|
Dawgstar posted:Am I supposed to be listening to the 'Lonely Man' theme from The Incredible Hulk TV series while reading this? 'Cause it kinda feels like I am. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr8uesBowS4
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2020 23:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 06:45 |
|
|
moths posted:This was literally the advice given in one draft of Beast. Basically you're getting a reaction, so you're GM game is good. I mean, if your DMing style is being compared unfavorably to the game line made by a rapist who has a splat of characters who's baseline description is "A bunch of people cursed to rape by a evil wizard who wasn't aware of the word's original latin origins. Also you shouldn't hold it against them when they give in to this curse and in fact applaud them for every day that goes by that they don't rape someone." maybe you're in the wrong, Mr Koebel.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2020 23:21
|
|
|
wizzardstaff posted:I can't say with 100% certainty that it's an unfortunate coincidence but that's what it looks like to me. I can't rule out the possibility that they were keeping track of this number before 2004 and that someone finagled the ordering so that the artist was assigned this card. I'm not willing to crunch the numbers to disprove that or cast it into doubt though. The post outright says that it's almost certainly a coincidence, but that it would take 10 seconds for WotC to fix it and they haven't even bothered. People have been pointing the Invoke Prejudice thing out for at least a decade and probably longer.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2020 23:27
|
|
|
Unfortunate coincidence, it can't be helped, etc. Let's just do nothing. Same old poo poo, same old bull.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2020 23:35
|
|
|
Considering that them killing their forums also killed the ability to comment/rate cards (but they haven't removed ratings from cards because that would also break something int he backend) It wouldn't surprise me if they couldn't update it at this point without causing gatherer to melt. But if that's the case just dumpster Gatherer if that's what it takes to get rid of it, it's garbage and slow and there are far better fanmade sites at this point.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2020 23:44
|
|
|
Arivia posted:ah yes, totalbiscuit, who once wished for my death because I asked that a transmisogynistic joke get removed from a video game. a fine person who must be remembered in the best of lights. Seriously, I know he died of tragic rear end cancer but why would anyone lovingly quote an overinflated gamergater especially in this context??
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2020 23:58
|
|
|
Lemon-Lime posted:The post outright says that it's almost certainly a coincidence, but that it would take 10 seconds for WotC to fix it and they haven't even bothered. Yeah, I think this is a thing. If it's a coincidence and you fix it right away, then it's a coincidence. If it's a coincidence and you refuse to spend the negligible cost of fixing it, it's not a coincidence.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2020 23:59
|
|
|
Nuns with Guns posted:Seriously, I know he died of tragic rear end cancer but why would anyone lovingly quote an overinflated gamergater especially in this context?? They were old friends from the StarCraft 2 casting scene, and JP appears to have a massive blind spot when it comes to his friends
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 00:01
|
|
|
Whybird posted:Yeah, I think this is a thing. If it's a coincidence and you fix it right away, then it's a coincidence. If it's a coincidence and you refuse to spend the negligible cost of fixing it, it's not a coincidence. much like RADIUM code, you never know if that could be load-bearing coincidental racism assuming its coded badly enough which isn't a terrible assumption here
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 00:04
|
|
|
It's been known forever that the artist was a racist piece of poo poo and that Invoke Prejudice is a hilariously yikes piece of art even without knowing that context. And the incredibly unfortunate Gatherer number has been commented on from time to time in the MTG threads, probably for a decade or more at this point; every so often it would come up and everyone would  at how hilariously unfortunate it was and that would be that. But I think this is the first time I've seen anyone unironically suggesting that it might not be a coincidence, which, uh, really seems like unnecessarily getting out over your skis.It'd be pretty straightforward (if a bit time-consuming) to get evidence for it not being a coincidence. Just comb through the previous 1487 cards to see if there are any cases where the expected set/alphabetical ordering seems to have been tampered with.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 00:17
|
|
|
JerryLee posted:It's been known forever that the artist was a racist piece of poo poo and that Invoke Prejudice is a hilariously yikes piece of art even without knowing that context. And the incredibly unfortunate Gatherer number has been commented on from time to time in the MTG threads, probably for a decade or more at this point; every so often it would come up and everyone would I think part of the thing is that if you're not familiar with magic design/infrastructure it doesn't seem like a big deal to change, and that the coincidence/intentional factor doesn't matter, because you can just change that one card and everything's fine. If you ARE familiar with how long Gatherer's been around, and how card numbering works in Magic, you realize that changing this one card would mean breaking a lot of links across the Internet that have been there for like fifteen years. Because you can't just move Invoke Prejudice, you'd have to move all of Legends, and that just leaves a bunch of gaps and problems. e: your other option is to move invoke prejudice and do a hard redirect, in which case you've probably introduced a new kludge to the database and software and it STILL gets linked to when someone asks for card 1488, it just doesn't show it as the record in the end. (It'd be in the late 40000s, instead.) e2: I just did some digging, and if it wasn't coincidental, it took a lot of setup. Legends falls where it should (starting at card 1398, since 1-1397 are previous sets), and then progressing from there. The numbering for these sets, which are so early they don't have card numbers, doesn't seem to be the same as it is for later card numbering. It seems to go artifact-BUGRW (so alphabetically, when usually Magic goes WUBRG around its symbol)-multicolor-land. In this setup, Invoke Prejudice does correctly fall at 1488. So setting it up to fall at 1488 required organizing all of the pre-card number sets in exactly the right order so the 91st card of Legends would be Invoke Prejudice. (Weird side fact, Gatherer doesn't respect either collector number OR alphabet for Exodus [the first set with collector numbers] so I genuinely have no idea what the numbering for that is. It got fixed at some point before Ikoria, though.) Arivia fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Jun 9, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 00:23
|
|
|
I mean. I think it would be worth the effort to change if it were shown that it was actually someone deliberately setting up the database to do a racism. That would be worth fixing, if only to repudiate whoever did it that way with that intent.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 00:34
|
|
|
There are non-sequential entries in the database indicating that numbers can be removed or at least hidden. Using for instance 9000 will just dump you back to the gatherer search page. Though as far as I can tell there is no easily accessible way to just display cards by multiverse id.
Terrible Opinions fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Jun 9, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 00:46
|
|
|
Terrible Opinions posted:There are non-sequential entries in the database indicating that numbers can be removed or at least hidden. Using for instance 9000 will just dump you back to the gatherer search page. Though as far as I can tell there is no easily accessible way to just display cards by multiverse id. yeah that's how I noticed Exodus being really weird, because card 2 was not the second card numbered in the set. Also if they can hide things hiding Invoke Prejudice as 1488 is probably a good idea then. It'll still break links, but it's not like it's referenced a lot except as a joke: https://edhrec.com/cards/invoke-prejudice (for those of you who aren't mtg fans, it is played vanishingly tiny amounts of time, even in the very casual play all the cards ever that vaguely match your theme format.)
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 00:51
|
|
|
Nuns with Guns posted:Seriously, I know he died of tragic rear end cancer but why would anyone lovingly quote an overinflated gamergater especially in this context?? Bain's cult of personality always mystified me.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 00:56
|
|
|
Dawgstar posted:Bain's cult of personality always mystified me. I mean just look at my rapsheet, people actually really liked him if they didn't know better
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 00:57
|
|
|
PinheadSlim posted:He really does go on forever about how hard this was for him, and only glances over how uncomfortable he might've made other people. The former gets several large paragraphs while the latter gets about 1 little one. Holy poo poo did he slide real quick into that "I'm the real victim" bullcrap. Good riddance!
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 01:00
|
|
|
Wizards: We are not racist Also wizards: We are not made of money and time Still wizards: That we can spend against racism
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 01:07
|
|
|
Crossposting this from the boardgame thread since it's also probably relevant here:GrandpaPants posted:To the surprise of no one, the people behind CAH are huge pieces of poo poo:
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 01:14
|
|
|
The people who made Cards Against Humanity being huge pieces of poo poo is super not surprising. I never really got why people loves that game so much. It’s just offensive Apples to Apples! Just play Apples to Apples
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 01:26
|
|
|
thetoughestbean posted:The people who made Cards Against Humanity being huge pieces of poo poo is super not surprising. You've answered your own question. People like it because it's offensive, and many people mistake being offensive for being funny or otherwise having a personality.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 01:36
|
|
|
This stuff with Koebel has put a point on something that's been nagging me in the back of my head for a few years now. It seems pretty obvious from the replies he's getting that he'd have a supportive, if smaller, audience if he just started up a new RP stream show today. I think it goes without saying that he'd also have quite a few detractors showing up in his chat and tweets and whatnot but that'd only stop him if he allowed them to stop him. He'd (rightly) have a hard time finding sponsors or brand deals but he'd still be getting cash from Twitch via subscriptions and tips. So, my takeaway is that it seems like 'cancel culture' exists but it's largely toothless and ineffective unless someone allows themselves to be cancelled, no?
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 01:37
|
|
|
"Cancel culture" is just what the right calls it when people on the left don't like something, out of the obvious-case-of-projection belief that it's impossible to actually genuinely believe in the social standards that you claim to hold.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 01:40
|
|
|
e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Jul 22, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 01:43
|
|
|
He could get some money from patreon, to be sure. But as you said he wouldn't be able to get many sponsors and the ones he would be able to get will be hounded by people who "won't let their anger be tempered by rationality". The truth is that he could have probably come out of this alright, he was a big enough name in the right circles, but it would require him to actually be contrite and not trying to spin this as him being unfairly maligned for one fuckup. That is why people aren't forgiving him and the fact that he doesn't get it is why it's not going away.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 01:48
|
|
|
Kurieg posted:He could get some money from patreon, to be sure. But as you said he wouldn't be able to get many sponsors and the ones he would be able to get will be hounded by people who "won't let their anger be tempered by rationality". Trying to sneak in under something actually important like BLM didn't help either.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 02:21
|
|
|
BattleMaster posted:but he died! that means you can never ever say anything bad about him now!!! RIP John Bain, whose posts were as malignant as his liver  Absurd Alhazred posted:It turns out that if you amass enough of an audience you can't really get canceled. Doubly so if you're a white man. And if it comes to it, you can always just rename yourself to The Censored Gamer and pivot to cranking out videos about ethics in games journalism for chuds 
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 03:09
|
|
|
BlackIronHeart posted:This stuff with Koebel has put a point on something that's been nagging me in the back of my head for a few years now. It seems pretty obvious from the replies he's getting that he'd have a supportive, if smaller, audience if he just started up a new RP stream show today. I think it goes without saying that he'd also have quite a few detractors showing up in his chat and tweets and whatnot but that'd only stop him if he allowed them to stop him. He'd (rightly) have a hard time finding sponsors or brand deals but he'd still be getting cash from Twitch via subscriptions and tips. *waves at nearly every instance of someone being "cancelled" ever* yes. The only part of Koebel's (whom I was a huge fan of and credit with a lot of my resurgence of interest in RPGs) response that I've respected is the part where he's not immediately trying to build that audience, but I'm side-eyeing all that poo poo at the end (also all of the poo poo in the beginning and middle because what a clusterfuck of a post that was) because it looks a lot like trying to submarine his way back into relevance on a slightly-delayed timeline.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 06:09
|
|
|
BlackIronHeart posted:This stuff with Koebel has put a point on something that's been nagging me in the back of my head for a few years now. It seems pretty obvious from the replies he's getting that he'd have a supportive, if smaller, audience if he just started up a new RP stream show today. I think it goes without saying that he'd also have quite a few detractors showing up in his chat and tweets and whatnot but that'd only stop him if he allowed them to stop him. He'd (rightly) have a hard time finding sponsors or brand deals but he'd still be getting cash from Twitch via subscriptions and tips. "cancel culture" is really just another way to say "boycott", but you're not wrong that boycotts can be ineffective if there are enough people willing to violate the boycott to allow the bad behavior to continue
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 06:11
|
|
|
JerryLee posted:It's been known forever that the artist was a racist piece of poo poo and that Invoke Prejudice is a hilariously yikes piece of art even without knowing that context. And the incredibly unfortunate Gatherer number has been commented on from time to time in the MTG threads, probably for a decade or more at this point; every so often it would come up and everyone would I didn't have the patience to do that, but I did spend a few minutes checking other memey numbers to see if anything shook out. And not, really. 666 is Lich, 420 is Siren's Call, which I guess is sort of a joke based on the art. But that's about it. 1138 is a hive, which I guess if you wanted to draw a tortured pointless line to a "wretched hive of scum and villainy" you could.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 06:48
|
|
|
theironjef posted:I didn't have the patience to do that, but I did spend a few minutes checking other memey numbers to see if anything shook out. And not, really. 666 is Lich, 420 is Siren's Call, which I guess is sort of a joke based on the art. But that's about it. 1138 is a hive, which I guess if you wanted to draw a tortured pointless line to a "wretched hive of scum and villainy" you could.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 06:51
|
|
|
I don't know what that meme is, but the card is Red Elemental Blast.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 06:55
|
|
|
1312 is ACAB
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 07:01
|
|
|
FWIW on the Magic card front, it seems really unlikely that any of these early card numbers were intentional. These numbers were not used for anything, as far as anyone has ever said, until all the cards were entered into the Gatherer database, which happened sometime around 2004. Before that, Magic card sets lived in individual files. Now, Wizards could of course be lying about this. But people have double checked, and those early cards are in the database in a sensible order: they're by color then alphabetical by set, which is how modern Magic collector numbers are assigned. (Those collector numbers started being used in the late 90's, so it makes sense that when Gatherer needed to give every card a numeric ID, they ordered older sets in that order.) In addition, all the testimony we have, including from people who left the company, is that the art in those days was the Wild West - no real art briefs, they just sent the name of the card to the artist, who drew whatever, and then that was the card art. Invoke Prejudice is an unfortunate card name, and the mechanic referring to colors is kind of unfortunately spot on, but the art is what really makes it unacceptable. Otherwise I doubt they'd print it today, but it wouldn't be nearly as bad as it is. The only thing that IMO is suspicious is that they got a neo-Nazi to illustrate the card Invoke Prejudice, but that's the only piece he ever did for them that's at all questionable, and they stopped using him within 2 years when his neo-Nazi stuff came to light. So maybe the person responsible for the art knew and made it happen, but you'd think then they'd have kept doing it until they got caught or something. Regardless, even if someone intentionally made that card to be racist, in order to ensue that it ended up as #1488, it'd have to be a vast conspiracy, including everyone involved in the database stuff lying about when things got internal IDs, and the person assigning card names and deciding what cards were in the set (not the same person as the art director) massaging the whole set to make that card land at exactly that spot in the sequence. That seems completely unbelievable to me. That said, I still think it's speaks poorly of them that a) the card is still legal in some formats, b) you can look it up and there's no note that it doesn't represent the company's views, and c) it still has #1488 in Gatherer. I spend a lot of time trying to cultivate open and accepting gaming spaces, and that card showing up does the opposite of that. Sure it's an old and obscure card, but if you had the art on a playmat you'd be in violation of tournament rules (USC Major), it's completely legal to just put this thing on the table in Commander, and the people who are going to be willing to do that are the ones you least want to be allowed to - generally either bigots or people who really don't think about the implications of their "jokes." (I guess it's also a kind of annoying prison card, but that's also not great behavior, and it's not so good that many folks are likely to spend USD $250 on it.) It's possible that their data system is so messed up they can't fix the collector number without breaking anything. But we know they can update card text and card images, because they do oracle text updates all the time - the official text on cards that old rarely has any relationship to what's printed on the card. And they can ban cards. It'd be easy to make sure this card isn't legal in any formats, and once you do that, you can replace the rules text with a statement about the origin of the card and how it doesn't represent the company and community. There's really not much reason they shouldn't do that.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 07:16
|
|
|
You don't need a vast conspiracy, you just need some opportunistic assholes slipping things by because there's never going to be enough scrutiny especially when almost everyone involved is white. And I doubt there's a serious angle of "there's a white supremacy conspiracy in wizards, this card is proof of it". It's more that this card with its art, and the number, and their reluctance to do anything about it is just another stamp of white supremacy on the company, its culture, and society at large. Like statues and streets named after CSA figures, it's a lasting legacy of white supremacy that sticks around because it can be laughably easy to get this poo poo past if there's not enough scrutiny or reflection on the part of the majority of society. That it's still here in 2020 just proves that as woke as companies pretend to be, they don't really care if they don't think they can get good PR or a boost to sales from it. The moral calculus always comes second, or third, or worse behind making money, making more money, and making more money in the future. Could something be done about it? Yeah. It would take a will to do something that takes more than zero effort and that will is never there in corporate unless the number can go up because of it. Time and time again we've seen that just leaving a bunch of white people alone in a room, a building, a corporation, etc. just leads to oopsies racisms because some actual rear end in a top hat has malicious intent and no one else wants to stand out or be the killjoy. Come on, he's just having fun. Come on, it's heritage not hate. Come on, just chill. We don't need excuses or explanations for how it happened. It's been here for decades and leaving it be is just another reminder of white supremacy. It's as much a cultural disease as it is individuals. It's loving painful to acknowledge that you live in a world where our predecessors left us a cancerous tumor of problems but if we just let it slip and keep letting it slip, we're not any better than they were as we pass it onto our collective descendants.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 07:33
|
|
|
Ultiville posted:Regardless, even if someone intentionally made that card to be racist, in order to ensue that it ended up as #1488, it'd have to be a vast conspiracy, including everyone involved in the database stuff lying about when things got internal IDs, and the person assigning card names and deciding what cards were in the set (not the same person as the art director) massaging the whole set to make that card land at exactly that spot in the sequence. That seems completely unbelievable to me. Leaving aside the question of how vast, or not, the conspiracy would need to be, there's also the fact that you'd need to start your long con in 1993 or earlier setting things up for a nazi reference in a database that would literally not exist for over a decade. You'd have to start that early because in order for Invoke Prejudice to be exactly 1488, there have to be precisely 1487 cards coming before it, so you'd need control over not just the creation of the card Invoke Prejudice and its place in the list of Legends cards, but all the sets before as well. Literally, if Volcanic Island hadn't been erroneously left off the Alpha print sheet, Invoke Prejudice would be 1489 under this system. I guess if one were already down this particular network of rabbit holes, one could argue that this, too, were part of the long game... theironjef posted:I don't know what that meme is, but the card is Red Elemental Blast. Darksaber posted:1312 is ACAB Destroys target blue permanent; checks out.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 08:49
|
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:"cancel culture" is really just another way to say "boycott", but you're not wrong that boycotts can be ineffective if there are enough people willing to violate the boycott to allow the bad behavior to continue There's a level of social ostracizing and denounciation you get with cancelling within some communities that really takes cancelling far beyond mere boycotts. Adam Whatshisname is presumably a fairly well off guy in a fairly secure position, but where cancelling is felt the strongest, where it thrives as a destructive practice, is in communities of people who are so vulnerable that the public denunciation strips them of their last refuge of safety. When you have a community like that and cancelling becomes a cultural practice, it strips people of their sense of safety: They're aware that the support they receive from "their" community is conditional and at other people's whims. Like, yeah, lots of people complain themselves into standup comedy shows about how "cancel culture" is silencing them, but it's a real thing that harms a lot of people, so I don't think it's something we should just dismiss.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 16:49
|
|
|
It's also unfortunately the only tool we have against rapists because the justice system does not work.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 16:59
|
|
|
LatwPIAT posted:There's a level of social ostracizing and denounciation you get with cancelling within some communities that really takes cancelling far beyond mere boycotts. Adam Whatshisname is presumably a fairly well off guy in a fairly secure position, but where cancelling is felt the strongest, where it thrives as a destructive practice, is in communities of people who are so vulnerable that the public denunciation strips them of their last refuge of safety. When you have a community like that and cancelling becomes a cultural practice, it strips people of their sense of safety: They're aware that the support they receive from "their" community is conditional and at other people's whims. Agreed, and it's a fraught conversation because there's a bunch of shitheads who want to use the discussion to complain about experiencing consequences for abhorrent behavior. But I suspect that anybody who has hung out in small insular communities of people with relatively few options can think of a situation or two where the rumor mill or interpersonal drama has blown up with consequences that they wouldn't necessarily support.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 17:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 06:45 |
|
|
LatwPIAT posted:There's a level of social ostracizing and denounciation you get with cancelling within some communities that really takes cancelling far beyond mere boycotts. Adam Whatshisname is presumably a fairly well off guy in a fairly secure position, but where cancelling is felt the strongest, where it thrives as a destructive practice, is in communities of people who are so vulnerable that the public denunciation strips them of their last refuge of safety. When you have a community like that and cancelling becomes a cultural practice, it strips people of their sense of safety: They're aware that the support they receive from "their" community is conditional and at other people's whims. The real issue is that the term cancel culture was appropriated from various online subcultures that relied on their communities and used to describe people who are never in a million years going to be cancelled in the original sense because they're fully enfranchised by regular society. There was a point where cancel culture was primarily about the dangers of misreporting someone as a rapist because they were into 50 Shades of Grey or something rather than about actual sex offenders just getting away with it because they were film stars.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2020 19:11
|
|
