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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:Lol I may be already leaving the PSL! Lots of good comrades that I've met but I was just warned not to start the community defense organization I've been working on. It's the party line to 'work on political action' and that we're not allowed to be armed for government repression reasons. Lmao. You don't cower before your loving oppressors. it's baffling to me how many ostensible leftists in this country are still brain-poisoned by the liberal antigun canard, like if you're a leftist in america right now you have a moral obligation to be armed and organized if you're going to be out in the streets
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Jun 6, 2020 07:03
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That's surprising, even when I was in the ISO (rip lol) I knew people who were also members of the SRA, with neither encouragement nor discouragement from leadership. I was considering also joining myself before circumstances led to me leaving the country. I would have figured the Stalinists would have been more gung-ho about such things.
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Jun 6, 2020 07:09
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:Lol I may be already leaving the PSL! Lots of good comrades that I've met but I was just warned not to start the community defense organization I've been working on. It's the party line to 'work on political action' and that we're not allowed to be armed for government repression reasons. Lmao. You don't cower before your loving oppressors. This here is why revisionist marxism is worse than anarchism, ideologically confused mass organizations etc. They organize to force all the good people down to their level. And you can smell the opportunism there, they want to present as the left wing of the organized left without having to prepare for any out of control trouble to their personal lives. That's simply not a revolutionary party, it's a DSA with some Lenin branding. Its function is to tell spontaneous revolutionaries to stop being revolutionaries. I hope these times force the CR-CPUSA to grow up from their silliness, because they seem to be the only marxists, leninists and so on in the USA that genuinely want to organize combative and legally troublesome mass organizations and base their strategy on having a network of those. Or if some internal clique prevents their development, they could at least inspire someone better to take their place.
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Jun 6, 2020 07:43
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uncop posted:This here is why revisionist marxism is worse than anarchism, ideologically confused mass organizations etc. They organize to force all the good people down to their level. And you can smell the opportunism there, they want to present as the left wing of the organized left without having to prepare for any out of control trouble to their personal lives. That's simply not a revolutionary party, it's a DSA with some Lenin branding. Its function is to tell spontaneous revolutionaries to stop being revolutionaries. it's kind of the anarchist core hypothesis that (e; top-down) hierarchies tend to bring people down to the lowest common denominator. you can see it even in hierarchies in companies but it's very glaring in big societal ones. so 'good cops' end up abetting the sociopaths and ACAB becomes true; priests who aren't garbage end up abetting the child molesters and turn religion into a mockery (APAP, calling it now); and parties end up abetting the opportunists. dex_sda fucked around with this message at 10:01 on Jun 6, 2020 |
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Jun 6, 2020 09:53
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[through bushy mustache] I don't want to belong to any party that will accept people like me as a member
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Jun 6, 2020 11:00
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dex_sda posted:it's kind of the anarchist core hypothesis that (e; top-down) hierarchies tend to bring people down to the lowest common denominator. you can see it even in hierarchies in companies but it's very glaring in big societal ones. so 'good cops' end up abetting the sociopaths and ACAB becomes true; priests who aren't garbage end up abetting the child molesters and turn religion into a mockery (APAP, calling it now); and parties end up abetting the opportunists. I think the hypothesis is generally speaking not wrong but there’s a counter-hypothesis that IMO is also not wrong: that the majority of people in and around radical movements are also at a rather low level and disorganization or equalizing democratism serve to either bring radicals down to a lower level or isolate them (they have to court the majority as they are or work separately from it). The pattern I see repeat in semi-successful anarchist organizing is that they organize some lukewarm lib-friendly march and simultaneously act in separate support detachments that only have one-way coordination with the march. It reminds me of the attitude required to win in multiplayer games with pubbies who aren’t going to follow any shared plan and you don’t have time to educate. The developed people have to support the less developed in what they spontaneously attempt to do, bringing them down closer to their level in their practice. Basically, there’s no easy way out where one just refuses to treat people unequally and instead waits until the majority has been developed into non-opportunist and capable or competence-respecting radicals. It’s questionable whether that’s even a possible goal to wait for. On some level, everyone is an individualistic opportunist, and the challenge is to be able to empower them where their radical side is in charge and sideline them in the decision-making process where their opportunist side is in charge. One reason why maoists privilege fighting organizations is that once people have decided to fight from an underdog position, at that specific point and in that specific fight they’re clearly committed to selflessly taking on burdens and risks to accomplish something that they agree is good. If at another point or after some change in the fight they don’t want to continue, that’s fine, they can take a break or go for good, but then they also won’t be making any decisions on actions or getting informed on the compromising details. The gonzaloite concept of concentric construction takes the idea one step further and claims that if someone doesn’t take on risks and burdens in combative mass organizations, they aren’t a communist in practice no matter what they claim or think or even if they have membership in the party, and communists should treat them like any lib who’s conditionally willing to take a progressive role in some fights at some times. It should be fruitful to begin analysing hierarchy more concretely: hierarchy of *what*? How does it secure the support of the cadre and keep it motivated? What is being done to keep it a hierarchy of that and not something else? Where is the method succesful and where does it have weaknesses? uncop fucked around with this message at 12:40 on Jun 6, 2020 |
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Jun 6, 2020 12:21
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im not a member of psl and have a lot of political disagreements with them but they have generously maybe 1k people in their organization, prolly half that many actually. same goes for any other socialist org in the US though. DSA has a lot of on paper members at like 60k, which is still miniscule in american politics and prolly only 1-2k of them are active in a meaningful sense. with a few hundred people, you should absolutely not be trying to start the new red guards lol. something like community/workers defense forces are something that make sense when workers are organized meaningfully in the millions and are facing state violence, basically in a legit revolutionary situation. like if the protests happening now wereto continue and escalate and real organization started to come about through them, then it could potentially be a demand that people would respond to and make sense but not at this moment. as it stands now, every radical i see go off and start some armed lefty group has 5 friends that go shoot guns in the woods together on weekends and theyre really good at shooting the guns while being completely unable to talk to anyone who isnt a radical leftist of some kind who they prolly still hate for being thr wrong kind, and one of them invariably is either an abuser or a cop and meanwhile 300 million people in the US arent socialists and arent organized in any meaningful way. the og red guards werent formed until march 1917 when the situation in russia was already revolutionary, and they were formed by factory workers collectively, not just the bolsheviks or some other party declaring them.
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Jun 6, 2020 12:53
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yeah, as boring as it sounds, the best path forward is probably reinvigorating unions and union membership, especially ones built on explicitly labor/Marxist oriented goals of not only defending worker rights but actively seeking to control more of the means of production and its output the two fold benefits of that approach are ridiculously effective at class consciousness awareness raising, #1 actively fighting hard to improve the lives of workers and builds solidarity, and #2 sharpening the antagonism between owners and workers by insistently demanding more control of production and allotment of surplus value as befits the people who created it all attempting to marginalize owners to whatever extent you can forces them to become more aggressive in their tactics and more overt in their language and posture to protect their claim, this feeds back into your worker solidarity matrix and hardens the membership core, it's like a fission bomb, it's the dialectic baby, you gotta get those contradictions to bare their fangs if we ever want to synthesize i don't think complete totalitarian fascist dictatorship that crushes/kills people is any more likely or even likely at all to produce revolutionary results, we've seen people effectively genocide huge swaths of populations all throughout history, you'd have to sell me that american labor class as it exists now has some unique quality to it that'd prevent them from being purged in a way that protects capital smarxist fucked around with this message at 13:01 on Jun 6, 2020 |
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Jun 6, 2020 12:58
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I think it's equally important to start smashing yellow unions, considering how prevalent they are and how they work to actively poison the well against other unions forming. The UFCW is one that I think is the absolute worst perpetrator of this and should be first on the block. Most people have their first union experience be them and they literally exist to steal money from workers and enrich the chains that run them.
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Jun 6, 2020 13:09
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uncop posted:I think the hypothesis is generally speaking not wrong but there’s a counter-hypothesis that IMO is also not wrong: that the majority of people in and around radical movements are also at a rather low level and disorganization or equalizing democratism serve to either bring radicals down to a lower level or isolate them (they have to court the majority as they are or work separately from it). For sure, but the perceived advantage is that an anarchist organisation, if it also makes an effort to educate people around them (they usually do) and isn't elitist can avoid both problems - you can have no hierarchy, but you also build a resilient horizontal structure comprised of competent people with goals. It's just that building such a thing takes time, which brings us right back to the main disadvantage of anarchism, the movement has to be painfully grassroots. uncop posted:One reason why maoists privilege fighting organizations is that once people have decided to fight from an underdog position, at that specific point and in that specific fight they’re clearly committed to selflessly taking on burdens and risks to accomplish something that they agree is good. If at another point or after some change in the fight they don’t want to continue, that’s fine, they can take a break or go for good, but then they also won’t be making any decisions on actions or getting informed on the compromising details. The gonzaloite concept of concentric construction takes the idea one step further and claims that if someone doesn’t take on risks and burdens in combative mass organizations, they aren’t a communist in practice no matter what they claim or think or even if they have membership in the party, and communists should treat them like any lib who’s conditionally willing to take a progressive role in some fights at some times. See this I think is an interesting angle, because the self-organisation principles of autonomous anarchists are kinda the opposite: as long as you give your real effort and socialist-minded support, it doesn't matter that you aren't a black blocker. It's very much based on the 'from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs', but it requires a lot of trust and also really careful 'partitioning' of the structure, so compromising details aren't spread to all membership. None of that builds overnight, and you're right in that you have to be careful not to lose the radicals in a sea of less radical people. uncop posted:It should be fruitful to begin analysing hierarchy more concretely: hierarchy of *what*? How does it secure the support of the cadre and keep it motivated? What is being done to keep it a hierarchy of that and not something else? Where is the method succesful and where does it have weaknesses? This is why I pointed out 'top-down' hierarchy. It would be silly to not call a bottom-up federation like many anarchist orgs a hierarchy, but it's structured in such a way that you cannot become a 'professional commander' in any real capacity. All of it to avoid the institutional rot that is the motivating factor for anarchy. smarxist posted:yeah, as boring as it sounds, the best path forward is probably reinvigorating unions and union membership, especially ones built on explicitly labor/Marxist oriented goals of not only defending worker rights but actively seeking to control more of the means of production and its output local organising methods are the way to go in general imo. dex_sda fucked around with this message at 13:19 on Jun 6, 2020 |
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Jun 6, 2020 13:11
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oh wow didnt even realize were talking, seriously it seems, about the glorious chairman gonzalo. yall enjoy your peoples war i guess lol
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Jun 6, 2020 13:21
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i don't think anyone was talking about people's war overly seriously, but my eyebrow did raise at "fighting cadres" coming up lmao. i don't know man, who knows what the gently caress material conditions will be in 3 months, 6 months, etc.
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Jun 6, 2020 13:23
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I personally think it's a good idea to learn some self defense and even how to use a weapon, but not because I believe we are on the cusp of armed insurrection. Instead, it's because community self-defense is going to become increasingly important as society falls apart. There are other threats besides armed agents of the state, who definitely have us outgunned for the imaginable future.
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Jun 6, 2020 13:36
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that's reasonable and completely sound imo it's important to remember 90% of what is happening in these demonstrations is lawful even by booj law, and that brutality that's ostensibly illegal for cops to employ is happening regularly it's going to shift public perception to the point where i feel like people agitating will be able to defend themselves bodily from brutality and not lose in the court of public opinion, which would probably be an important turning point. hell, we're probably there now.
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Jun 6, 2020 13:40
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Mr. Lobe posted:I personally think it's a good idea to learn some self defense and even how to use a weapon, but not because I believe we are on the cusp of armed insurrection. Instead, it's because community self-defense is going to become increasingly important as society falls apart. There are other threats besides armed agents of the state, who definitely have us outgunned for the imaginable future. Agreed. I ain't in America and hence don't have to worry about guns that much but the nazis still like their loving jackboots
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Jun 6, 2020 13:41
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I agree that doing something like unionizing is far better than having five guys walk around with guns, but actually union work is meaningful struggle while walking around with guns only produces the aesthetic of struggle. There aren't many problems people have that a few dudes with guns could solve. The masses already spontaneously do cop watching with their phones. If someone wants to organize a cop watch, they can't just bring in some guns in some Black Panther aesthetic, they have to organize the people who are already cop watching into a somehow more effective force better able to deter the criminal activity of the police. To do anything better, the people who are already individually cop-watching need to be organized, and that's all people work rather than gun work.Grapplejack posted:I think it's equally important to start smashing yellow unions, considering how prevalent they are and how they work to actively poison the well against other unions forming. The UFCW is one that I think is the absolute worst perpetrator of this and should be first on the block. Most people have their first union experience be them and they literally exist to steal money from workers and enrich the chains that run them. I don't think this can be done at least by means of setting up a fairly competing union, the employer chooses who they negotiate with and can always work out a better deal with the less threatening union in order to isolate the threatening union from the workers. IWW was a dead-end strategy, basically. Pacifist organizers are pretty much restricted to organizing the unorganized and hoping that if they get there first, inertia and immaterial gains can defend them from future yellow competition or infiltration. Non-pacifist organizers also have to organize the unorganized to build up any sort of force that could defend itself from competition. No one organized can be defeated with entryism. smarxist posted:i don't think anyone was talking about people's war overly seriously, but my eyebrow did raise at "fighting cadres" coming up lmao. When I refer to theory about fighting, it's not about an aesthetic. Unionizing one's own workplace is a serious and dangerous fight. People are threatened with unemployment, blacklisting, denial of healthcare, grinding poverty. (Of course that only goes for the actual workers unionizing, a professional organizer hopping from workplace to workplace does not have the same kind of skin in the game.) Unionizing one's apartment block is a serious and dangerous fight. Filming cops is a serious and dangerous fight. Anyone who does any of that is a comrade worth far more than a nerd like me or some bunch of fools parading with guns, at least on those specific battlefields. I mentioned "cadres" because anyone who organizationally submits to a hierarchy is a cadre, and I was specifically talking about hierarchy. The difference between cadres and less organized masses when they're engaged in the same action is just that cadres do it because they submit to some organizational decision-making process while less organized masses do it because they personally directly support the decision. The less organized people are more likely to subjectively be at the level of any action they join than cadre and hence the hierarchy of respect for doing the same thing as others should be inverted. Cadres can at best be morally equal to others and at worst blindly submitting to organizational authority, and the higher up someone is in a hierarchy, the better they probably are at just doing what they're told without thinking.
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Jun 6, 2020 14:07
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Mr. Lobe posted:I personally think it's a good idea to learn some self defense and even how to use a weapon, but not because I believe we are on the cusp of armed insurrection. Instead, it's because community self-defense is going to become increasingly important as society falls apart. There are other threats besides armed agents of the state, who definitely have us outgunned for the imaginable future. Agreed. Also vis a vis anarchism. I like both bookchin and lenin. I think Libertarian Socialism has a lot of potential appeal to Americans.
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Jun 6, 2020 14:18
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apropos to nothing posted:im not a member of psl and have a lot of political disagreements with them but they have generously maybe 1k people in their organization, prolly half that many actually. same goes for any other socialist org in the US though. DSA has a lot of on paper members at like 60k, which is still miniscule in american politics and prolly only 1-2k of them are active in a meaningful sense. with a few hundred people, you should absolutely not be trying to start the new red guards lol. something like community/workers defense forces are something that make sense when workers are organized meaningfully in the millions and are facing state violence, basically in a legit revolutionary situation. like if the protests happening now wereto continue and escalate and real organization started to come about through them, then it could potentially be a demand that people would respond to and make sense but not at this moment. as it stands now, every radical i see go off and start some armed lefty group has 5 friends that go shoot guns in the woods together on weekends and theyre really good at shooting the guns while being completely unable to talk to anyone who isnt a radical leftist of some kind who they prolly still hate for being thr wrong kind, and one of them invariably is either an abuser or a cop and meanwhile 300 million people in the US arent socialists and arent organized in any meaningful way. the og red guards werent formed until march 1917 when the situation in russia was already revolutionary, and they were formed by factory workers collectively, not just the bolsheviks or some other party declaring them. this is correct but i think DSA has more than 2k meaningfully active members. edit: My guess DSA is between 10-15k meaningfully active members. also it seems like a lot of posters like the idea of marching around with guns and being shooting revolutionaries but aren't thinking about the work that has to happen before all of that is even possible jarofpiss fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Jun 6, 2020 |
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Jun 6, 2020 14:30
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:Lol I may be already leaving the PSL! Lots of good comrades that I've met but I was just warned not to start the community defense organization I've been working on. It's the party line to 'work on political action' and that we're not allowed to be armed for government repression reasons. Lmao. You don't cower before your loving oppressors. A new member saying "I'm gonna start arming the proletariat" is gonna set off most leftist's cop alarm. You should assume an undercover cop is attending every meeting. Choose your words accordingly. Not only for the safety of yourself but also your comrades. 3 posted:it's baffling to me how many ostensible leftists in this country are still brain-poisoned by the liberal antigun canard, like if you're a leftist in america right now you have a moral obligation to be armed and organized if you're going to be out in the streets A big reason for this tendency is the fact that at the height of the cold war cointelpro would target armed leftist groups (maoists, generally) much more violently than the local trot's newspaper stand. By the fall of the Warsaw Pact only disarmed leftist groups remained. This resulted in a survivor's bias effect of discouraging openly carrying guns IMO these disarmed groups weren't even wrong for the reasons that the idea of having a revolution simply wasn't on the table for the past 30 years. Couple that with the fact that armed maoist groups like the red guards seem to be filled with cops and useful idiots and I understand why PSL is anti-armed demonstration. Obviously there's a difference between "don't bring guns to a rally" and "don't own guns period". Most leftist orgs fall into the former group.
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Jun 6, 2020 15:11
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Dreddout posted:Look at it from their perspective. A "cop alarm" that triggers when no one proposes getting anyone involved in illegal or wrecking activities is horseshit. You said it actually: the alarm isn't actually about the person being a cop, it's about the person not being agreeable to cops. Not even because they're proposing anything less than legal, just because they propose something that cops would see as a challenge to their authority. The issue is, in order to stay agreeable to cops, one has to stay harmless. It's not an accident that reactionaries conjure up some A.N.T.I.F.A. instead of marxist-leninists as their communist boogeyman: reactionaries more respect for anarchists than any marxist org as an opponent. COINTELPRO style stuff is real ofc and there probably is a cop sitting in every important meeting. I'm reminded of the event where MCP-OC's community garden was vandalized by someone claiming that they were doing it for CR-CPUSA but it didn't really have their fringerprint on it and they aren't the type to deny their attacks on who they consider revisionists. MCP-OC immediately and loudly announced that it was the CR-CPUSA and CR-CPUSA immediately and loudly announced that MCP-OC did it themselves. I'm like 90% sure there's an active COINTELPRO-style effort to keep the US maoist movement split and squabbling. Like, obviously the orgs have cops, but it's a sign of respect from reactionaries. And cop work is mostly petty stuff to get people to attack each other, not grand schemes of marching armed workers to confront the police. Select anarchist groups are no doubt also filled with cops given that they have earned considerably more respect.
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Jun 6, 2020 16:12
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smarxist posted:i don't think anyone was talking about people's war overly seriously, but my eyebrow did raise at "fighting cadres" coming up lmao. if food does become an actual problem in the US somehow because the ruling class is so inept they'll not only let unemployment get as bad as it already is, but then somehow gently caress up food supply chains and costs in the richest country in the world, things are going to get wild pretty quickly. It's hard to imagine that it would get that bad, but it seems like a few generations of enjoying the fruits of modernity has rotted the brains of the people who are supposed to run the US and they've forgotten that you need to keep people employed and fed if you don't want mass revolts. if you do that, then you can loot the treasury for your buddies and no one is going to care too much.
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Jun 6, 2020 16:21
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All I'm saying is that if the government focused on crushing the panthers, SNCC, etc we should try to be more like them, not less. Read a really good article/essay from an ex- SNCC member in the 1990s talking about how cowardly all these white Marxist orgs in the USA are and I tend to agree.
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Jun 6, 2020 16:27
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uncop posted:A "cop alarm" that triggers when no one proposes getting anyone involved in illegal or wrecking activities is horseshit. You said it actually: the alarm isn't actually about the person being a cop, it's about the person not being agreeable to cops. Not even because they're proposing anything less than legal, just because they propose something that cops would see as a challenge to their authority. The issue is, in order to stay agreeable to cops, one has to stay harmless. It's not an accident that reactionaries conjure up some A.N.T.I.F.A. instead of marxist-leninists as their communist boogeyman: reactionaries more respect for anarchists than any marxist org as an opponent. I'm not saying it's right I'm merely explaining why this mindset emerged.
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Jun 6, 2020 16:30
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Yeah the answers to a lot of problems might be found in Marxism, but it's definitely is not to be found in explicitly Marxist organizations
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Jun 6, 2020 16:30
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Also I have an unique organizing opportunity in the florida everglades for those interested. pm me
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Jun 6, 2020 16:32
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Dreddout posted:Also I have an unique organizing opportunity in the florida everglades for those interested. pm me 
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Jun 6, 2020 16:48
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3 posted:it's baffling to me how many ostensible leftists in this country are still brain-poisoned by the liberal antigun canard, like if you're a leftist in america right now you have a moral obligation to be armed and organized if you're going to be out in the streets not to be an rear end but i completely understand why specifically leftist groups do not associate themselves openly with community defense and other possible "violent" actions is the government will come down on you like the fist of an angry god because we live in hell
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Jun 6, 2020 16:48
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i wonder if the bolsheviks, prior to the revolution, said "now now, we don't want to get involved in anything illegal, we have to stay strictly above-board" not to mention that nothing i posted or said was illegal. We've already had a local lgbt bar ask us at the SRA to provide security for an event that some chuds said they were going to show up to. SRA can't do that, but all the individual members of an SRA chapter deciding in unison to do it... well, showing up to an event with a concealed carry permit isn't illegal anyways.
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Jun 6, 2020 16:51
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the government doesn't need the excuse of you doing something illegal to destroy your life
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Jun 6, 2020 16:56
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Lady Militant posted:the government doesn't need the excuse of you doing something illegal to destroy your life it's not the place of the oppressed to appease their oppressors. peoples lives are being ruined by the government daily and people are literally being murdered in the streets by the armed enforcers of that government
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Jun 6, 2020 16:56
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the bolsheviks could probably be reasonably sure they were operating / planning in some semblance of secrecy before the rise of the surveillance state, and there weren't militarized police death squads in every area code there's opsec obviously, but you're not going to get very far anywhere in 2020 if your plan is to emulate the Bolsheviks, even if you have their chutzpah that's one of the main problems with revolution; it's not a market tested winner. you can build a whole criminal network of trained killers who will step in front of bullets for your people, smart distribution and logistics people, as well as infiltrating organizations that attempt to stop or counter you based on say DRUGS because everyone loves drugs and wants to give you cash for drugs and not dime you out to police for your public service, so you have lots of tangible resources to build something it's wayyyy different when your product is an abstract goal like the emancipation of the working class, there's no way for anyone to make money on it, not the corps and not the cops, so it's a big gently caress you hoss if you buy too many pipe bomb ingredients with one credit card or w/e
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Jun 6, 2020 17:00
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smarxist posted:the bolsheviks could probably be reasonably sure they were operating / planning in some semblance of secrecy before the rise of the surveillance state, and there weren't militarized police death squads in every area code At that's why the more successful revolutionary cells get into drugs
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Jun 6, 2020 17:09
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:it's not the place of the oppressed to appease their oppressors. peoples lives are being ruined by the government daily and people are literally being murdered in the streets by the armed enforcers of that government Apologies if I'm coming off as pessimistic or glib. I just get sadbrains thinking about goon leftists getting owned trying to do something good for the world
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Jun 6, 2020 17:10
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I agree that it's completely reasonable for leftist groups not to want to be associated with anything that provokes the state, and that it would be a massive dick move to get them mixed up in something like that against their will. Such groups just shouldn't present themselves as revolutionary and try to claim leadership over mass movements (that don't already share their sentiments), the legacy of Marx and Lenin or stuff like that. Also the Bolsheviks got absolutely hosed up by the Okhrana between 1907 and 1916, IIRC a Bolshevik in that period had an under 20% or maybe even under 10% chance to stay free, in Russia, and a Bolshevik. They just got massively replenished in the anti-WW1 struggle. Being a revolutionary has been a terrifying occupation always and everywhere. I think there are some advantages to the digital era, for instance its easier for people to coordinate without knowing each other's identities or locations. Digital mass surveillance has a statistical factor with false positives, it's not a miracle weapon unless the state can figuratively drone bomb those weddings without producing more resistance than they eliminate. uncop fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Jun 6, 2020 |
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Jun 6, 2020 17:57
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Hi thread. I'm not gonna be posting much here, but I'd like to drop by and say something. Feel free to call me out if you think any of this is bullshit: Please have a clear idea of what your views are, and what the views of people/groups you are cooperating with are, and have some basic respect for them. Even if you think they're assholes. Not because it's all sunshine and everyone can get along - you can't all get along forever, if you're at all serious about anything, you probably have conflicting ideas which can't all be put into practice and those differences will have to be eventually resolved one way or the other - but because your common enemies will exploit every caricature you have of each-other's views and twist it to get you to fight each other. Look, I've seen the "life's an adventure, no need for plans, if we're all brave enough we can OHGODSOMANYCOPSIDONTWANTTOGOTOJAILAAAAAASAVEMEHELPPLEASEOPENTHEDOORAAAAAAAAAA" school of anarchism which caused such a spectacular fuckup that my neighbors had to abandon their plan to barricade up and resist eviction to the end, and instead negotiated with the police in order to save those dumb motherfuckers who "came to help". I almost wish they were undercover cops, but no, those guys were just that stupid, and negated everything that other people there could have done to help. I've seen the "Long live comrade Stalin and the world revolution, we must ensure the biological preservation of the Serbian nation, faggotry is cultural fascism" school of marxism which ended with the name of a close friend of mine being provided to actual fascists. Again, I almost wish that guy was actually a fascist infiltrator, but nope, 100% genuine stalinist thinking he could use one enemy to deal with another. God I hate petty masterminds so much. But as damaging as these people are, even more damaging can be the easy caricatures they provide. An actual incident I know of - a rift between an anarchist group and a marxist organization was narrowly avoided because a person who is friendly with both recognized a common element in a number of incidents and investigated - the common element being an individual who was playing both groups, playing nice with the anarchists and trying to be seen with them as much as possible while stoking their somewhat justified fears of "those bigoted tankies" by exaggerating real events or just making poo poo up, while at the same time antagonizing the marxists at any opportunity, sending implicit rape threat messages, accusing genuinely non-bigoted individuals of bigotry in a sneaky "you were awful to X you little poo poo, I heard them say you're incredibly ***-phobic, don't you dare harass them again" way that discourages communication betwen groups and paints every X as a crazy person that's being unreasonably demanding, and so on. You can't rely on being this lucky. This poo poo will happen all the time. There are times when hostility is the correct answer, but until then, have the basic respect to investigate and talk this poo poo through as broadly as you think you can and try to figure out what happened - if at all possible, don't kneejerk to caricature interpretations. Since there was a lot of discussion happening while I was writing this post: You lot who are in USA, don't let yourselves be disarmed. Individual guns won't protect you from getting disappeared in the night when the riots are over, but a sufficient number of guns in the hands of like-minded people in the community can provide a sort of a fleet-in-being effect to significantly reduce the chance of this happening. At the very least, it forces your enemies to make a show of force instead of easily inflicting silent terror. Also, because I've seen this crop up in a worrying number of places: Please, please, please, don't build loving balistas, I don't care if you've seen someone in Hong Kong do it and it looks cool and there are plans online - it's a lethal projectile launcher that is inferior to a gun in every way, much harder to conceal, and still gets you shot because HOLY poo poo SOMEONE IS POINTING A BALISTA AT ME is enough of a reason to do so even to someone who isn't an itchy trigger finger racist yankee psycho cop. Seriously, please, please, please, don't do this, it's so loving stupid.
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Jun 6, 2020 18:19
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my dad posted:Also, because I've seen this crop up in a worrying number of places: Please, please, please, don't build loving balistas, I don't care if you've seen someone in Hong Kong do it and it looks cool and there are plans online - it's a lethal projectile launcher that is inferior to a gun in every way, much harder to conceal, and still gets you shot because HOLY poo poo SOMEONE IS POINTING A BALISTA AT ME is enough of a reason to do so even to someone who isn't an itchy trigger finger racist yankee psycho cop. Seriously, please, please, please, don't do this, it's so loving stupid. I'm not sure if your insinuating this desire is related to the anti-gun canard, but I honestly think it is. People tying themselves in knots trying to resolve their desire to defend themselves with an almost pathological fear of guns.
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Jun 6, 2020 18:35
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prediction: none of these marxist groups will grow meaningfully in either membership size or influence, and they will continue to be largely filled by white people who read theory but fail to relate with or lead ongoing movements against the state no i do not have a solution nor any suggestions
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Jun 6, 2020 18:53
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:i wonder if the bolsheviks, prior to the revolution, said "now now, we don't want to get involved in anything illegal, we have to stay strictly above-board" The Bolsheviks also didn't carry around little devices that record everything they do.
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Jun 6, 2020 18:57
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THS posted:prediction: none of these marxist groups will grow meaningfully in either membership size or influence, and they will continue to be largely filled by white people who read theory but fail to relate with or lead ongoing movements against the state I think the institutions that show the most promise are local labor unions. emphasis on local. leftists should emulate movement conservativism and take over/subvert these institutions from within. this has the benefit of connecting leftists directly to the labor movement while simultaneously introducing left wing thought to union rank & file. not to mention labor unions only succeed long-term under leftist leadership
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Jun 6, 2020 19:05
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You guys seem to forget there was a split in the RSDLP in the first place between the Mensheviks and the Bolsheviks, and both attempted to participate in Duma elections. Reactionary governments just don't surrender power. Here is what Stalin was doing at the time: quote:In October 1899, Stalin began work as a meteorologist at a Tiflis observatory.[45] He attracted a group of supporters through his classes in socialist theory,[46] and co-organised a secret workers' mass meeting for May Day 1900,[47] at which he successfully encouraged many of the men to take strike action.[48] By this point, the empire's secret police — the Okhrana — were aware of Stalin's activities within Tiflis' revolutionary milieu.[48] They attempted to arrest him in March 1901, but he escaped and went into hiding,[49] living off the donations of friends and sympathisers.[50] Remaining underground, he helped plan a demonstration for May Day 1901, in which 3,000 marchers clashed with the authorities.[51] He continued to evade arrest by using aliases and sleeping in different apartments.[52] In November 1901, he was elected to the Tiflis Committee of the Russian Social Democratic Labour Party (RSDLP), a Marxist party founded in 1898.[53] Ardennes fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Jun 6, 2020 |
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Jun 6, 2020 19:58
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