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PinheadSlim posted:Mario Kart, Mario Party, New Zelda, New Mario.... man you'd be lucky to get 6! Uh Pokemon and Star Fox (though 64 was such a good game it seems to have ruined the entire Star Fox franchise.) Not to mention Kirby, Smash Bros, Oppressive Capitalistic Animal simulator, etc. Etc.
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Jun 8, 2020 02:21
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Waltzing Along posted:The venn diagram of people who think BotW is a great game and people with bad opinions about games is a square. Nah, some of them are children, I bet that game is great if you're under 14 and want something to play on the couch while your parents are watching tv.
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Jun 8, 2020 02:26
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DildenAnders posted:Uh Pokemon and Star Fox (though 64 was such a good game it seems to have ruined the entire Star Fox franchise.) Not to mention Kirby, Smash Bros, Oppressive Capitalistic Animal simulator, etc. Etc. How clumsy of me, it was easily twice less than six!
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Jun 8, 2020 02:37
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Remember back in the Genesis/SNES times how there were a bunch of weird baseball games? I just want Mario Baseball
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Jun 8, 2020 03:06
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Khanstant posted:You're so comfortable and used to videogames and videogame logic that you no longer have a good frame of reference for difficulty. People have been saying DS is easy since the first time someone scoffed when someone said it was hard. You even watch professional gamers and compare them to someone who doesn't know how to play videogames at all. Dunno what to tell you man, it's obviously a hard videogame but you're too high level for these quests, sorry. I had a drinking buddy who lived next to a bar who mentioned he was getting stuck on some end game Dark Souls 3 bosses - e.g. the dancer, nameless king. I never played the game before going over to his place but he did have weed. Anyway I beat those bosses for him (in three different sessions) just picking the game up and that's how I beat Dark Souls 3 - I wouldn't say the game is a push-over, as people generally don't give you free drugs to beat easy games, but I was honestly expecting a lot worse.
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Jun 8, 2020 05:00
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Dark Souls is more a different kind of difficulty than people are used to, on top of being one of the first AAA games that doesn't desperately try to drag the player to the credits.Fashionable Jorts posted:Lol Nintendo's entire business model is based around being a decade behind everyone else, and selling you the same 6 games over and over again. The rest of the industry has been selling the same games from 10 years ago with fancier graphics and more DLC
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Jun 8, 2020 05:30
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One of the things about dark souls being hard was also the original dark souls being a sleeper hit while also requiring more care and attention than sleepwalking your way through games. Most boss fights aren't anything like kaizo Mario world or other pain Olympics games like that, but the bosses require patience and learning. There's also other things like mimics and sen's fortress where you don't pay attention and the next thing you know a giant blade knocks you off a walk way, or a boulder flattens you, or you didn't check both corridors for lizard men and they sneak up on you. It's more patience and attention than straight difficulty.
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Jun 8, 2020 05:39
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Bruegels Fuckbooks posted:I had a drinking buddy who lived next to a bar who mentioned he was getting stuck on some end game Dark Souls 3 bosses - e.g. the dancer, nameless king. I never played the game before going over to his place but he did have weed. Anyway I beat those bosses for him (in three different sessions) just picking the game up and that's how I beat Dark Souls 3 - I wouldn't say the game is a push-over, as people generally don't give you free drugs to beat easy games, but I was honestly expecting a lot worse. There just needs to be a Kaizo-tier Dark Souls game. Dark Souls isn't so bad if you're already comfortable dealing with a character in 3D space and are reactive to telegraphs, and increasing HP/damage from bosses doesn't make them functionally much harder since all can be beaten "flawlessy" even with a naked character. Can y'all think of any harder mainstream game? For the most part I think most developers have something they're more interested than "difficulty," especially ones trying to make products with broad appeal.
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Jun 8, 2020 05:42
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monster hunter maybe. but instead of YOU DIED and losing all your exp, you get rolled away on a cart by some cats (or dogs if u are playing on pc and have the mod), and when you run out of retries your man makes this melodramatic anguished pose and goes home. the way it's presented has a lot to do with the perception of it.
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Jun 8, 2020 06:09
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Khanstant posted:There just needs to be a Kaizo-tier Dark Souls game. Dark Souls isn't so bad if you're already comfortable dealing with a character in 3D space and are reactive to telegraphs, and increasing HP/damage from bosses doesn't make them functionally much harder since all can be beaten "flawlessy" even with a naked character. Ninja Gaiden on Xbox was ridiculous. I think the Monster Hunter games are harder than Dark Souls. I havent played World but I had a really hard time with the older ones.
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Jun 8, 2020 06:10
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Khanstant posted:
Nah I would say there's plenty of video games that are legit hard that you don't see brought up nearly as much as that series. Like even some old school megaman stuff probably requires tighter timing and muscle memory because the game didn't have to cushion anything for 3d graphics or a 3d world. The LP I mentioned wasn't a "pro gamer" just some LP crew on our forums, and they went into it blind and straight up didn't bother with all the difficult mechanics of the game because they could slowly out-stat things through attrition. I referenced parrying because it became an ongoing joke of the series, the assumption was always that this next mob/area/blah would surely force him to play better because he'd lose if he didn't, but he'd already have had such upgraded poo poo by that point that he could still just keep facetanking it. As an easy modern example you could just look at basically any number of indie roguelikes, they span like infinite genres but generally are all way "harder" to reach a true end because there's no (reasonably accessible) mechanic to just let you grind and then win for free. You don't even really have to be going that hard out of your way in the DS to do it, the games are well balanced to the point that the worse you play the more time you'll spend on areas and the more you'll end up compensating with raw stats without making you really feel like you're just powerleveling. e: to be clear I'm not saying they're bad games I'm just directly addressing the whole reputation they have for being the true difficulty of gaming people need to cut their teeth on. Straight up anyone can slowly fumble their way through them if they wanted to. ArbitraryC fucked around with this message at 06:34 on Jun 8, 2020 |
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Jun 8, 2020 06:30
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Sekiro is hard. I've played and not finished 3 games this year. Sekiro: got to SSI and eventually burned out. Hollow Knight: got to true end boss after having seen it on YT and never tried because I just couldn't be bothered. SM3dW: 100% up to the final level. I could probably cheese it w/ Peach and the tanooki but again, I just didn't want to spend the time at that point. I have no point other than I am ashamed that I didn't finish these 3 crushingly difficult challenges. I've considered just sitting down and knocking all 3 out in a day or two at some point. Sekira is the only one that really bothers me, though. I tried and tried and tried on that one. I've finished battletoads and mike tyson. Pretty sure SSI is the hardest video game challenge I've ever faced.
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Jun 8, 2020 07:06
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The White Dragon posted:monster hunter maybe. but instead of YOU DIED and losing all your exp, you get rolled away on a cart by some cats (or dogs if u are playing on pc and have the mod), and when you run out of retries your man makes this melodramatic anguished pose and goes home.
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Jun 8, 2020 08:19
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I'm still waiting for a game that says "Lol U died, bitch"
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Jun 8, 2020 08:44
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Khanstant posted:
Difficulty is overrated. As I see it used, difficulty is the skill floor. What I really want from a game is engaging gameplay with a high skill ceiling. I know they aren't everyones cup of tea, but that's why I like platformers so much. In a platformer with great controls and level design you can always be getting better. Like I've been playing celeste regularly for two and a half years and I'm still improving in satisfying ways. The much maligned sonic 1-3 trilogy also are great for this. it does seem like dark souls also has this feature - as mentioned you can beat dark souls with graceless brute force but also you can challenge yourself to refine your gameplay almost endlessly
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Jun 8, 2020 11:52
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- hi
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The White Dragon posted:monster hunter maybe. but instead of YOU DIED and losing all your exp, you get rolled away on a cart by some cats (or dogs if u are playing on pc and have the mod), and when you run out of retries your man makes this melodramatic anguished pose and goes home. 
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Jun 8, 2020 12:12
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Ocean Book posted:Difficulty is overrated. As I see it used, difficulty is the skill floor. What I really want from a game is engaging gameplay with a high skill ceiling. This is why Hollow Knight is so good, the skill ceiling is very high but you can definitely beat the game without getting anywhere near that point. Also a platformer
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Jun 8, 2020 12:26
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Difficulty is good when its mixed with very consistent and polished gameplay. Dark souls and Bloodborne are hard but they are also very consistent and predictable, if you learn the game's systems and what's expected of you and how situations will react to you, you can manage them in a very precise way and make things a lot easier for you. I don't think anybody will say that Sekiro is easy though. Its difficult and expects quite a lot from you physically. It was cathartic to hear my brother raging in the other room while fighting the giant monkey for the past two days. That monkey is harder than anything in the souls series.
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Jun 8, 2020 12:28
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There's reasons platformers are so popular with speedrunners, modders and such, they're fun to play, fun to watch, and leave lots of room for optimisation and trying weird things. Nintendo's idea with the Mario games was always to make them games you could play however you want. There's secrets, warp zones, hidden coins and powerups, and in Odyssey they even put piles of coins in places they had no idea if players would be able to even reach, just in case.
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Jun 8, 2020 12:31
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i played a lot of ninja gaiden on xbox, it was a cool game. my favorite thing to do in that game was to go into the 100 enemy rush room and just beat them with really understated fighting techniques, like no flying swallows and instead just use single shuriken throws and face kicks. it felt more like you were controlling a human being rather than a superpowered monster
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Jun 8, 2020 12:34
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Shibawanko posted:i played a lot of ninja gaiden on xbox, it was a cool game. my favorite thing to do in that game was to go into the 100 enemy rush room and just beat them with really understated fighting techniques, like no flying swallows and instead just use single shuriken throws and face kicks. it felt more like you were controlling a human being rather than a superpowered monster https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQjzFt8Sqpk
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Jun 8, 2020 13:01
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Caesar Saladin posted:Difficulty is good when its mixed with very consistent and polished gameplay. Dark souls and Bloodborne are hard but they are also very consistent and predictable, if you learn the game's systems and what's expected of you and how situations will react to you, you can manage them in a very precise way and make things a lot easier for you. This. Admittedly the only soulslike I've played is the two Surge games, but while they're tough, they are FAIR. 99% of the time when I die it's because I've hosed up, either in execution or by deciding to do something stupid/overreaching in terms of risk vs. reward. I know the 'git good' catchphrase carries a lot of unpleasant nerd gatekeeper bullshit along with it, but there is a kernel of truth there. Once it clicks for you, all of a sudden you start performing at an incredibly higher level. The Surge 2 has those statues mid-game that basically force you to learn how to parry well, and the minute it clicked not only did these insurmountable enemies suddenly become almost trivialised, but options for dealing with every enemy I'd faced up to this point suddenly opened up.
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Jun 8, 2020 13:27
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There's quite a few action games with specific enemies or bosses that basically force you to learn a particular mechanic.
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Jun 8, 2020 13:29
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I definitely feel like a well designed action game should have a boss that actually forces you to engage with the mechanics instead of just mashing your face, like a skill check to see if you're actually playing the game properly instead of just loving around.
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Jun 8, 2020 13:44
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Too many action games take forever to teach you all the things that are in it and just kinda swing from new mechanic/weapon to the next, having the player get enjoyment from the novelty of a new tool, instead of presenting encounters that feel dynamic so you can have fun just playing with the tools you're given and finding new ways to use them. Instead of having you derive fun from becoming increasingly familiar with what you've got and exploring the depth that those can provide, the game is over soon after you've got the last new tools. It's rear end
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Jun 8, 2020 14:14
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signalnoise posted:Too many action games take forever to teach you all the things that are in it and just kinda swing from new mechanic/weapon to the next, having the player get enjoyment from the novelty of a new tool, instead of presenting encounters that feel dynamic so you can have fun just playing with the tools you're given and finding new ways to use them. Instead of having you derive fun from becoming increasingly familiar with what you've got and exploring the depth that those can provide, the game is over soon after you've got the last new tools. It's rear end Yeah, I agree. Dark Souls has actually ruined a lot of games for me because the wireframe behind most AAA games is just so apparent now and they're more difficult to enjoy. It's like the gaming equivalent of when you take a film class and start noticing all the strings and glue for a while. The flip side of that is you recognise good craft when you see it.
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Jun 8, 2020 14:51
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Disco Pope posted:Yeah, I agree. Dark Souls has actually ruined a lot of games for me because the wireframe behind most AAA games is just so apparent now and they're more difficult to enjoy. It's like the gaming equivalent of when you take a film class and start noticing all the strings and glue for a while. The flip side of that is you recognise good craft when you see it. The string noticer
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Jun 8, 2020 14:57
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Kung Fu, for NES, owns for the same reason that GOLF, for NES, owns: good simple sound design and mechanics, gameplay is immediately satisfying and perfect for letting off steam
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Jun 8, 2020 15:02
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Shibawanko posted:Kung Fu, for NES, owns for the same reason that GOLF, for NES, owns: good simple sound design and mechanics, gameplay is immediately satisfying and perfect for letting off steam this is what i enjoy most about classic games. no cut scenes or tutorials or other times wasting bullshit, just hit start and your kung fu kicking
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Jun 8, 2020 15:11
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Games like Dark Souls never resonated with me, most likely because I'm an old fogey with little time on my hands to replay some section of a game over and over again. That sort of tedious exercise was easier to stomach when you're a young lad with no real responsibilities, but a deep investment into a video game at this stage in life comes at a price I'm not willing to pay anymore. It's easier to not finish games these days because if all you're rewarded with for sinking 50-100 hours into a game is a congratulation message or some kind of hidden cinematic then you can simply replicate the same result by watching a youtube recording and go about your day. Folks can shout back the typical phrase of "Git gud!" but they rarely are able to answer the question of "Why bother?"
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Jun 8, 2020 15:25
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G-III posted:Folks can shout back the typical phrase of "Git gud!" but they rarely are able to answer the question of "Why bother?"  
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Jun 8, 2020 15:31
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Hollow Knight is an intriguing one, I certainly liked it enough to play for about 5 hours or so but sometime made me burn out on it and never want to come back, I felt it could have maybe been better directed
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Jun 8, 2020 15:32
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Yes the unanswerable philosophical question "why play a video game instead of watching the end on YouTube" lmao.
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Jun 8, 2020 15:33
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That's usually said when people are complaining about the difficulty. If it's just not for you that's fine, nobody cares or will badger you about it, granpa.
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Jun 8, 2020 15:33
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Grandpa, I just want to tell you that I am not pwnd.
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Jun 8, 2020 15:34
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G-III posted:Games like Dark Souls never resonated with me, most likely because I'm an old fogey with little time on my hands to replay some section of a game over and over again. That sort of tedious exercise was easier to stomach when you're a young lad with no real responsibilities, but a deep investment into a video game at this stage in life comes at a price I'm not willing to pay anymore. if you were good at games in the first place they would be fun and it wouldn't take that long. Maybe the problem is not with the games, but with your badness people actually like those games because they're fun, not because they are hard or tedious
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Jun 8, 2020 15:34
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRXxABnBoY8&t=96s
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Jun 8, 2020 15:36
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Are you ok dude?
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Jun 8, 2020 15:36
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JollyBoyJohn posted:Hollow Knight is an intriguing one, I certainly liked it enough to play for about 5 hours or so but sometime made me burn out on it and never want to come back, I felt it could have maybe been better directed i finally fired up hollow knight the other day for the first time after owning it from some kind of sale for probably over a year and 1) it was much prettier than i expected, honestly and 2) other than how pretty it was, it was very much a game that exists. i mean, nothing particularly drew me in or made me want to fire it up again to keep exploring, but it didn't seem bad or anything.
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Jun 8, 2020 18:11
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I'm also giving Hollow Knight a shot again and it runs so much better for my PC then since launch, I guess they patched it a lot over the years. It's a very beautiful game but they should have given the dash way earlier. I like the focus on exploration, it reminds me of a less cryptic La-Mulana. It's the kind of game you've got to give all your attention to over a short period of time or you're going to end up getting lost all over again. Kinda hard to balance with RL family. One day I'll be able to get into La-Mulana 2 again. I feel I'd have to be stuck in a bunker for a month to even give it all the attention that game needs. I finished La-Mulana 1 before I had major responsibilities. There's something about labyrinthine games that really throw me back to what a great videogame should be, a way to live impossible things.
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