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Stux posted:no, its a perfectly viable approach. its using the fact that a game is inherently an audience participating medium to help further its points. making a game that is purposefully player hostile either through mechanics or story or both is a useful and important tool. in spec ops the character you are controlling is going to take that action because that is their character and motivation in that moment, you are not the character. you are the audience. your choice is if you want to follow this characters story now that he is making an awful choice, and because its a game and not a film the fact that you while seperate are an active participant adds further weight to it. Wanting to see how a story ends isn't the endorsement the writers are trying to say it is.
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Jun 10, 2020 16:28
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Zeta Acosta posted:fun and engaging arent the same. a broken piece of poo poo like vtmrb was totally unplayable on release but the story, characters and setting were good enough that the game baceme a cult classic. This is very true. I guess what I'm saying is that media can be engaging without needing to be fun or aiming to create positive emotions. There are a whole lot of ways media can get its hooks into the audience and be something they want to engage with for the work's duration. On the "broken game that people still found very engaging" front, I'll also add Fallout: New Vegas, especially the console versions that you can't mod the brokenness out of but plenty of people still sunk countless hours into.
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Jun 10, 2020 16:34
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Harrow posted:I should also point out that my statements about what the game is trying to do (and games in general not needing to be fun) are in no way a defense of the way Naughty Dog went about making the game. Obviously, forcing your employees to watch horrific things and recreate them is an extremely lovely thing to do and Druckmann and the rest of the Naughty Dog leadership should be condemned for that and not be so loving proud of it. But that's a separate conversation from "is the game automatically bad because of its themes." i think the development of the game sounds bad, the story from the leaks sounds bad, and the way they've described their gameplay innovations sounds bad. it all sounds bad. i don't care about depictions of violence in games as much as i care about their presentation. Mortal Kombat's pretty gnarly but it's not presenting the gruesome x-ray moves as being the video game equivalent of Citizen Kane's camera work
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Jun 10, 2020 16:36
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dogstile posted:Wanting to see how a story ends isn't the endorsement the writers are trying to say it is. i mean, it really is. if theyve written a story so engaging you are going through the awful stuff in it to see how it ends thats basically as successful as a story can be. grieving for Gandalf posted:i think the development of the game sounds bad, the story from the leaks sounds bad, and the way they've described their gameplay innovations sounds bad. it all sounds bad. i don't care about depictions of violence in games as much as i care about their presentation. Mortal Kombat's pretty gnarly but it's not presenting the gruesome x-ray moves as being the video game equivalent of Citizen Kane's camera work MK is worse to me, because its extremely detailed violence completely divorced from anything and it grosses me out. but that also doesnt mean i think mortal kombat shouldnt exist im just not going to play it.
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Jun 10, 2020 16:44
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Stux posted:i mean, it really is. if theyve written a story so engaging you are going through the awful stuff in it to see how it ends thats basically as successful as a story can be. You're telling me that someone going through a game going "no, surely this gets better" and then posting about it (checking date here) 8 years later because no, it was in fact dumb, contrived bullshit is successful? Ok dude, you do you, we clearly measure success differently.
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Jun 10, 2020 16:48
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if it wasnt engaging you at all you wouldnt finish the game or still be discussing it 8 years later
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Jun 10, 2020 16:54
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grieving for Gandalf posted:i think the development of the game sounds bad, the story from the leaks sounds bad, and the way they've described their gameplay innovations sounds bad. it all sounds bad. i don't care about depictions of violence in games as much as i care about their presentation. Mortal Kombat's pretty gnarly but it's not presenting the gruesome x-ray moves as being the video game equivalent of Citizen Kane's camera work I mean, like I've said, nobody has to like what they're making or want to engage with it. I sure don't want to play it any time soon. I'm mostly just talking in terms of this type of game being a valid thing to try to make. I can't at all speak to how successful it is--lots of things have sounded lovely in leaks and ended up pretty good, and also lots of things with potential to be good have been lovely--I'm just saying that I don't think what it's trying to do is necessarily invalid or automatically bad. I guess what I'm saying is that I can't at all say whether The Last of Us Part II, a specific video game, will be any good, but that I think it isn't automatically bad because of the way it appears to depict violence while also condemning it. Also this reminded me of an essay I wrote years ago about how "the Citizen Kane of video games" doesn't actually make sense as a statement because it's often used with a gross misunderstanding of what makes Citizen Kane actually important (the camera work being among it).
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Jun 10, 2020 16:55
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Like i said, i paid money for it, i wanted to see if it was good. It was not in fact, good. Being bad enough to be the first thing to come to mind when talking about "stupid writing decisions in videogames" is not an achievement to be proud of. Imagine making this argument about the super mario brothers movie, a film that I still make fun of because it was so bad. "No dude, its a good thing you're still telling people its awful".
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Jun 10, 2020 16:58
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dogstile posted:Like i said, i paid money for it, i wanted to see if it was good. It was not in fact, good. it's "but you live in a society" but for when you tell people video games they like are bad
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Jun 10, 2020 17:00
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so many repetitive words being spilled to defend the artistic integrity of a 'maybe WE'RE the walking dead' level of story
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Jun 10, 2020 17:03
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If you need a video game to tell you that violence is bad I think you hosed up somewhere
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Jun 10, 2020 17:03
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If we're gonna decry a story for covering a theme that's been done before then I'm afraid we're just going to have to give up on stories altogether Mostly I just think a lot of people are extrapolating from "I don't think TLoU2 will be good" to get to some grand pronouncements about what a video game is and what games should ever try to do or be as a blanket statement and that rubs me the wrong way.
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Jun 10, 2020 17:08
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dogstile posted:Like i said, i paid money for it, i wanted to see if it was good. It was not in fact, good. it was good however, perhaps you just didnt understand it Brother Entropy posted:so many repetitive words being spilled to defend the artistic integrity of a 'maybe WE'RE the walking dead' level of story thats all zombie stories thats why you make a zombie game/film/whatever, and its clearly a defense of the ability of something to make a point through depictions of violence and not a defense of a game that isnt out and no one has played fridge corn posted:If you need a video game to tell you that violence is bad I think you hosed up somewhere again this is putting bizarre limitations on what subjects are allowed to be explored. it is not a fundamental flaw for a piece of media to make a point about violence.
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Jun 10, 2020 17:12
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Harrow posted:Mostly I just think a lot of people are extrapolating from "I don't think TLoU2 will be good" to get to some grand pronouncements about what a video game is and what games should ever try to do or be as a blanket statement and that rubs me the wrong way. i agree, stux should stop trying to make every conversation about people not liking tlou2 into being about that
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Jun 10, 2020 17:12
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if you don't get what it is about the marketing and leaks of this game that put people off of its whole stupid angle about violence, the issue is with you, not them
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Jun 10, 2020 17:15
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Stux posted:it was good however, perhaps you just didnt understand it Every loving time. "Oh, you're just too dumb to get it".  No, I got it, I think its stupid.
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Jun 10, 2020 17:16
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Stux posted:again this is putting bizarre limitations on what subjects are allowed to be explored. it is not a fundamental flaw for a piece of media to make a point about violence. What exactly is the point that the game is trying to make about violence? That it's bad? Oh poo poo I didnt know that thank god Neil "genious" Drickmann was able to sort me out
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Jun 10, 2020 17:21
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To rephrase what I posted, what I mean is that I'm not here to defend the honor of The Last of Us Part II, a specific video game that is being marketed a certain way or was developed in a lovely way. I've just read a lot of takes that extrapolate from "boy what we're seeing from TLoU2 sounds bad" to make much more blanket statements about games and I want to argue against that. Like I don't think that a game depicting realistic, ugly violence while also putting the player in a position where causing that violence is unavoidable is necessarily doing something wrong--that tension might well be the point, or even if it isn't, it can still be worth exploring. There are ways to explore themes and ideas that don't require every aspect of a game to be in perfect harmony, and conflict between a game's ideas can be productive as much as it can be destructive to its narrative and themes. It's all down to execution and individual experiences of a work. I acknowledge that a lot of the leaks sound bad and that TLoU2 does not sound like a game I personally want to play. It's just that, independent of the execution, what it appears to be trying to do is not automatically invalid or in some way Objectively Wrong. But I'm also coming from a point of view where I don't think there should've been a sequel to The Last of Us in the first place so 
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Jun 10, 2020 17:22
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explore the darkness of the human condition with our Jak & Daxter Weapon Pack DLC
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Jun 10, 2020 17:24
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Harrow posted:To rephrase what I posted, what I mean is that I'm not here to defend the honor of The Last of Us Part II, a specific video game that is being marketed a certain way or was developed in a lovely way. I've just read a lot of takes that extrapolate from "boy what we're seeing from TLoU2 sounds bad" to make much more blanket statements about games and I want to argue against that. no one here is taking their thoughts about tlou2 (that it's bad) and extrapolating it to some kind of catch-all about all video games, they're talking about this particular bad video game. i could be wrong but i don't think anyone here has the power to affect the game developers' decisions so i think they're all safe to continue to explore whatever themes they like no matter we think
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Jun 10, 2020 17:25
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grieving for Gandalf posted:no one here is taking their thoughts about tlou2 (that it's bad) and extrapolating it to some kind of catch-all about all video games I'm not so sure about that, but maybe I'm just remembering earlier posts in this thread and those people aren't still posting in the thread, I dunno. grieving for Gandalf posted:i could be wrong but i don't think anyone here has the power to affect the game developers' decisions so i think they're all safe to continue to explore whatever themes they like no matter we think I mean, there are reasons to discuss and argue about games beyond "someone in the argument has the power to actually affect what games are made." Like I've posted a lot of long, detailed critiques of games but that doesn't mean I think anyone reading them has the power to change things based on what they read (or that they would agree with me anyway). I'm just discussing stuff. I just like to talk about games and media analysis and poo poo, I don't mean to come off like I think games are in danger as an art form or some dumb poo poo like that. Sorry if I came off that way, that wasn't my intention.
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Jun 10, 2020 17:31
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fridge corn posted:What exactly is the point that the game is trying to make about violence? That it's bad? Oh poo poo I didnt know that thank god Neil "genious" Drickmann was able to sort me out is it specifically tlou2 you feel isnt capable of making the point or do you genuinely think no game should attempt to make a point about how violence is bad
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Jun 10, 2020 17:31
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Just watch Blue Ruin instead. It's shorter than this game and will most assuredly be a better told story about misguided revenge.
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Jun 10, 2020 17:32
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you arent misremembering and everytime it gets pulled up as soon as the position is shown to be completely stupid and arbitrarily limiting someone who wasnt originally making the point will jump in to say the people saying that werent saying that.
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Jun 10, 2020 17:33
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Stux posted:is it specifically tlou2 you feel isnt capable of making the point or do you genuinely think no game should attempt to make a point about how violence is bad see harrow, it's all stux constantly trying to shift the conversation away from tlou2 whenever someone criticizes it it's like clockwork
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Jun 10, 2020 17:34
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Brother Entropy posted:see harrow, it's all stux constantly trying to shift the conversation away from tlou2 whenever someone criticizes it fridge corn posted:If you need a video game to tell you that violence is bad I think you hosed up somewhere seriously try not to make it so obvious, its on the same page. this statement is clearly extremely broad and not specifically aimed at tlou 2 at all. i am literally asking for clarification.
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Jun 10, 2020 17:35
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I mean, they're free to do all the "violence is bad" messages they want, just don't expect me to not roll my eyes when they gush about the rad execution animations and realistic blood pooling physics in interviews
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Jun 10, 2020 17:37
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Harrow posted:But I'm also coming from a point of view where I don't think there should've been a sequel to The Last of Us in the first place so Clearly, we didn't ask for this. Gabby_Jay posted:Just watch Blue Ruin instead. It's shorter than this game and will most assuredly be a better told story about misguided revenge. Ok but can I turn off my TV if I don't want the protagonist to commit heinous crimes?
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Jun 10, 2020 17:38
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CharlestonJew posted:I mean, they're free to do all the "violence is bad" messages they want, just don't expect me to not roll my eyes when they gush about the rad execution animations and realistic blood pooling physics in interviews no one will reply to this
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Jun 10, 2020 17:43
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Stux posted:is it specifically tlou2 you feel isnt capable of making the point or do you genuinely think no game should attempt to make a point about how violence is bad Both
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Jun 10, 2020 17:44
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CharlestonJew posted:I mean, they're free to do all the "violence is bad" messages they want, just don't expect me to not roll my eyes when they gush about the rad execution animations and realistic blood pooling physics in interviews This is fair, as is rolling your eyes at the same things in the multiplayer, especially if they start selling special execution animations and poo poo like that. I'm not at all here to defend the marketing. And poo poo, if the game is bad, I'll be here to make fun of it as much as anyone else.
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Jun 10, 2020 17:48
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CharlestonJew posted:I mean, they're free to do all the "violence is bad" messages they want, just don't expect me to not roll my eyes when they gush about the rad execution animations and realistic blood pooling physics in interviews i mean marketing is always trash, da proof is in da puddin. if the games bad then the games bad, but making a point about violence with violence is not fundamentally wrong. fridge corn posted:Both incorrect
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Jun 10, 2020 17:57
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Stux posted:incorrect Violence is obviously bad. It's not a point that needs to be made.
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Jun 10, 2020 18:08
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Stux posted:if it wasnt engaging you at all you wouldnt finish the game or still be discussing it 8 years later if so long term discussion is somehow a mark of success then ed wood js one of the most sucessful directors ever, because people still talk (mock) his movies seventy years later.
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Jun 10, 2020 18:13
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fridge corn posted:Violence is obviously bad. It's not a point that needs to be made. ... Have you paid attention to *waves hands at the world.* There are a lot of people who think violence is the solution to issues and is in fact Good and Cool. America right now as a country is in a genuine discussion over if the police are a Right and Necessary Thing or a group who only enforces violence and cruelty. It is absolutely something to be emphasized. LTOU2 is probably not the game to do that but treating violence as something that has consequences instead of the fun thing you do is perfectly valid and necessary.
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Jun 10, 2020 18:16
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fridge corn posted:Violence is obviously bad. It's not a point that needs to be made. It is a point that needs to be made, but in media for small children. This videogame ostensibly for adults should be able to do something more nuanced, interesting and complex.
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Jun 10, 2020 18:16
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fridge corn posted:Violence is obviously bad. It's not a point that needs to be made. then what points need to be made, what are the valid subjects? SpookyLizard posted:if so long term discussion is somehow a mark of success then ed wood js one of the most sucessful directors ever, because people still talk (mock) his movies seventy years later. if you dont think ed wood would be delighted by how long lasting an impact hes had including having an actual movie made about him then lol
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Jun 10, 2020 18:17
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SpookyLizard posted:if so long term discussion is somehow a mark of success then ed wood js one of the most sucessful directors ever, because people still talk (mock) his movies seventy years later. Ed Wood did in fact have a very significant impact on movies. There is a reason it is his films that are talked about and not the 900 other forgettable films released other years.
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Jun 10, 2020 18:17
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Hey Stux, outta curiosity, how much do you get paid for this gig, and how can I also get it? Because I'll say fuckin' anything if I get paid for it.
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Jun 10, 2020 18:25
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love to get paid to say tlou2 could very easily be garbage
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Jun 10, 2020 18:39
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