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Reading about how much people drank what really blows my mind is how they stayed functional. Where were the DTs at Valley Forge? Were they literally staving off the shakes from waking up onwards every day until they keeled over?
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May 31, 2020 17:17
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You tend to build up a massive tolerance before adulthood in a world where the only thing safe to drink is anything with alcohol in it.
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May 31, 2020 20:22
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Reading about how much people drank what really blows my mind is how they stayed functional. Where were the DTs at Valley Forge? Were they literally staving off the shakes from waking up onwards every day until they keeled over? Until they started producing hard liquor in industrial quantities it wasn't a problem. There's a reason gin is called "mother's ruin" while beer/wine is not.
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May 31, 2020 21:03
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Der Kyhe posted:You tend to build up a massive tolerance before adulthood in a world where the only thing safe to drink is anything with alcohol in it. this is a myth
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May 31, 2020 21:34
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WITCHCRAFT posted:That was not something I expected from this thread at all, I usually assume this thread is going to be about 500+ year old events and persons. Maybe someone from from 3000BC with a quip or hot take that is straight out of modern social media. My favorite of these is the last conversation between Enkidu and Shamhat in the epic of Gilgamesh. Enkidu is the typical "wild man" and he runs around with the animals and terrifies all the farmers and hunters. Gilgamesh decides that this guy sounds pretty cool and needs to be "civilized" so he sends Shamhat to do that. They have sex for 12 days and 14 nights, as was the style at the time, and at the end, Enkidu decides that this civilization business sounds worth checking out. They become best bros and go on epic quests and end up pissing off the wrong god, who decides that Enkidu must die as retribution. Enkidu, obviously distraught upon learning that he's going to die and having second thoughts about being a civilized man, calls up Shamhat and curses her to a life of eternal misery for having brought this fate upon him. She retorts that all she's ever done to him was have mindblowing sex and invite him to live in the world's grandest palace with all the creature comforts anyone could ask. He sees her points, apologizes, and rescinds his curse and instead calls for her to live a blessed life of happiness. Maybe not modern social media levels of progressive, but it was a take I was surprised to see in a work that old.
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May 31, 2020 21:44
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Der Kyhe posted:You tend to build up a massive tolerance before adulthood in a world where the only thing safe to drink is anything with alcohol in it. This is a common myth. While cities sometimes had issues with safe drinking water, it wasn't exactly the norm. Medieval London even had a massive, very expensive project to pump fresh water from the countryside into the city. People knew how to identify bad water, knew that dumping trash and poo poo upstream from your drinking water was bad, and even had filtration methods and knew that boiling water could purify it (even if it wasn't done consistently and people were always sloppy). Most of the alcohol average people drank up until the proliferation of distilled liquor was low in alcohol, such as small beer (around 2-3% ABV or even lower) or watered down wine (as high as 4:1 water to wine for normal Roman drinking). Even when rum and whiskey became cheap in colonial America, people were usually drinking enough to maintain a low buzz throughout the day but not enough to be hammered at all times. The temperance movement that evolved into Prohibition originated seriously in the 19th century when cheap and easily available liquor started causing severe problems with alcoholism.
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May 31, 2020 22:05
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chitoryu12 posted:This is a common myth. While cities sometimes had issues with safe drinking water, it wasn't exactly the norm. Medieval London even had a massive, very expensive project to pump fresh water from the countryside into the city. People knew how to identify bad water, knew that dumping trash and poo poo upstream from your drinking water was bad, and even had filtration methods and knew that boiling water could purify it (even if it wasn't done consistently and people were always sloppy). I sometimes wonder whether this myth has its origins in the John Snow cholera story - he did identify that workers at a brewery next to Broad Street had remarkably low incidence of cholera, and he did use that as supporting evidence for the waterborne theory over the miasma theory, speculating that they were drinking a ton of small beer instead of water. Somehow that gets folded into the general concept of Old Cities despite the fact that Snow did his thing in 1854. That idea of olde tyme cities as knee-deep in filth doesn't really start to become true anyway until urban populations began to skyrocket and sanitation/access to clean water becomes a massive problem, exacerbated by the growth of both industry and slums and insufficient large scale public works to meet demand. A mediaeval city probably had more faeces out and about than we're generally used to, but they were far from the popular image of dung-caked cholera-laden shitholes that would make the beer thing reasonable (Georgian London, now...but they also had gin.) Related, miasma theory is a very very old idea with lots of convergent versions that neatly lends itself to encouraging good public sanitation and private hygiene, and is honestly incredibly reasonable if you don't know about micro-organisms. I've always had a soft spot for it, it did a decent job for a very long time.
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May 31, 2020 23:24
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Right. Weren't plague doctor outfits basically the closest they could get to hazmat suits with the technology of the time?
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May 31, 2020 23:29
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PMush Perfect posted:Right. Weren't plague doctor outfits basically the closest they could get to hazmat suits with the technology of the time? in the sense that they still thought disease was caused by bad smells so the beak is just full of potpourri
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May 31, 2020 23:33
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The potpourri mainly seems like it'd make you much more likely to immediately vomit into your mask as soon as you contacted a bad smell, like say, a house full of dead or dying plague victims. e: also, the booze thing: it's no much the concentration that concerns me, it's beer and wine can't save you from alcoholism. Like I had about a year of hard drinking right after I moved back to the states where I'd drink beer and wine "reasonably" anywhere between 2 and 7 days in a row and then convalesce and repeat and I was absolutely not about to scribe a racist constitution- the relatively mild withdrawals were enough to floor me and even get my then-partner to check me into the ICU. There was a really humiliating day where my hands were shaking so bad I couldn't write, at all. There were times I sweat so bad I was embarrassed to go out in public. If everyone was drinking so desperately their entire lives then how were they never remembered for the days when they were completely out of it from withdrawals or when they had DTs after their years of constant use? or is this maybe one of the reasons why so many people drop of "natural" causes in their 50s and 60s Edgar Allen Ho has a new favorite as of 23:54 on May 31, 2020 |
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May 31, 2020 23:35
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Reading about how much people drank what really blows my mind is how they stayed functional. Where were the DTs at Valley Forge? Were they literally staving off the shakes from waking up onwards every day until they keeled over? There's a book (something like "lies my teacher told me"?) that talks about alcohol consumption in industrial, but pre-prohibition times. The workforce was regularly depleted by drunkenness and one factory had to close for a few days as all the line workers called in hungover.
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May 31, 2020 23:35
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Alaois posted:in the sense that they still thought disease was caused by bad smells so the beak is just full of potpourri
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May 31, 2020 23:40
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PMush Perfect posted:I mean more about the suit and the gloves. It's a shame the plague doctor getup doesn't work because yeah, it's not a bad idea if you don't know about microbes and you think bad smells cause disease, and it is a similar principle to hazmat (create a barrier between yourself and the invisible Bad Thing). Unfortunately it wasn't one of those times where the "wrong" solution happens to also be the right solution, unlike urban sanitation. Whether or not you could have made an effective set of hazmat gear with 17th century technology if you did know about microbes, I've got no idea. Very stylish way to get the plague though.
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Jun 1, 2020 00:14
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My favourite “wrong solution is right solution” situation is quinine. The Indians used cinchona bark to treat shivering, malaria causes shivery, ergo we should give cinchona bark to malaria patients. In a complete coincidence, it turns out that quinine is toxic to the parasites that cause malaria. So it cures malaria, but not because it stopped the shivering.
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Jun 1, 2020 00:25
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small ghost posted:It's a shame the plague doctor getup doesn't work because yeah, it's not a bad idea if you don't know about microbes and you think bad smells cause disease, and it is a similar principle to hazmat (create a barrier between yourself and the invisible Bad Thing). Unfortunately it wasn't one of those times where the "wrong" solution happens to also be the right solution, unlike urban sanitation. Whether or not you could have made an effective set of hazmat gear with 17th century technology if you did know about microbes, I've got no idea. Very stylish way to get the plague though. The plague is spread by flea bites, so if you cover yourself more or less hermetically with heavy cloth, flea dont bite.
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Jun 1, 2020 00:38
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Tashilicious posted:The plague is spread by flea bites, so if you cover yourself more or less hermetically with heavy cloth, flea dont bite. Fleas are pretty fantastic at getting inside clothes but I guess if you used leather and wool and gloves, and tucked everything in at the neck, wrists and ankles, you could probably have a horribly sweaty but flea free time. You can also pretty easily contract plague from the bodily fluids of plague victims though, so I guess you've probably got to burn it and make a new one every time. Edit: wait I forgot about pneumonic plague, which is direct human to human droplet transmission and also the deadliest one. Gotta make the patient wear the bird mask too. small ghost has a new favorite as of 01:11 on Jun 1, 2020 |
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Jun 1, 2020 01:07
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_doctor_costume leather or waxed fabric, with gloves, boots and a cane to avoid touching the patient if possible. it's not perfect but without plastic and an understanding of the germ theory of disease it's about as good as it gets.
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Jun 1, 2020 03:47
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thatbastardken posted:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_doctor_costume If you impregnate the costume with oil and then set it on fire, the fleas will burn before getting to you! 
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Jun 1, 2020 03:58
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and that's why Suomi never had the plague. idiots.
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Jun 1, 2020 04:57
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chitoryu12 posted:People knew how to identify bad water, knew that dumping trash and poo poo upstream from your drinking water was bad The Mongol khans even declared peeing into bodies of water a capital offence. I'm not entirely sure why peeing into ashes of a fire could also get you killed, though I imagine urinaiting on hot embers stinks pretty bad.
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Jun 1, 2020 06:47
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The flipside of that is that biological warfare has been a thing pretty much forever - dumping a corpse in the well is a perennial favourite, as is dipping your arrows in poo poo. Hoiking plague corpses over your enemy's walls with a catapult was also very popular in the middle ages.
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Jun 1, 2020 07:08
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small ghost posted:The flipside of that is that biological warfare has been a thing pretty much forever - dumping a corpse in the well is a perennial favourite, as is dipping your arrows in poo poo. Before they perfected the technique, it was a real pain in the rear end.
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Jun 1, 2020 07:22
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3D Megadoodoo posted:Before they perfected the technique, it was a real pain in the rear end. Very good.
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Jun 1, 2020 07:28
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I was reading a report from a British doctor who served with the Turkish Army in the Crimean War on the standards of hygiene in the various armies. It was well-established by that point how to have clean water, despite still believing in the miasma theory of disease, and he was dismayed that all of the issues came from undisciplined soldiers who would go to the head of a spring rather than downriver to wash their dirty clothes and dishes, or hastily dig a grave right where the nearest water site to the camp was. A similar report from an American in 1919 talked about how undisciplined soldiers tend to run off to pee at the edge of camp as soon as they finish their initial tasks to set up, and they would inevitably pick the exact spot where the nearest potable water was.
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Jun 1, 2020 13:46
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Jasper Tin Neck posted:The Mongol khans even declared peeing into bodies of water a capital offence. iirc even stepping on a threshold was a capital offense perhaps they just liked killing people
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Jun 1, 2020 15:31
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small ghost posted:The flipside of that is that biological warfare has been a thing pretty much forever - dumping a corpse in the well is a perennial favourite, as is dipping your arrows in poo poo. 3D Megadoodoo posted:Before they perfected the technique, it was a real pain in the rear end.
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Jun 1, 2020 15:32
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chitoryu12 posted:I was reading a report from a British doctor who served with the Turkish Army in the Crimean War on the standards of hygiene in the various armies. It was well-established by that point how to have clean water, despite still believing in the miasma theory of disease, and he was dismayed that all of the issues came from undisciplined soldiers who would go to the head of a spring rather than downriver to wash their dirty clothes and dishes, or hastily dig a grave right where the nearest water site to the camp was. Pretty sure one of the universal things in history is soldiers being idiots.
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Jun 1, 2020 16:45
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Pretty sure one of the universal things in history is people being idiots.
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Jun 1, 2020 17:06
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Well yes, soldiers just tend to be idiots in ways that get themselves and/or others on their own side killed.
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Jun 1, 2020 17:12
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Pretty sure one of the universal things in history is soldiers being idiots. Soldiers complain that their leadership is incompetent, stupid, and don't understand what's really happening. Leadership says the troops are too dumb to make their own decisions and need to be micromanaged to keep them from doing really foolish things. Somehow, both are simultaneously correct.
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Jun 1, 2020 17:15
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Hm you mean the poor fools coerced into mass murder-suicide aren't usually the most motivated, educated, or inspired? Colour me fuckin' surprised Wars can be very profitable ventures for a specific few, but usually this isn't the person digging holes for everyone to poo poo into
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Jun 1, 2020 17:20
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canyoneer posted:Soldiers complain that their leadership is incompetent, stupid, and don't understand what's really happening. Leadership says the troops are too dumb to make their own decisions and need to be micromanaged to keep them from doing really foolish things.
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Jun 1, 2020 17:34
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Sulla Faex posted:Hm you mean the poor fools coerced into mass murder-suicide aren't usually the most motivated, educated, or inspired? Colour me fuckin' surprised Hold on, that's not fair. Some go willingly into that mass murder-suicide cult.
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Jun 1, 2020 18:17
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And those in the mass-murder suicide cult who come back alive are somehow treated as heroes and get all sorts of advantages in certain societies.
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Jun 1, 2020 18:33
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something something Flower Wars
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Jun 1, 2020 18:39
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Carbon dioxide posted:And those in the mass-murder suicide cult who come back alive are somehow treated as heroes and get all sorts of advantages in certain societies.
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Jun 1, 2020 19:42
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Carbon dioxide posted:And those in the mass-murder suicide cult who come back alive are somehow treated as heroes and get all sorts of advantages in certain societies. So long as they're not injured, troubled, or need some kind of assistance. Cuz then gently caress em, we didn't throw you into a war for you to go and live through it like some kind of rear end in a top hat.
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Jun 1, 2020 20:00
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:One of the universal things is idiots.
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Jun 2, 2020 00:08
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:e: also, the booze thing: it's no much the concentration that concerns me, it's beer and wine can't save you from alcoholism. Like I had about a year of hard drinking right after I moved back to the states where I'd drink beer and wine "reasonably" anywhere between 2 and 7 days in a row and then convalesce and repeat and I was absolutely not about to scribe a racist constitution- the relatively mild withdrawals were enough to floor me and even get my then-partner to check me into the ICU. There was a really humiliating day where my hands were shaking so bad I couldn't write, at all. There were times I sweat so bad I was embarrassed to go out in public. People also probably had a lot more tolerance for other people looking sweaty etc. - my grandfather once told me a story, probably at least somewhat exaggerated, about how in his lifetime he saw the invention of Body Odor. Not in the sense that people started smelling bad when they were sweaty in 1939 or something, but rather that before a certain point it was just: Yeah, it's summer or whatever. It's gonna smell like a goat locker on the subway. Get on with your life. But then they had the idea to convince people they were being judged and the solution was to buy a product... "And that, little Nessus, is why you're spending five dollars a month on a perfume block."
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Jun 2, 2020 00:30
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Lysol basically scared women into thinking that douching was the only way to keep their husbands.
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Jun 2, 2020 01:28
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