game like Go. And some of those "jumbo turns" games are actually Lacerdas that don't really have that much entanglement/interaction. And a lot of times the design is intentionally created so the positional heuristics get swept under until the big reveal of Final Bonus Points. This can be good and bad, of course. Mastery of a system implies mastery of the underlying positional heuristics. Mario Kart 2nd place is actually 1st place. But oftentimes it seems like, especially for Lacerdas, mastery of the system itself is the end goal. You can more quickly feel like you've mastered something if you know how it actually works instead of having to mastery 2nd order effects of simple rule systems - a puddle to an ocean. But that could be that after playing so many games, a lot of these new ones aren't so impressive when they're just tiny minor adjustments to already great rule systems so I'd always rather play the older classic that's held up. Not that it's impossible. FCM and TGZ only came out a few years ago and the recent reprints of classics like Steph's rocket and CONTAINER JUMBO and BrOaDtS are older designs that definitely feel fresh compared to Worker Placement With A Twist or Yet Another Resource Converter. JASE - Just another soulless euro - suddenly has meaning. Panzeh posted:Unfortunately Westphalia is a piece of poo poo game, as are the big Tom Russell designs because he doesn't really put in any effort. I'll still play it over new MWEs any day. Irish Gauge and Soo Line own, and I look forward to the reprint of his other older Winsome. And, despite the problems with it, I'll take stuff like For-Ex's need for a bit more development work over most euros now that have developed any potential sharp edges into rounded corners. quote:I find myself gravitating more toward the smaller turns now. Give me something that can play quickly and be easily explained over towering behemoths any day. Maybe I would flip position if I weren't the only person teaching and bookkeeping. Really think you'd enjoy TGZ. Chill la Chill fucked around with this message at 16:47 on May 28, 2020 |
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May 28, 2020 16:44
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Bottom Liner posted:That's my point, the micro actions of Concordia are pure entanglement because of the shared incentives of the regions. Even in 2p, most actions have direct ripple effects on the other player.
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May 28, 2020 16:45
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Any game where "cost" for an action is more important than "opportunity cost" for that action has sort of fundamentally missed the point of the term "interactive media."
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May 28, 2020 16:53
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Casnorf posted:Any game where "cost" for an action is more important than "opportunity cost" for that action has sort of fundamentally missed the point of the term "interactive media." ... "What?"
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May 28, 2020 17:55
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I recently got Inis and ran a first session of it with four players. Somewhat predictably everyone ganged up on whoever got closest to a victory condition, which more or less went on until someone had to leave. While I get that this outcome is flavorful and probably a result of inexperience, practically speaking I don't think the rest of the group is willing to play through completely unguided until we "get it", since there's other games to play. I still want to play the game to resolution at least once, do any of you who's played Inis have any pointers? I feel like there should be some way to reliably end the game within an hour.
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May 28, 2020 18:10
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Mr. Squishy posted:... "What?" Does the 5 wood it costs to move a macguffin matter more than the choice to move that macguffin over making it do other things. Like, if you have 5 wood, do you always move the macguffin, or are the circumstances presented by other players affecting your choice more? I find myself preferring low interaction games right now, so I don't strictly believe in the argument. It is nice to ponder.
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May 28, 2020 18:20
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Bendigeidfran posted:I recently got Inis and ran a first session of it with four players. Somewhat predictably everyone ganged up on whoever got closest to a victory condition, which more or less went on until someone had to leave. While I get that this outcome is flavorful and probably a result of inexperience, practically speaking I don't think the rest of the group is willing to play through completely unguided until we "get it", since there's other games to play. Best house rule there is (that was made official in the expansion with a slight change): If at the end of a round people have fulfilled wincons and pretender tokens but the game doesn't end because of tie, all tied players gain a deed. It's not really that hard for players to get their first wincon, the game has several built-in clocks already, if the game stretches for hours it's probably because of ties.
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May 28, 2020 18:22
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Bendigeidfran posted:I recently got Inis and ran a first session of it with four players. Somewhat predictably everyone ganged up on whoever got closest to a victory condition, which more or less went on until someone had to leave. While I get that this outcome is flavorful and probably a result of inexperience, practically speaking I don't think the rest of the group is willing to play through completely unguided until we "get it", since there's other games to play. With Inis, I think many new players undervalue the deed tokens. Since they can be used as wild points towards any three of the victory conditions, it can allow someone to satisfy a victory condition unexpectedly or just plain make it harder to keep them from getting at least one. If you and your players were ignoring the deed tokens, then that definitely would have contributed to lengthening the game. The expansion for Inis does have a module for tiebreaking, but it only goes into effect once players who aren't the Brenn tie for victory. You could easily look it up and implement it, if you're worried about another hurdle getting in the way of ending the game.
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May 28, 2020 18:28
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Shadow225 posted:I find myself preferring low interaction games right now, so I don't strictly believe in the argument. It is nice to ponder. Zero-player-interaction games aren't really that different from puzzles. Speed running puzzles is great, optimization is fine and dandy, but if the other players don't really matter much then why bother with the pretense? That is: if you want your multiplayer interactive media to be interactive but then obviate the role of anyone else in it, why have anyone else at all? (this is absolutely not to say that low-interaction games aren't fun or your cup of tea. only to ask what it is you want out of the experience.)
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May 28, 2020 22:28
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Plenty of optional entanglement in Concordia. Just leech off other players' provinces and profit from their prefecting.
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May 28, 2020 22:32
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Casnorf posted:Zero-player-interaction games aren't really that different from puzzles. Speed running puzzles is great, optimization is fine and dandy, but if the other players don't really matter much then why bother with the pretense? I'm okay with vraible slower placed puzzles I think, so long as the puzzle entertains me. There is a certain quality to appreciate about doing puzzles with other people to compare. Most of the time I would rather play a video game if I am doing something solo, but there are things that get lost in the transition to that medium. I think that more than anything, I am looking for something where I don't have to play spoiler or hold someone else down. I'm okay with doing my part, but if I am the only person doing it, then I get tired. I think that having my primary gaming experience over the last few months being a few play test games of Oath, a few games of Caylus 1303, Chicago Express, and Stephenson Rocket without anything more gentle really just burned me out for a bit. Need some lower stress gaming for a bit.
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May 28, 2020 23:13
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Thanks for the pointers, I think I'll emphasize how good Deeds are and adopt that house-rule for our next go-around.
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May 28, 2020 23:24
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Yeah definitely use the expansion win conditions to stop stales. It drastically reduces play time for new players and old alike.
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May 28, 2020 23:29
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Casnorf posted:Zero-player-interaction games aren't really that different from puzzles. Speed running puzzles is great, optimization is fine and dandy, but if the other players don't really matter much then why bother with the pretense? i dont think i could convince my friends to come over and hang out while we all did our own jigsaw puzzles on the table
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May 28, 2020 23:58
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make it a race and have some drinks and snacks and that sounds like a good time
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May 29, 2020 00:02
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Bottom Liner posted:make [the jigsaw puzzles] a race and have some drinks and snacks and that sounds like a good time This might be the most Bottom Liner post I've ever seen and I am so happy to have seen it.
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May 29, 2020 00:10
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Countblanc posted:i dont think i could convince my friends to come over and hang out while we all did our own jigsaw puzzles on the table You have greatly underestimated the appeal of Railroad Ink
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May 29, 2020 01:18
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Casnorf posted:This might be the most Bottom Liner post I've ever seen and I am so happy to have seen it. haha well I'm glad to have made it but not sure it's representative of my general tastes? My collection and favorite games are like 90% cutthroat and "mean".
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May 29, 2020 01:26
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Bottom Liner posted:make it a race and have some drinks and snacks and that sounds like a good time This very closely resembles an extremely dumb party activity I was exposed to many years ago, dubbed "the all-American challenge." Basically you divide into teams and consume a specified quantity of pizza, beer, and marijuana, while also completing a jigsaw puzzle. And it's a race. I did NOT consider it A Good Time, but in fairness I was the team-member who was bad at puzzles and thus had to make up the difference in the other categories.
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May 29, 2020 02:04
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Bottom Liner posted:haha well I'm glad to have made it but not sure it's representative of my general tastes? My collection and favorite games are like 90% cutthroat and "mean". Oh yeah it wasn't a judgement of your tastes. I always come across so judgey, dangit, when I read my own posts a few hours or days later. It was more like that phrase kind of distills my impression of the essence of your posting so succinctly I couldn't picture anything that could possibly be more so. Change or take away any portion and it would be less you. I basically always am trying to think about games-as-media and how to approach and refine my own execution, so I'm nearly always trying to start or contribute to a conversation. I'm coming to the realization that it doesn't always come across that way at all, so, uh, sorry about that.
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May 29, 2020 02:41
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Oh no offense taken, no worries.
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May 29, 2020 03:15
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bobvonunheil posted:You have greatly underestimated the appeal of Railroad Ink I've been trying to hunt down the Blue version here in Australia, but Red seems to be the only thing in stock. I don't want volcanoes I want lakes! Though I could retheme it to be bushfires instead 
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May 29, 2020 03:33
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My FLGS (Game Empire in Pasadena) is closing permanently. 
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May 29, 2020 06:15
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VoodooXT posted:My FLGS (Game Empire in Pasadena) is closing permanently. Aww man, that’s a bummer! Because of the pandemic, or financials? Or some other reason. I looked on the website and didn’t see any announcement of closure.
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May 29, 2020 06:27
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Hackjack posted:Aww man, that’s a bummer! Because of the pandemic, or financials? Or some other reason. They announced it on their Facebook page. They closed because Chuck the original owner passed away some months ago and now the pandemic caused them to go out of business since they couldn't do curbside pickup.
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May 29, 2020 06:51
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Infinitum posted:I've been trying to hunt down the Blue version here in Australia, but Red seems to be the only thing in stock. The blue version has always been impossible to get for pretty much that exact reason. Your best option right now is probably to get it as an add-on in the Railroad Ink Challenge Kickstarter.
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May 29, 2020 10:03
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pBXSGZtS5E&t=8s I'd love to play in a full 18 player game of Western Empires plus Eastern Empires at some point. Does anyone on here have war stories from playing Advanced Civilization/Mega Civilization?
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May 29, 2020 10:36
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NRVNQSR posted:The blue version has always been impossible to get for pretty much that exact reason. Your best option right now is probably to get it as an add-on in the Railroad Ink Challenge Kickstarter. I have backed so many board game Kickstarters this month  Think I'm tapping out with War of Whispers + Tiny Epic Pirates for the moment. Railroad Ink Challenge does look pretttttty good tho. VoodooXT posted:They announced it on their Facebook page. They closed because Chuck the original owner passed away some months ago and now the pandemic caused them to go out of business since they couldn't do curbside pickup. Understandable, but it sucks they couldn't shift to full online sales temporarily like a few stores have been doing down here in Aus. My 'local' FLGS is an hours drive away, cause Sydney is loving starved for actual game stores, so it's good to be able to support them online. They're doing a EOFY sale atm, and all the good poo poo I wanted at a discount sold out pretty much instantly. Fuckers. Lemme just buy Tournament at Avalon or Istanbul  NoNotTheMindProbe posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pBXSGZtS5E&t=8s That game looks insaaaaaane, but I'd def be down for it if it was held at a pub somewhere so I could dip out if I lost a few hours in. Like what Quinns said about the actual gaming table as well. I'd love to have one, but I don't see myself ever being able to afford one as a luxury item outside of winning the lottery. Would def add one to my Bridal Gift Registry if I ever got married  "No no, it doubles as a dining table!"
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May 29, 2020 11:41
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NoNotTheMindProbe posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pBXSGZtS5E&t=8s I mean I'll just note that my birthday parties as a kid were incredible. My three best friends and I did the following every year for many years: Dinner, arcade, home. I ran one scenario of Heroquest. We started a 4p game of advanced civ. Sleepover in sleeping bags. Woke up, finished the game. We got very familiar with the 4p side of the map, I gotta tell you. Sometimes my dad would join for 5p. One year my cat decided to jump on the table while we slept and uhhh Egypt had a really weird calamity hit them.
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May 29, 2020 11:52
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silvergoose posted:and uhhh Egypt had a really weird calamity hit them. There’s some solid precedent for that.
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May 29, 2020 11:58
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Thirteen Orphans posted:There’s some solid precedent for that. Giant cats is not one of the known ones though. Also good username, love me some mahjong.
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May 29, 2020 11:59
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silvergoose posted:
How does Hero Quest hold up as a game for like.. adults? Cause I owned that + Space Hulk as a kid and I remember them ruling from a ~pure imagination~ perspective. Bums me out that I've lost both copies somewhere along the line, cause they'd be lovely talking pieces these days 
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May 29, 2020 12:02
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Infinitum posted:How does Hero Quest hold up as a game for like.. adults? Cause I owned that + Space Hulk as a kid and I remember them ruling from a ~pure imagination~ perspective. My suspicion is not; the movement is pretty stodgy, the dice rolling is old school, the progression is slow. But by God I miss those chaos femirs and waiting for my players to walk down that hallway and trigger a falling rock trap and getting separated.
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May 29, 2020 12:07
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silvergoose posted:Also good username, love me some mahjong. Thanks! Riichi is my preferred rule set, but my brother is Chinese and refuses to play “a Japanese distortion” of mahjong.
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May 29, 2020 12:07
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