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Ash would both die in the Romero-verse but also not be killed by a zombie. That feels true.
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Jun 1, 2020 15:41
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If Ash has been in Dawn of the Dead he would have rigged the entire mall to explode to kill all the zombies and only found the civil defense supplies a few seconds before it blew up.
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Jun 1, 2020 15:48
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This is it! For CD Bragging Rights and argument-ending, we have arrived at the finals, and it will work a little different. First, there will be a vote for Best Overall Franchise. Use any criteria you like, or flip a coin, they're both great This will count as Two Wins (this will make sense in a moment)  Next, we'll vote on Best Gore. Not necessarily these scenes but across the whole franchise. Grodiest effects, most extreme, most convincing, just gnarliest gore  Next, Best Remake. Judge these movies not against their predecessors, but only as stand-alone movies that are their own thing, as if the originals did not exist. Are these remakes proof the original concepts are so good they can work beyond the magic moment their originals captured?  Finally, Best Sequel. Judge these based on how well they follow up, expand, raise the stakes or just upgrade the originals. Judge these two based ONLY on the films that immediately precede them. You may use Dawn of the Dead (04), but must judge it against Night of the Living Dead (90)  The franchise with at least 3 points will be the winner! Here we go! One week until there will never be an argument in the Horror thread ever again! Vote Now! Share this link with your friends!
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Jun 1, 2020 17:35
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I dig having more categories for the final E: misread the sequel category.
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Jun 1, 2020 17:47
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Real Sophies choice bracket. Well its Romero all the way for me really except for the Gore Category because it NOTLD vs Evil Dead and that's not really a contest
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Jun 1, 2020 18:10
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I ended up splitting, giving best gore and best remake to ED. I think that sequel is something that I think a lot of folks are going to give to Evil Dead 2 and not for unfair reasons. But while Evil Dead 2 is not a literal remake, it's a spiritual one. It's Raimi perfecting what he had done years earlier. Night of the Living Dead on the other end has this brutal ending that points to this underwhelming sense of wrongness of America in what was supposed to be a hokey creature feature. Our Black hero is murdered with absolutely no regard or thought. Nobody will know of his bravery or his story. He's just a statistic, an anonymous body. The movie end with an odd sense of joy at murdering the zombies. Zombie media usually points to this weird fragility of the world. It's a fetishistic fantasy of the privileged that we will collapse the second there's a challenge. Later films like the Snyder remake of Dawn just hop into this light switch world where one day everything falls apart. And that's not necessarily a critique of Snyder. His movie is fundamentally a post 9/11 film even if the intent isn't there. The world suddenly collapsing makes sense for the environment in which he made that film. But Dawn of the Dead is different than the tons of horror it would produce over the years. There still is a society in a lot ways. The opening scenes are incredible because instead of survivalist fantasy, we get something that looks like 1978 America. The military, the media, and the cops all exist. People live in homes. But from the very beginning you see the tension that has grown in people. People are frustrated and trapped. It's not the end of the world necessarily, not at the beginning, but it's not a world anyone is happy with, and yet there is no clear way out. In Dawn of the Dead, the very concept of the United States is presented as rotting. It is in of itself a shambling husk moving forward, following some echo of a drive that it no longer understands. Like yeah man, I like Ash strapping on the chainsaw. But god loving drat man, Dawn is an incredible escalation from Night. Edit: hosed up my timeline a bit Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Jun 1, 2020 |
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Jun 1, 2020 18:27
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The expanded categories allowed me to vote with both my head and my heart.
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Jun 1, 2020 18:53
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Hollismason posted:Real Sophies choice bracket. Well its Romero all the way for me really except for the Gore Category because it NOTLD vs Evil Dead and that's not really a contest I could see someone giving the gore vote to NOTLD just based on how memorable a few of those gore moments are. Evil Dead has more volume of blood and guts but Dawn and Day of the Dead have Savini's work which gives each gore effect more impact than what Raimi was working with. Obviously though it's two totally different styles with different goals in mind so it's hard to compare. Fun Fact: One of Savini's assistants on Dawn of the Dead was Joseph Pilato, Mr. CHOKE ON EMMMMMM himself.
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Jun 1, 2020 18:58
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Best Franchise Best overall franchise is a tight one. Evil Dead, having fewer films, is at a bit of an advantage. There isn't as much dead weight pulling the series down, as with the later half of the Romero films. That said I don't care for Army of Darkness that much. The tonal shift from 2 was a little too much for me, and it feels like a bit of a drop in quality too. It's still a fun film, but it just didn't grab me personally. Whereas the original three Romero films are classic after classic, and while the latter three have issues, I found them enjoyable, if not particularly memorable in their own right. Winner: Romero Best Gore While Evil Dead 2 and the Evil Dead remake boast absolutely exceptional gore, it has to be the Living Dead franchise. Dawn and Day are both a showcase for Tom Savini at the height of his game, and often whilst under tremendous time pressure. We have heads exploding, heads beings ripped off, helicopters scalping people, squibs everywhere, gaping bullet wounds everywhere, intestines everywhere, and the animatronic assisted effects in Day are incredible. That is all without going into the shear mass of background zombie effects throughout the franchise, which itself was a herculean effort. Winner: Romero Best Remake I don't like the Evil Dead remake, I found it, well. Let me just quote my Letterboxd review. quote:There's a lot of really nice, kitnetic, meaty body horror here. It's just a shame that it's in such a passionless, vacuous, predictable, anodyne, witless, charmless, amateurish, yawn inducing film. I also thought the 2004 Dawn was kind of medium, but I did enjoy the Savini remake of Night! I especially enjoyed the subversion of expectations with Barbara, and her turning into a total badass. Winner: Romero Best Sequel This is genuinely a tough one, because Evil Dead 2 and Dawn of the Dead are both my favourite films from both franchises. Evil Dead 2 is I think a greater leap forward than Dawn in terms of general competency, and narrative flow. However ED2 is basically a retread of very familiar ground, and while the film opens up the universe in the final shot, ultimately we're dealing with a very narrow vision. Dawn on the other hand takes a cabin in the woods type story, and expands it dramatically. Suddenly we're forced into narrow projects buildings, and hectic television studios. We're flying over rural areas full of delighted psychopaths, who see joy in tragedy. We're transported to a grand sprawling mall, with all of the commentary on capitalism that entails. We take these characters on a journey from fear and ecstasy, to the pits of existential ennui and depression. Then we throw a biker gang at them. All the while there's constant discussion of what else is happening in the world. Is Canada safe? Are any islands safe? Will the military nuke the cities? The scope and scale couldn't be higher! All of this and on a miniscule indie budget. It has to be Dawn. Winner: Romero And no, I will not climb off Romero's dick. e: Timeless Appeal posted:In Dawn of the Dead, the very concept of the United States is presented as rotting. It is in of itself a shambling husk moving forward, following some echo of a drive that it no longer understands. 
Debbie Does Dagon fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Jun 1, 2020 |
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Jun 1, 2020 19:12
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Timeless Appeal posted:I think that sequel is something that I think a lot of folks are going to give to Evil Dead 2 and not for unfair reasons. But while Evil Dead 2 is not a literal remake, it's a spiritual one. It's Raimi perfecting what he had done years earlier. Agreed. While I adore Evil Dead 2 and think it's a great movie, I don't think it's a great sequel. To me what a great sequel does is it evolves and expands upon the first film while exploring a new direction. ED2 is probably the best example of a sequel just doing what the first film did, mixing it up a bit, and coming out with something great and fresh-feeling on the other end. But it is just a repeat of the first film with more Looney Tunes antics, while Dawn of the Dead embodies what a great sequel should do. It's gotta be Romero there.
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Jun 1, 2020 19:18
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Evil Dead 2 is practically (loosely) a remake of the first movie. It hits all the same beats. But even still, I think it's a better movie than Dawn of the Dead. My votes equaled out to 2 vs. 2, so... excited to see what happens. Better franchise: Romero Better gore: Romero Better sequel: Evil Dead Better remake: Evil Dead
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Jun 1, 2020 19:27
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I'm fine with considering Evil Dead 2 a legit sequel because it uses the idea of a remake as more of a jumping off point than anything else. Like, watching Evil Dead 2 for the first time realizing that all the events of Evil Dead had just played out in the first 20 minutes and that the movie was just getting started is a really great revelation.
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Jun 1, 2020 19:51
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Probably the first matchup of this whole tournament where I've really struggled and can't make a decision out the gate. I'm glad the rightful finalists won. This is the finals this tournament deserves.
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Jun 1, 2020 20:06
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Its been established that Evil Dead 2 is sequel and not a remake. The first 20 minutes just reiterate what happened the second time Ash went to the cabin. Ash goes to the cabin twice.
Hollismason fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Jun 1, 2020 |
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Jun 1, 2020 20:08
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Hollismason posted:Its been established that Evil Dead 2 is sequel and not a remake. The first 20 minutes just reiterate what happened the first time Ash went to the cabin. Ash goes to the cabin twice. Wait now I'm confused. Ash goes to the cabin in Evil Dead. Evil Dead II recaps the events of the first movie and picks up with Ash still stuck at the cabin. Army of Darkness he gets sent back in time. When does he return to the cabin? I haven't seen the TV series, is it in that? edit: tbh, I've never understood why there's so much confusion and debate over Evil Dead II as sequel vs. remake. It's blatantly obvious from the name of the film to the way the plot of the first movie plays out in rapid speed that it's a sequel and it's always been clear to me how it's structured. TrixRabbi fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Jun 1, 2020 |
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Jun 1, 2020 20:10
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Hollismason posted:Its been established that Evil Dead 2 is sequel and not a remake. The first 20 minutes just reiterate what happened the first time Ash went to the cabin. Ash goes to the cabin twice.
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Jun 1, 2020 20:15
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Sorry taht should read second time. Ash goes to the cabin with his first girlfriend and friends in the first film. He escapes . The second movie is the second time he goes back to the cabin. My proof is the audio commentary where they say " Ash goes back to the cabin a second time".
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Jun 1, 2020 20:15
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married but discreet posted:Man, how can Alien not win this? I agree with this opinion. Ummm.....what's "Universal"?
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Jun 1, 2020 20:19
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The shot of the camera flying through the cabin and flinging Ash through the trees in ED2 is pretty clearly the continuation of the final shot of ED1. Ash never left 
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Jun 1, 2020 20:22
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As we all now agree that Ash goes to the cabin twice. Why would he do that? Could it be said that Ash is in fact a serial killer, and the deadites are a fantastical creation he conjures up order to explain his murders? That would make sense, as in the first film he constantly appears to be undergoing an out of body experience, often confused for cowardice. Then in the second film he is correctly identified as the murderer, and locked in the basement. The third film then is his complete mental breakdown, and retreat into a fantasy world.
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Jun 1, 2020 20:32
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Hollismason posted:Sorry taht should read second time. Ash goes to the cabin with his first girlfriend and friends in the first film. He escapes . The second movie is the second time he goes back to the cabin. I'm aware of what the canon version of events is, but I think we all understand that Raimi just wrote the story in such a way that would allow him go back and make a version of the original but this time with a legit budget.
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Jun 1, 2020 20:35
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Debbie Does Dagon posted:As we all now agree that Ash goes to the cabin twice. Why would he do that? Could it be said that Ash is in fact a serial killer, and the deadites are a fantastical creation he conjures up order to explain his murders? That would make sense, as in the first film he constantly appears to be undergoing an out of body experience, often confused for cowardice. Then in the second film he is correctly identified as the murderer, and locked in the basement. The third film then is his complete mental breakdown, and retreat into a fantasy world. Someone bought into the Ashy Slashy gossip!
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Jun 1, 2020 20:41
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And let's be clear... Romero could have easily just made a 1978 version of the 90s Living Dead. Just Night of the Living Dead with a bigger budget, but instead he really upped the scale of his film and rethought the thematics. Evil Dead 2's good, but it's just not as bold.
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Jun 1, 2020 20:48
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MacheteZombie posted:Someone bought into the Ashy Slashy gossip! Is that a legit rumour? Because I was just having fun
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Jun 1, 2020 20:54
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Debbie Does Dagon posted:Is that a legit rumour? Because I was just having fun In the tv show his hometown calls him Ashy Slashy and everyone believes he's a crazy murderer. His dad, played by Lee Majors, owned a hardware store and was forced to close it after the town decided Ash was a psycho.
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Jun 1, 2020 21:01
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Hollismason posted:Sorry taht should read second time. Ash goes to the cabin with his first girlfriend and friends in the first film. He escapes . The second movie is the second time he goes back to the cabin. Nah. A commentary made 20 years after the production of the film, heard by maybe half of the fans of the film, does not get to rewrite what is very clearly state in the film as a continuation of the same night. That same commentary, by the way, says "We had to film a sequence to catch up the audience who may not have seen the first film, but we weren't allowed to actually use that footage. To streamline it, we only showed Ash and Linda instead of the rest of the friends. We get asked a lot if Evil Dead 2 is a sequel. Well, it's called Evil Dead 2. But also, yes, Ash is dumb enough to go back to the cabin twice." The joke is a joke. It's not a rewrite or retcon, they're just joking about how Ash as a character is dumb enough to go to the cabin twice. Same with Ash's name. Ash's name is Ashley Williams. But they also jokingly named him "Ash Holt" as a play on rear end in a top hat. Doesn't mean his name is Ash Holt, it's just a joke from the commentary. The idea that "We remade Evil Dead, but with a budget" isn't a literal 1:1, "This is a remake". It just means "We did a similar story with similar structure, but with a bigger budget." That's true of Dawn of the Dead and Day of the Dead as well, but no one's arguing that they're remakes or sequels.
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Jun 1, 2020 21:01
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I'm with Hollis.
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Jun 1, 2020 21:02
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It's funny, cuz Raimi actually did remake an Evil Dead movie. He remade Army of Darkness with a giant budget. It's called Oz: The Great and Powerful.MacheteZombie posted:I'm with Hollis. 
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Jun 1, 2020 21:05
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TrixRabbi posted:Wait now I'm confused. He does return to the cabin in the tv show. And I don't know if the show is included in the bracket....but if it is....that's a huge boost....because the show absolutely kicks rear end. Also...I was always under the impression that Evil Dead II was just a campier remake of the original. I guess I haven't seen it in a while. RestingB1tchFace fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Jun 1, 2020 |
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Jun 1, 2020 21:13
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Franchescanado posted:That's true of Dawn of the Dead and Day of the Dead as well, but no one's arguing that they're remakes or sequels. Evil Dead 2 literally does remake the first film before transitioning into an actual sequel that still repeats stuff like the tree scene, not a play on the tree scene. Just the same scene with a better budget.
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Jun 1, 2020 21:26
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Franchescanado posted:It's funny, cuz Raimi actually did remake an Evil Dead movie. He remade Army of Darkness with a giant budget. It's called Oz: The Great and Powerful. Can you link me to the scene where a heavy metal skeleton army attacks a castle? tia
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Jun 1, 2020 21:40
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Okay I give up, I've been watching the movie wrong since forever and only have the writers, directors and star on my side. quote:Director Sam Raimi, producer Rob Tapert and company made Evil Dead II at a different production company than the first and did so for virtually no money. Different distributors had come in to release Evil Dead in both theatrical and home video formats and Raimi simply didn’t have the rights to any footage of the first feature. Therefore, they had to reshoot it. Bringing back all of the characters from the first would have not only been expensive, given that they would be hiring the actors for a very short amount of time, but would have been convoluted as they would have had to retread the whole story beat-for-beat in a span of roughly seven minutes. So they decided only to use Ash and Linda and focus on the major emotional highpoint of The Evil Dead, which was Linda’s possession. This is the sole explanation for the film’s reshot opening, and it is far from the first sequel to have to reshoot footage because the rights to the original feature had been lost. Nearly all of this is explained on the commentary track of Evil Dead II. quote:While Raimi and Campbell have stated that Evil Dead 2 was intended as a direct sequel, there are differences between the first movie and the recap at the beginning of the second The actual film:  But sure. Someone provide me context where it is explicit Ash is visiting the cabin for a 2nd time, and it's not just a retelling of the original in a few minutes, made 7 years later, with different cast due to budgetary constraints. feedmyleg posted:Can you link me to the scene where a heavy metal skeleton army attacks a castle? tia There were a bunch of these think pieces when it came out. Timeless Appeal posted:That is absolutely not true outside of the most vague "group of people face zombies in isolated location." The dynamics of Day are incredibly different as are the thematics and the story. Okay, a better example would be how Mad Max: Fury Road is a structural remake of The Road Warrior, with some retelling, some retconning, and a bigger budget, where the final act of Road Warrior is the entirety of Fury Road. Franchescanado fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Jun 1, 2020 |
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Jun 1, 2020 21:45
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Jun 1, 2020 21:49
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Franchescanado posted:But sure. Someone provide me context where it is explicit Ash is visiting the cabin for a 2nd time, and it's not just a retelling of the original in a few minutes, made 7 years later, with different cast due to budgetary constraints. So, I don't know who'd be earnestly saying that Ash visited the Cabin a second time in Evil Dead 2 because that's some stupid right there. But I haven't been following this convo either Maybe they're referring to the TV series where he does explicitly go back? (And that also double triple confirms that he's only been there the one time)
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Jun 1, 2020 21:54
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Burkion posted:So, I don't know who'd be earnestly saying that Ash visited the Cabin a second time in Evil Dead 2 because that's some stupid right there. But I haven't been following this convo either I've been watching this series and can't wait to have that episode number ready to pull out whenever this silly conversation comes up.
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Jun 1, 2020 21:55
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RestingB1tchFace posted:He does return to the cabin in the tv show. The show definitely is included in this and I really think it's a major reason why Evil Dead made it this far. I think there would've been a lot more arguments being put forward about how it's a very limited series with only a single trilogy but the show coming along and being so good really seals the deal.
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Jun 1, 2020 22:01
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Burkion posted:So, I don't know who'd be earnestly saying that Ash visited the Cabin a second time in Evil Dead 2 because that's some stupid right there. But I haven't been following this convo either Already confirmed by me. He goes back in the show. The show is super badass for anyone on the fence about watching it, by the way.
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Jun 1, 2020 22:01
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The entire show is really good but Season 2 is special.
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Jun 1, 2020 22:04
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I'm right because my answer is funnier and cooler.
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Jun 1, 2020 22:06
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Hollismason posted:I'm right because my answer is funnier and cooler. It's this btw
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Jun 1, 2020 22:09
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