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Jose posted:The only time may offered a genuinely soft brexit it was change UK and the lib Dems who killed it ronya the revising history is only too predictable, but the particular choice of "LIBERALS stopped SOFT BREXIT" narrative is p damned weird, I tell you
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May 31, 2020 13:29
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Corbyn could never fail, only be failed. Everything he did even when it seemed misguided at the time was 12 dimensional chess proving he was a tactical genius, even when evidence seemed to suggest otherwise.
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May 31, 2020 13:34
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ronya posted:the revising history is only too predictable, but the particular choice of "LIBERALS stopped SOFT BREXIT" narrative is p damned weird, I tell you theres nothing revisionist about it although the SNP were more to blame. lol this wasn't even offered by may. ronya please tell me when may offered a genuine soft brexit? https://ig.ft.com/brexit-second-round-indicative-votes/ Jose fucked around with this message at 13:39 on May 31, 2020 |
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May 31, 2020 13:35
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Pesmerga posted:Corbyn could never fail, only be failed. Everything he did even when it seemed misguided at the time was 12 dimensional chess proving he was a tactical genius, even when evidence seemed to suggest otherwise. thats absolutely what is being argued. gently caress off
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May 31, 2020 13:37
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ronya posted:Labour does not want to be 'the lockdown party', anyway; it wants to be the 'scientific advice'/'people's safety' party I honestly don't think they do, not in any way that matters That might be the vibe that they'd like to go for because it suits their big brained rational centrist self image, but they are doing a shocking job of saying the things you might expect from someone who wants to follow scientific advice and keep people safe, e.g. "Well these scientists are advising that lifting the lockdown right now is probably not safe, so maybe we should think about not doing that?" or backing the teachers unions when they're concerned about the safety of reopening schools like they came up with a bunch of tests for when it's safe to reopen which haven't been met, and they can't even bring themselves to say out loud the only possible logical conclusion, that it's not yet safe to reopen?
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May 31, 2020 13:39
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Pesmerga posted:Corbyn could never fail, only be failed. Everything he did even when it seemed misguided at the time was 12 dimensional chess proving he was a tactical genius, even when evidence seemed to suggest otherwise. Please try to be both more wrong & more smug. I'm not sure you can do it but if anyone can it'll be you.
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May 31, 2020 13:40
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Jose posted:thats absolutely what is being argued. gently caress off It's what was consistently argued at the time. In the first several months, the justifications were that he needed time to get used to the role, and towards the end, that he was strategising the Tories into a corner. The election was just waiting to be won, after all, and Labour was just the government in waiting.
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May 31, 2020 13:41
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Pesmerga posted:It's what was consistently argued at the time. In the first several months, the justifications were that he needed time to get used to the role, and towards the end, that he was strategising the Tories into a corner. The election was just waiting to be won, after all, and Labour was just the government in waiting. and it would have been had people inside the party not sabotaged him?
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May 31, 2020 13:41
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Ah cool are we doing cult of Corbyn poo poo again.
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May 31, 2020 13:42
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Jose posted:and it would have been had people inside the party not sabotaged him? That was a pronouncement made after the 2017 election, not before, and was even louder in 2019, despite the reports that Labour was hemorrhaging support.
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May 31, 2020 13:42
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Pesmerga posted:That was a pronouncement made after the 2017 election, not before, and was even louder in 2019, despite the reports that Labour was hemorrhaging support. hmm yes and what was the policy that caused the loss of support and who is now leader of the party?
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May 31, 2020 13:43
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Jose posted:hmm yes and what was the policy that caused the loss of support and who is now leader of the party? A combination fo Corbyn's unpopularity, an unconvincing manifesto, election strategy and Brexit policy. The claim that it was all because of Brexit is not true.
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May 31, 2020 13:46
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Julio Cruz posted:I do enjoy when someone I've had on ignore for ages proves why that was a good choice
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May 31, 2020 13:47
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https://twitter.com/EmilyGorcenski/status/1266976915698716673 This is what Donald Trump would have turned into if he hadn't been born into money. Just a golem made up of mis-spelled social media posts, and there are loving millions of them out there. Click through for some of his FB posts which are both exactly what you'd expect and somehow far worse.
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May 31, 2020 13:50
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Convicted felon. That explains the bow and arrow.
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May 31, 2020 14:01
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Jippa posted:https://elemental.medium.com/corona...--------------- This was really interesting, thanks. Pinch of salt because Medium article / speculation based on the results of one study, but it sounds really plausible given what jabby and others have been reporting.
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May 31, 2020 14:02
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Pesmerga posted:Corbyn could never fail, only be failed. Everything he did even when it seemed misguided at the time was 12 dimensional chess proving he was a tactical genius, even when evidence seemed to suggest otherwise. Did you just not notice how the media acted towards him for 3 years? Did you miss a general openly telling everyone they’d coup him? Was the man who had a years long anti-semitism smear against him sabotaged? Yes.
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May 31, 2020 14:02
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So he went Rambo like that knowing he was on unemployment with no health insurance and with $1000 worth of stuff in his car. I think you could have done something better with your day, Brandon McCormick From what he says there it sounds like he had a fantasy about doing something heroic to help the police but really had put very little thought into... anything crispix fucked around with this message at 14:11 on May 31, 2020 |
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May 31, 2020 14:07
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Huh, I only just noticed that I was given a 20k Chilean Pesos note the other day from the shop, rather than a tenner. On the downside, that's really annoying since I can't easily spend it. On the plus side, it's worth around £20 if I can be bothered to get it changed.
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May 31, 2020 14:18
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XMNN posted:I honestly don't think they do, not in any way that matters the non-committal "we support doing X if the expert says X is a good idea" + "in a separate story, expert says that X is not a good idea" is one formula to avoid getting X stuck to your banner, yes... these experts are a fickle lot, after all... e.g., one of the things they like to do is break from their committee statements and issue private statements to the press in their personal capacities (for example...). Hitching one's cart to their horse too tightly can be treacherous. Ask McDonnell about his Economic Advisory Committee sometime. my sense is that LAB and CON see in the private polling tea-leaves that people (the people that matter, that is - median communities) are getting antsy about lockdown lasting much longer, or at least expect that voters will retrospectively remember lockdown much more negatively than they do now at risk of violating the everyone-is-a-neoliberal archetype (sorry forkboy), Corbyn would probably have played the "we support doing X if the teacher's union backs X" card instead of the "we support doing X if parents back X" card that Labour is playing right now. One's choice of authorities reflects one's politics there (since there is a choice of authorities to be had)
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May 31, 2020 14:21
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crispix posted:So he went Rambo like that knowing he was on unemployment with no health insurance and with $1000 worth of stuff in his car. I think you could have done something better with your day, Brandon McCormick https://twitter.com/EmilyGorcenski/status/1266980555935174658
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May 31, 2020 14:28
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so you're just going to ignore me lol
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May 31, 2020 14:29
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Jose posted:theres nothing revisionist about it although the SNP were more to blame. lol this wasn't even offered by may. ronya please tell me when may offered a genuine soft brexit? The CON-LAB talks over the withdrawal bill were in April 2019, after the second wave of indicative votes failed in early April. For the record I don't think these talks were ever in good faith; both sides were just there to try to pin failure on the other (or avoid having failure pinned by failing to show up) Indicative votes were, as you point out, not offers by May All this was before the European elections in late May which finally began to turn the Labour ship; a simple point re: the indicative votes and the pattern of Labour rebellions against the whip is that this was the period where Corbyn was conspicuously punishing backbenchers who defied brexit-opposing whips but not punishing frontbenchers who defied brexit-leaning whips, including Lavery and Trickett during those indicative votes themselves. Shockingly, it turns out to be very easy for the opposition to keep losing these votes even with a heap of government rebels worth appreciating, again, that this was not obviously a bad strategy if one assumed that all those ominous promises of a voter rebellion over failing to oppose Brexit sufficiently were just exaggerations and lies that wouldn't come true (an assumption that would have been true for the preceding three years). Hell, keeping it a live issue forced the Prime Minister to resign. What's not to love. Wind back to early 2019 and the Labour left is large, in charge (of the party), and absolutely confident that this bed the Tories have made for themselves will strangle them in the next general election (which Labour will trigger and win) ronya fucked around with this message at 14:55 on May 31, 2020 |
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May 31, 2020 14:49
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Jose posted:so you're just going to ignore me lol people complain about my deficient copy editing quite a bit already, come on
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May 31, 2020 14:53
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Regarde Aduck posted:Did you just not notice how the media acted towards him for 3 years? Did you miss a general openly telling everyone they’d coup him? Was the man who had a years long anti-semitism smear against him sabotaged? Yes. Ah but you see Corbyn failed in the end so everything they put out about him was retroactively true and even if it wasn't it was justified because he did so badly. Why yes I do love the smell of my own farts.
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May 31, 2020 15:07
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Just remember Andy "Miliband 3.0" Burnham Yvette "Tories are too soft" Cooper Liz "computer" Kendall Owen "who?" Smith These were the other people who might have been Labour leader for the last 5 years. They would either have gone hard remain, and lost, or sat on the fence, and lost, and would have spent half their time adding more Kryptonite-brand "Fahgettaboudit" locks to the Overton window.
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May 31, 2020 15:17
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If corbyn did any lasting good it's that I think there's a much bigger contingent of people out there who expect a lot better than starmer's gonna offer, and I'd rather have them than not. I'd take a dozen more like him because I'd rather lose and spread those ideas than lose and do literally nothing worth doing. Or win and do the same. Least with the former you've got a chance for the future.
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May 31, 2020 15:28
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Bobstar posted:Just remember Any of these four would have found sharing a stage with David Cameron in a Remain campaign tolerable... if Corbyn can stomach Hezbollah his refusal to work with Cameron on moral grounds was always playing to the peanut gallery. Corbyn's team's actual reasons had stemmed from the lessons it drew from the Scottish referendum, which is that these Tory/SNP gambits are traps intended mainly to punish Labour's inherent weaknesses. The part which was not obvious at the time (hell, it still wasn't obvious by early 2019) was whether the alternative of making the grenade explode whilst it's still being held by a gleefully smug Tory would actually benefit Labour. Note that Cameron likewise could have made cohabitation might more attractive to Corbyn - caution would have recommended it - and he didn't. The polling suggested he didn't need to. Best laid plans and all that. Isn't gambling with the future of the entire country such harmless fun Labour's soft left would also have offered May cover to just postpone invoking Article 50 forever, I think, and then eat lumps for it in the press (even though in our actual timeline, if Corbyn had done such a thing, they would write editorials on how Corbyn doesn't understand working class people). The loss of heartlands constituencies would just have happened sooner. Whether Labour would be in a better position thereafter (compared to now - or well, maybe compared to mid-2019; take your pick), who knows, though. Too different. These leaders would have responded differently to Syria, to Skripal, to the Manchester arena bombing too.
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May 31, 2020 15:37
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OwlFancier posted:If corbyn did any lasting good it's that I think there's a much bigger contingent of people out there who expect a lot better than starmer's gonna offer, and I'd rather have them than not. I found a paper you might find entertaining https://twitter.com/RichardHanania/status/1260051239607218176 https://twitter.com/RichardHanania/status/1260051247463231489 https://twitter.com/RichardHanania/status/1260051249002459137
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May 31, 2020 15:45
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I hadn't hitherto felt the need for a paper to justify my position that you can win elections pandering to the right but all you've done in that case is elected a right wing government, and I'm sort of surprised that anyone would feel the need to write a paper about such a blindingly obvious fact, but there you go. I guess sociologists have to keep busy. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 15:56 on May 31, 2020 |
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May 31, 2020 15:48
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I knew you'd like it. (There is a wee bit of tension between "actually people are tired of Brexit and are ready to vote for my boldly socialist rhetoric" and "actually I'm proudly going down with this ship". There's also a converse question of why David Cameron has to hug a hoodie but Boris Johnson does not)
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May 31, 2020 15:58
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Instead of fighting amongst yourselves, rejoice here as the London Economic eviscerates the Tories. https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/opinion/imagine-if-jeremy-corbyn-was-in-charge/05/05/
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May 31, 2020 16:09
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ronya posted:I found a paper you might find entertaining ronya posted:There's also a converse question of why David Cameron has to hug a hoodie but Boris Johnson does not.  Also Brown and New Labour and the press spending years demonizing council estate children as literal untermenschen meant that Cameron could handily appear to run to the left of them at very little effort.
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May 31, 2020 16:25
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Lmao if you think sharing a stage with pigfucker would have won it for remain
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May 31, 2020 16:35
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https://twitter.com/matthancock/status/1266995931439943683?s=21 lol, it's wanton slaughter now.
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May 31, 2020 16:52
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Guavanaut posted:The opposite view to that would be Touré Reed, who argues that if race reductionism loses elections, it would be better to focus on the ground of economics, because economic policy that redistributes wealth also disproportionately helps BAME people, whereas policy that is antiracist in words but liberal in politics and economics usually does not achieve good results (see Obama, B. H.). it's fun to compare the war of words between Reed (older/younger) and Coates (and their respective supporters/detractors) to the old war amongst academic feminists why women persistently voted Tory until 1997 (or, conversely, exactly what triggered the shift)
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May 31, 2020 16:53
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Darth Walrus posted:https://twitter.com/matthancock/status/1266995931439943683?s=21 this feels like one of those lo-fi horror videos from Local58 or whatever where a news feed builds up a bit with 'theres something wrong with the moon omg dONT GO OUTSIDE AAAA....' and then a sudden transmission cut to 'there is nothing wrong, please leave your homes and go outside. fear not citizen, all is well.'
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May 31, 2020 16:57
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ronya posted:the non-committal "we support doing X if the expert says X is a good idea" + "in a separate story, expert says that X is not a good idea" is one formula to avoid getting X stuck to your banner, yes... if you're "following the science" it's not actually a problem if the scientific advice changes because you just change your policy in response to it. it's only a problem if you're actually just using science as a cover for doing what you wanted to do anyway, because when the scientific advice changes suddenly you're no longer following it (see: the government). like, "is it too risky to open more things up on Monday?" isn't a particularly long-term question; the scientists deciding in a few weeks that it is now safe enough to open up doesn't even require you to change your position on it also, scientists deciding to go to the media to say they're concerned about your plans is probably less likely if you're actually following their advice with regards to being concerned for people's safety, the schools are a very good example of how they're not, because it's not like parents are particularly worthwhile authorities on what's safe, whereas at least unions are generally looking out for the safety of their members maybe we're using different definitions of "be the 'scientific advice'/'people's safety' party" (i.e. be perceived as being concerned with those things vs actually being concerned with those things)? Although the way they're handling it suggests to me that they're not actually particularly bothered about either, or if they are then they're not competent enough to choose the right policy (if their concern is genuine)/make a convincing job of pretending they care about science and safety (if their concern is the perception) it seems to me like they're more concerned about playing politics than they are about actual constructive criticism (how ironic!) because they don't want to say things that they know are true if they might be unpopular or awkward for them later. If you were actually genuinely concerned about doing the right thing you would not give a flying gently caress about private polling tea leaves in median communities suggesting that they weren't keen on it, you would stand by your important principles, e.g. that killing tens of thousands of people through criminal negligence is a bad thing to do e: like what the gently caress is the point of drawing up a big checklist of things that are necessary for safely easing the lockdown and then refusing to say "well none of these things are in place so it's not currently safe to ease the lockdown"? It shows that you don't actually care about those things enough to actually back them all the way and it makes you look like a Muppet in the process. When this is over and 100,000+ people are dead because of Johnson's decisions, you can't even say "well, we told you that you were loving up but you didn't listen" if you don't actually say that they were loving up. Opting for the Brexit plan of going "well we know the government are about to gently caress this up big time but they say they aren't so we'll let them fail against their own measures for success and then they'll look like right idiots" and giving a knowing wink to the crowd is p despicable in this context, and no more likely to work XMNN fucked around with this message at 17:06 on May 31, 2020 |
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May 31, 2020 16:58
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Jose posted:Lmao if you think sharing a stage with pigfucker would have won it for remain If anything it would have solidified the 'they're all the same' argument (arguably correctly) and let Farage get more of a foothold.
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May 31, 2020 17:01
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thespaceinvader posted:If anything it would have solidified the 'they're all the same' argument (arguably correctly) and let Farage get more of a foothold. yeah the fact is remain lost the referendum as soon as the question was remain vs leave
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May 31, 2020 17:01
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