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Who will you vote for in 2020? This poll is closed. |
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|---|---|---|---|
| Biden |
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425 | 18.06% |
| Trump |
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105 | 4.46% |
| whoever the Green Party runs |
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307 | 13.05% |
| GOOGLE RON PAUL |
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151 | 6.42% |
| Bernie Sanders |
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346 | 14.70% |
| Stalin |
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246 | 10.45% |
| Satan |
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300 | 12.75% |
| Nobody |
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202 | 8.58% |
| Jess Scarane |
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110 | 4.67% |
| mystery man Brian Carroll of the American Solidarity Party |
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61 | 2.59% |
| Dick Nixon |
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100 | 4.25% |
| Total: | 2089 votes | ||
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Mellow Seas posted:Literally what the gently caress are you talking about? You are white washing history through pedantry. If I say "All Cops Are Bastards" and you reply "What about this specific cop?" the effect of your comment is to undercut the violence of the police system. You are doing the same thing when we say "gently caress the Bush Administration" and you reply "What about the school lady?" And by the way, she is a loving criminal too for No Child Left Behind. She is no different than Betsy Devos.
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Jun 5, 2020 14:33
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Mellow Seas posted:I genuinely appreciate this clarification, because I wasn't terribly politically engaged at the time and I was under the impression you only included Biden because he voted for the war powers resolution. This is a very, very, very good argument that he bears more responsibility for the war than a rank-and-file Senator and should be in prison. It's all good. A lot of people have really disingenuously argued that he was just swept up in the whole mess when, nope, he was actually collaborating with Bush to push the lies. Just know that when leftists get super pissed about Biden, their hatred is coming from a good place.
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Jun 5, 2020 14:34
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Cpt_Obvious posted:You are white washing history through pedantry. And while NCLB is a terrible policy, I don't think Margaret Spelling belongs in prison; Betsy DeVos probably does for crimes associated with being a scummy-rear end billionaire, but not for her education policies (and her brother definitely belongs in prison). I'm not even disagreeing with PK at this point, after he's clarified himself, so calm the eff down. E: * I realize I also called it "very vague" but I mean he used specific words, not that the meaning was specific. Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Jun 5, 2020 |
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Jun 5, 2020 14:36
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Somfin posted:I checked this one just to be sure, and sure enough, there's literally only one racial group that fits between ten and fifteen percent of the population. so here's what's so incredibly insane about this argument - that what biden meant by this statement was "all black people are bad people" (the argument that this might be a little too close to the "deplorables" comment is a reasonable argument, though i think it's probably wrong) let's look at the chain of logic here, starting with the original statement biden made that “There are probably anywhere from 10 to 15 percent of the people out there that are just not very good people, but that’s not who we are. The vast majority of the people are decent, and we have to appeal to that and we have to unite people — bring them together. Bring them together.” this is the underlying thing said. let's ignore the context (which is the most generous assumption to somfin, since the context is so abundantly about racists being bad people) and follow the chain of logic from there 1) by saying "probably anywhere from 10 to 15 percent of the people out there" biden was hinting "at a specific, measurable slice of the population" and means "for us to look for matching percentages". this, by itself, is a nutty assumption. it does two things. first, it takes a concept ("not very good people") and assumes that it must be talking about a specific identifiable segment of the population, identifiable by something other than not being good people. that's a bizzare logical leap. it suggests an implicit belief that there must be an underlying correlation between "not very good people" and a demographic subgroup, which is...questionable at best. second, it's literal Q-tier thinking. it is a vague reference that somfin immediately starts trying to deconstruct the hidden meaning we are intended to find. remember, it is an article of faith among somfin and similar busters that biden is senile so the fact he is dropping oblique coded references only certain people are intended to get is problematic. but even if somfin agreed that whole senile thing is nonsense, it's still a crazy, crazy assumption. why should we believe a statement that has not one, not two, but three seperate indications (in six words) that the number is a vague guess: "probably"; "anywhere" and a range that is round numbers. 2) most troubling, somfin makes the logical leap that if biden is talking about a specific identifiable group of between 10-15% of people that are not good people, that he must be talking about "one racial group". and thats, uh, telling on himself. why on earth would you make that logical leap? it makes no sense. it is one of those mistakes that is revealing about a person's own thought patterns, because the only way you can get to such a bizarre result is by extrapolating from your own thought patterns. now, let's add the context back in. the context is that: quote:Mr. Biden offered his estimate during remarks in which he spoke about the importance of a president setting a positive example for the nation on racial issues. to get to where somfin is, we must assume: 1) biden is a secret racist. not just, like, some racist beliefs and thoughts that he has never realized are racist: that biden is an out and out "the entire race are inferior and bad" open thinking. i get that is an article of faith among bernouts, so let's just leave that one stated explicitly and move on. 2) biden, in a context where it makes no sense, decided to throw out a coded reference to that belief. not that he did so accidentally, he did so on purpose in a scenario where it makes no sense to do so given the audience; where it makes no sense to do so politically; where there's just no drat reason at all. note that this requires believing he intentionally coded this statement for certain people to unpack, so claiming he accidentally let the mask slip doesn't work. 3) we know this is a coded reference to that belief, because the statement "probably anywhere from 10 to 15 percent" must refer to a "specific, measurable slice of the population" (note: not just "the bad people" but specific and measurable in some other way, implicitly demographically") and that he "mean[s] for us to look for matching percentages" 4) to deny this requires affirmative faith in joe biden: not "this is a lunatic conspiracy theory fox news would say was too much for them" but you must affirmatively have faith in joe biden to deny this chain of logic i would note that somfin tried to walk this back some Somfin posted:I don't think there's a motive, like I don't think that Biden is a Klansman or whatnot, but I do think that there's an underlying network of assumptions and half-truths that he's working from that are sourced from and massively support white supremacy; the same assumptions and half-truths he's been working from his entire life but now only half-glimpsed through fog. He knows that there's something he read once about how 12% of the population account for most of the crime, so he vague-ified that up to make sure he wasn't completely off and drooled it out. however, this attempt just doesn't work. remember: somfin's theory was that when Joe Biden said "probably anywhere from 10 to 15 percent" of people are not very good people, in the context of talking about racism, he was saying black people are not very good people. not only that, but that joe biden "mean[s] for us to look for matching percentages" and must be "hinting at a specific, measurable slice of the population" so all you need to do is look for - and again, these are direct quotes from somfin, "one racial group that fits between ten and fifteen percent of the population" this is important not just because it was a specific dumb thing said, but that this sort of logic keeps bubbling up from bernouts. to be fair, nobody else thought this was a theory they wanted to hitch their wagon to; but they didn't want to disclaim it either. and this is the sort of thing you need to take a hard look at and ask "how did we get here, and how do i avoid falling into this same sort of thinking." because it's completely nuts. every leap of this logic was crazy. it wasn't wrong like when you just start off with a factual misunderstanding about how things work. it wasn't just flawed, where you make a logical leap that doesn't quite work (e.g. biden did not rule out a second term ergo biden pledged to run for a second term) but you can see the reasonable error. this was completely ludicrious logical leaps, the kind that characterize Q poo poo; trying to dig dig dig to find the hidden meaning in words that magically tells you what you already believed is 100% true
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Jun 5, 2020 14:47
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evilweasel posted:effortpost about how unfair it is to assume Biden is racist I don't think Biden was talking about black people there but you really need to cut some slack to the people who reflexively thought he was. Biden has a long record of saying incredibly racist poo poo like how he doesn't want his kids to grow up in a "racial jungle" https://www.businessinsider.com/biden-said-desegregation-would-create-a-racial-jungle-2019-7 He also has a long history of supporting incredibly racist policies and fighting desegregation. If people hear him say something about how 10-15% of the population are just bad and jump to the conclusion that he's being racist, that's more of a reflection on Biden and his record of being a vile racist than anything else.
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Jun 5, 2020 15:01
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Would you look at that, right on schedule, a new rapist avatar. Thanks, buyer, for reminding me never to post here.
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Jun 5, 2020 15:03
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The fact that there are people in this thread who are getting self righteous and angry at the people who are upset about a conservative racist, rapist, war criminal getting the dem nomination is incredible. This is what you're spending your $10 on? Shaming people who are justifiably furious at Joe Biden?
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Jun 5, 2020 15:05
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Somfin posted:Would you look at that, right on schedule, a new rapist avatar. Thanks, buyer, for reminding me never to post here. Don't stop. That is the goal. To quash dissent through the application of wealth.
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Jun 5, 2020 15:06
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I'll go on record as saying the avatar thing is loving annoying and petty and should stop.
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Jun 5, 2020 15:09
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Mellow Seas posted:I'll go on record as saying the avatar thing is loving annoying and petty and should stop. All that money that could be going towards bail funds is instead spent bullying leftists into silence. It is shameful.
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Jun 5, 2020 15:13
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Don't stop. That is the goal. To quash dissent through the application of wealth. Nah. Let them have their win. Let them kill the discussion and silence those who disagree. They paid good money for the victory and I'll see to it that they get what they want. This thread isn't worth the consistent abuse.
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Jun 5, 2020 15:14
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Somfin posted:Nah. Let them have their win. Let them kill the discussion and silence those who disagree. They paid good money for the victory and I'll see to it that they get what they want. He will follow you to C-Spam and continue to harass you there. That is how bullying works.
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Jun 5, 2020 15:16
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evilweasel posted:... insane ... nutty ... literal Q-tier thinking ... crazy, crazy ... completely nuts ... Q poo poo ... All else aside, it really is fun when liberals get mad enough to say what they really think of the “bernouts” in their midsts. No wonder we’re all so excited to vote for Joe! (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 5, 2020 15:20
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Mellow Seas posted:I'll go on record as saying the avatar thing is loving annoying and petty and should stop. The sooner goddamn Jeff gets that one button AV blank/revert functionality working, and Main Painframe uses it, the better.
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Jun 5, 2020 15:21
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rko posted:All else aside, it really is fun when liberals get mad enough to say what they really think of the “bernouts” in their midsts. No wonder we’re all so excited to vote for Joe! They've been clear about this ever since they began gloating that the only people with any political power are conservative boomers.
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Jun 5, 2020 15:24
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Cpt_Obvious posted:He will follow you to C-Spam and continue to harass you there. That is how bullying works. Yeah, he probably will. But if he does at least the moderation there is willing to be on my side in public.
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Jun 5, 2020 15:42
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Somfin posted:Meanwhile everybody who's been thinking "Biden's gonna get us into another forever war" is looking at this and then considering finishing that bottle of whiskey. Depends on whether you'd count the Obama administration's numerous foreign policy failures as his. Continuing our Middle Eastern wars and interventions under Biden is practically guaranteed, and with this election making such a big deal of Ukraine/Russia stuff we can expect that to be relatively fresh in his head. I don't know if there's any major Iraq-style ambitions in his head, but I don't think there's been a Democratic president in living memory who didn't engage in pointless foreign military interventions in some way. Even the relatively dovish Carter sent the CIA to fund the mujahideen in Afghanistan. The problem is not really the presidents themselves, but their uncritical acceptance and embrace of a community of "foreign policy experts" descended from the early Cold War, who believe that spreading US government influence and power is a worthy goal in itself.
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Jun 5, 2020 15:46
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punishedkissinger posted:oh i'm sorry, i didn't realize that when you said "people were angry" you specifically meant "people on these subforum were angry" I was responding to someone being dismissive of people's arguments in this thread as being disingenuous because they attacked Bernie for the Rogan endorsement. The people being accused of arguing that did not, finding someone else somewhere else on the internet who said that does not change that. There is an entire cinematic universe going on in this thread where people pick something Biden said completely out of context, editorialize on it with extreme leaps of logic/hyperbole of the internet conspiracy style of logic that only makes sense if you're operating from the assumption your premise is correct, then present their opinions as the literal words coming out of Bidens mouth. It's then discussed as if it was literally the words out of Biden's mouth and further editorialized on in the form of "well that's what he said imagine what he thinks". Then the next day there's another arguement and suddenly this second round of editorializing is trotted out as something Biden said and proof of why the new thing being read out of context actually means x horrible thing. This is how Biden gets routinely cited as killing people by forcing the WI primary when that is not remotely an accurate description of what happened. But it gets dragged up every few pages as evidence of some new assessment of his behavior as if it's a mutually agreed upon set of facts. edit: or perhaps the better example lately is the fact that Biden's entire police reform policy is teaching cops to shoot people in the legs is now presented as gospel truth while being a ridiculous characterization of his actual statements. Jarmak fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Jun 5, 2020 |
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Jun 5, 2020 15:52
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evilweasel posted:so here's what's so incredibly insane about this argument - that what biden meant by this statement was "all black people are bad people" (the argument that this might be a little too close to the "deplorables" comment is a reasonable argument, though i think it's probably wrong) You do realize Biden has a rich history of parroting dumb white supremacist tropes, right? Hell, in one of the debates this cycle he went on about how black mothers need to let their babies listen to the "record player" (lmao) so they can get used to human speech. It's half remembered and reflexively regurgitated Charles Murray poo poo that was popular in the 80s and 90s. Figuring "oh he's doing that thing again where his brain melted and he doesn't remember the context of the old racist poo poo he picked up from hanging out with literal klansmen" isn't the biggest ask in this situation. FWIW I think he just burped out a really low number to make a rhetorical point, but given his history I could see there being more to this.
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Jun 5, 2020 15:53
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Jarmak posted:I was responding to someone being dismissive of people's arguments in this thread as being disingenuous because they attacked Bernie for the Rogan endorsement. The people being accused of arguing that did not, finding someone else somewhere else on the internet who said that does not change that. This is just utter bullshit since the person you were responding to was specifically talking about the people who criticized the Rogan endorsement as was the person they were responding to. Your response was a completely irrelevant deflection. Edit: Also there's nothing to suggest that either of those posters were referring specifically to this thread. It's yet another conclusion you jumped to in order to obliquely defend Biden. punishedkissinger fucked around with this message at 15:58 on Jun 5, 2020 |
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Jun 5, 2020 15:55
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Jarmak posted:I was responding to someone being dismissive of people's arguments in this thread as being disingenuous because they attacked Bernie for the Rogan endorsement. The people being accused of arguing that did not, finding someone else somewhere else on the internet who said that does not change that. what was Joe Biden's stance on whether or not the Wisconsin primary needed to go forward, regardless of some pesky little plague, before and after it occurred, Jarmak. you may want to check up on the facts before you answer, you may notice your memory has been unreliable of late.
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Jun 5, 2020 15:55
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Main Paineframe posted:Depends on whether you'd count the Obama administration's numerous foreign policy failures as his. Continuing our Middle Eastern wars and interventions under Biden is practically guaranteed, and with this election making such a big deal of Ukraine/Russia stuff we can expect that to be relatively fresh in his head. i'm fairly worried about biden's saber rattling wrt china. first with the covid19 bs, and now claiming chinese-backed hackers tried to breach his accounts.
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Jun 5, 2020 15:57
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Condiv posted:i'm fairly worried about biden's saber rattling wrt china. first with the covid19 bs, and now claiming the chinese gov tried to breach his accounts. google is claiming that china tried to breach accounts linked to both campaigns, and this would be an entirely normal activity for china to engage in. the united states does similar stuff all the time.
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Jun 5, 2020 15:58
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evilweasel posted:google is claiming that china tried to breach accounts linked to both campaigns, and this would be an entirely normal activity for china to engage in. the united states does similar stuff all the time. that doesn't address my concerns in the least evil weasel. i don't trust this announcement that "chinese and iranian backed hackers tried to breach campaign accounts", and it worries me that the biden campaign has been wallowing in anti-chinese sentiment stuff like this and biden saying the equivalent of "we should've forced china to accept UN investigators when it came to covid19" really worries me about the direction this country is taking with the chinese Condiv fucked around with this message at 16:03 on Jun 5, 2020 |
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Jun 5, 2020 15:59
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Condiv posted:that doesn't address my concerns in the least evil weasel
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Jun 5, 2020 16:00
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Condiv posted:that doesn't address my concerns in the least evil weasel Also, literally who gives a poo poo that hackers are trying to breach a political campaign? this happens literally every moment of every day.
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Jun 5, 2020 16:00
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evilweasel posted:google is claiming that china tried to breach accounts linked to both campaigns, and this would be an entirely normal activity for china to engage in. the united states does similar stuff all the time. Good propaganda is not founded upon a lie, it is created through emphasis.
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Jun 5, 2020 16:03
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:what was Joe Biden's stance on whether or not the Wisconsin primary needed to go forward, regardless of some pesky little plague, before and after it occurred, Jarmak. I don't give a gently caress if Biden entire policy platform was "the WI primary must happen" that is not the same thing as "Biden killed people by making the WI primary happened" This is exactly my point, I complained that X statement was a characterization and you responded with "are you saying Y didn't happen?". It's disengenous as gently caress, no I didn't say Y didn't happen, I said X didn't happen. Biden made like one statement in a single interview in a morning time-slot were he said something off the cuff like "We'll listen to whatever the experts say but right now the experts are saying it's safe to vote". The experts weren't saying that and that was a bad and wrong thing to say. Criticizing him for saying that, it's evidence of him saying dumb off the cuff poo poo that's wrong, it's evidence he didn't take it seriously enough. What it isn't is the Biden campaign making the vote happen. It's a very "meh we're not going to take responsibility for this" sort of thing. The democrats did postpone the primary, the loving GOP supreme court is what made it happen.
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Jun 5, 2020 16:06
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Son of Thunderbeast posted:And if it is in fact so normal and expected, it makes it even more concerning that Biden's trying to make a thing out of it. He's not. A brief statement that doesn't even specifically accuse the government in China of doing anything is pretty restrained. Google made news, his campaign acknowledged it and reassured his supporters that they were taking all the proper precautions because that was.... a big problem in Hillary's campaign, so its natural for Dems to worry about a repeat of DNC hacks.
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Jun 5, 2020 16:07
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Condiv posted:that doesn't address my concerns in the least evil weasel. i don't trust this announcement that "chinese and iranian backed hackers tried to breach campaign accounts" who made the announcement - google, or the biden campaign - is relevant to interpreting from it but the fact it is entirely normal behavior you would expect (and has been going on for years) should absolutely address your concerns that this particular attempted hacking episode is some basis for war. the primary message the biden campaign was probably trying to send there is "we did, in fact, notice it was a problem the clinton campaign had poor email security, and we have been trying to not fall into that same trap" because they stressed the attempts had been unsuccessful. it's not a foreign policy thing, it's trying to display competence - running their campaign competently, to stress the "we'll govern competently" argument
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Jun 5, 2020 16:07
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Condiv posted:that doesn't address my concerns in the least evil weasel. i don't trust this announcement that "chinese and iranian backed hackers tried to breach campaign accounts", and it worries me that the biden campaign has been wallowing in anti-chinese sentiment I don't necessarily disagree with you, want to hear more.
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Jun 5, 2020 16:08
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edit: incorrect info
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Jun 5, 2020 16:09
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The Democratic white washing of George W. Bush is an especially heinous condemnation of everything they claim to stand for. Travel back with me to the year 2008. His reign is near an end, and it is soon time to pick our next president. The public wildly opposes the years of Republican rule, and instead turn out in record numbers to support the Democrats. So hated by the electorate, Republicans lose both houses and the presidency. It is a clear rejection of everything Bush stood for: War in the middle east, violent oppression of minorities, and the disintegration of sacred laws. Barack Obama and the rise of the Democratic party was the antithesis of George W. Bush. However, we can now see this antithesis as hollow. We see Democrats of all stripes attempting to rally behind the very evil they are supposed to oppose. The man responsible for more chaos and pain than any other American in my lifetime is lionized because of words he has not yet spoken. The only logical conclusion is that Democrats do not care about the horrors he released upon our world. Democrats do not care about murdering innocent people. Democrats do not care about enshrining torture into our legal system. Democrats do not care about flagrant violations of constitutional law. Democrats do not care about suppressing dissent through fear and violence. To a Democrat, these are means, and what they opposed were the ends. These means are to be embraced should the need arise. And, to a Democrat, that need has arisen. There is an old Nietzsche quote that goes “Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster.” However, I do not feel in this case it is fully accurate. The Democrats have not "become" monsters. They have always supported endless violence, endless bloodshed, and endless oppression because their goal is not to free us from tyrannical rulers, but to replace them.
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Jun 5, 2020 16:14
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Cpt_Obvious posted:The Democratic white washing of George W. Bush is an especially heinous condemnation of everything they claim to stand for. oh so i guess you love trump huh? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 5, 2020 16:15
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Timeless Appeal posted:Can you elaborate a bit? I have concerns about yellow peril tropes and understand how they can infect what seems like a non-racist conversation--education reform is surprisingly bogged down by yellow peril fears--but I guess I do feel less concerned about sentiments against Xi or the government itself. there has been a lot of stuff accusing the chinese of having created or covered up covid19, and quite frankly I don't draw much of a distinction between the two stances. the chinese almost certainly didn't create it, and even though they probably did cover it up for a period of time, it was reported on in earnest early enough that pretty much every western nation could've controlled the spread if they had taken it more seriously. the biden campaign's rhetoric on china and covid19 dips heavily into the latter, blaming the massive spread in the US on a chinese coverup instead of US officials (including biden himself) refusing to take or actively fighting the steps necessary to combat the virus until it got really bad. I worry about the increased racism against the chinese this virus has stoked, and I especially worry about a campaign that's stoking racist fears of china like this: https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1251582266251243525?s=20 that ad states clearly that china was not working hard to contain the coronavirus. I was following the news at that time (cause my chinese friend was freaked out about the virus), and china did a lot of of hard work to contain the coronavirus, quarantining cities, building temporary hospitals, and trying to limit movement. the ad literally blames the spread of the virus across the world on china, when the fact of the matter is, even when it was clear how dangerous and contagious the virus was, we had western countries not doing basic poo poo to keep it under control until there was a pandemic within them.
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Jun 5, 2020 16:28
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Jarmak posted:I don't give a gently caress if Biden entire policy platform was "the WI primary must happen" that is not the same thing as "Biden killed people by making the WI primary happened" as long as we're clear Joe Biden's stance was, in fact, that you should die for him.
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Jun 5, 2020 16:29
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Condiv posted:there has been a lot of stuff accusing the chinese of having created or covered up covid19, and quite frankly I don't draw much of a distinction between the two stances. the chinese almost certainly didn't create it, and even though they probably did cover it up for a period of time, it was reported on in earnest early enough that pretty much every western nation could've controlled the spread if they had taken it more seriously. "If the options are Trump screaming racist bullshit at the top of his lungs, and Biden mumbling racist bullshit in confusing disjointed sentences, it's clear to me who I should vote for" 
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Jun 5, 2020 16:32
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:as long as we're clear Joe Biden's stance was, in fact, that you should die for him. TBF, it was very much the lie of "oh yeah, it's perfectly safe." Lies, death, violence, anything to cement power.
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Jun 5, 2020 16:32
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Jarmak posted:Biden made like one statement in a single interview in a morning time-slot were he said something off the cuff like "We'll listen to whatever the experts say but right now the experts are saying it's safe to vote". The experts weren't saying that and that was a bad and wrong thing to say. Criticizing him for saying that, it's evidence of him saying dumb off the cuff poo poo that's wrong, it's evidence he didn't take it seriously enough. you would think that. but during the time he made this remark, he was hosting remote fundraisers, and he was not giving public interviews. it's clear from his behavior that when it came to him and his donors, he took coronavirus seriously. when it came to average voters like you and me, he decided to spread misinformation about how safe polling stations were.
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Jun 5, 2020 16:32
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:as long as we're clear Joe Biden's stance was, in fact, that you should die for him. That wasn't his stance, his "stance" was it was safe to vote, and IIRC his campaign never took an official position on the issue so we're picking at a couple of comments made in tv interviews at the start of the controversy that they never seriously promoted as a position. It was a bad stance, dangerous even, but never was the stance of the Biden campaign "people should die to vote for me", that's you're opinion of the implications of his stance. Moreover it was never reality that he actually did anything to make that happen. He had nothing to do with the decision, the opposite decision was made, and the GOP are the ones that made the vote happen.
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Jun 5, 2020 16:38
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