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hello, I'm a dumbass idiot who just lurks here but I have a few book questions. I'm reading shock doctorine by Naomi Klein and I just read the parts about Solidarity in Poland and the protests in Tienamen Square. it's piqued my interest in reading more on the subjects and this feels like the place to get some reading suggestions on them? I don't even know what lense to look at them through at this point. I like shock doctorine but it's kind of repetitive and sometimes it seems like Klein has an axe to grind with communism so I honestly am not sure how to feel about it long term but it's been a good introduction to Friedman and his school of freaks.
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Jun 11, 2020 03:07
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This thread had a discussion on Tiananmen maybe a year ago when hong kong popped off but I can't remember if we've ever talked about lech walesa before
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Jun 11, 2020 04:44
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Matt Zerella posted:I'm reading shock doctorine by Naomi Klein and I just read the parts about Solidarity in Poland and the protests in Tienamen Square. https://www.qiaocollective.com/resources/tiananmenreadinglist
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Jun 11, 2020 04:52
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awesome, thank you!
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Jun 11, 2020 04:56
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i am reading the kotkin stalin biography. its good except sometimes he shows his rear end in weird waysquote:“He [Lenin] was soon busy wrongly attributing the conquest of 85 percent of the globe to inexorable economic motivations” what was the motivation of imperialism then, if not economic??
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Jun 11, 2020 06:07
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Capitol Hill Erogenous Zone
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Jun 11, 2020 08:21
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Matt Zerella posted:hello, I'm a dumbass idiot who just lurks here but I have a few book questions. What do you want to know about Solidarity? I'm Polish, I know quite a bit about it but I know that stuff from like a dozen sources, a few who lived through it too.
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Jun 11, 2020 08:28
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I will say this: There's two elements to consider with Solidarity. There's the movement in 1979-1981, which was basically anarcho-syndicalist - trade and other unions coordinating direct action attacks on the regime (e; culminating in a strike that literally stopped every single workplace in the country). Polish anarchists did the underground propaganda for this, even, and while they were weary of allying with say the church to court members of a broad coalition, it was still a staunchly a socialist movement against state oppression. So you had the pope's images right next to slogans like "Proletarians of all factories unite" in red font. It was not an anti-socialist movement, it was anti-communist beaurocracy. Then, the Martial law period happened to quash the movement, and temporarily succeeded. What emerged was an even broader and galvanised coalition, but this time brought to liberalism partly under the influence of the intelligentsia (who cared less about factory conditions and more about freedom of speech) and the church (freedom of religion). Also a factor is that Wałęsa was a republican. Official programme of Solidarity in 1981 was for social ownership of means of production and against the state-ownership, which they felt was just oppression; by 1989 it had been coopted into market liberalism. I speculate perestroika is very much to blame, what with the liberalisation of market economies but also what we could simply now see was a more wealthy West. e; a book that espouses this is Inna Rzeczpospolita Jest Możliwa from Jan Sowa. I haven't personally read it but I heard a lecture about it. Here's an overview of a play about this I skimmed that seems sensible https://www.polishtheatrejournal.com/index.php/ptj/article/view/177/860 dex_sda fucked around with this message at 12:42 on Jun 11, 2020 |
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Jun 11, 2020 11:37
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https://repozytorium.amu.edu.pl/bitstream/10593/11612/1/13.Sowa.pdf here you go. word of warning, it's a work by someone who considers the Leninism part of ML mistaken, and the satellite countries of the Warsaw Pact communism in name only. dex_sda fucked around with this message at 12:15 on Jun 11, 2020 |
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Jun 11, 2020 12:12
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I'm only about a hundred pages into Blood Lies and it's already very gripping stuff. I was joking before because of how Furr gets talked about, but I wholeheartedly appreciate the recommendation now.
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Jun 11, 2020 12:51
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For a minute I thought people were talking about Blood Lands but getting autocorrected. lol didn't realize Furr, the absolute madman, actually wrote a whole book to attack Bloodlands.
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Jun 11, 2020 13:52
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dex_sda posted:social ownership of means of production and against the state-ownership, which they felt was just oppression; by 1989 it had been coopted into market liberalism. Sounds about right
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Jun 11, 2020 15:14
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mila kunis posted:Sounds about right  to be specific the state destroyed the initiative and then the 'new' solidarity was created by liberals, so not the same movement just the same name
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Jun 11, 2020 16:57
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 drat its true 😔
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Jun 12, 2020 14:48
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Jun 12, 2020 15:52
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CHAZ is the farce to the tragedy of OWS. change my mind
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Jun 12, 2020 16:10
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Autism Sneaks posted:CHAZ is the farce to the tragedy of OWS. change my mind OWS was the entire movement whereas CHAZ is a tiny slice of a currently ongoing #BLM movement. I’d also argue that any failures of organizing create a form of institutional knowledge amongst organizers that helps in doing better next time. While this of course isn’t a foolproof or particularly efficient way of teaching, it’s can still be seen as beneficial.
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Jun 12, 2020 16:25
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Autism Sneaks posted:CHAZ is the farce to the tragedy of OWS. change my mind anarchists popping up and doing Anarchist Things is just a material consequence of things getting really bad economically, getting in a tizzy about it is like getting upset at the sun rising or setting
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Jun 12, 2020 16:28
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Autism Sneaks posted:CHAZ is the farce to the tragedy of OWS. change my mind I dunno, maybe being a smug nihilist is not a particularly productive attitude. People are going to embarrass themselves plenty in the process of learning political lessons that we who have studied history understand. It's the cost of doing business, assuming we ever succeed at all: every generation that involves itself in struggle ends up reinventing a lot of wheels, and often poorly. But if you're going to reject outright the possibility that some of these people are going to learn the right lessons, why even bother calling yourself a revolutionary.
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Jun 12, 2020 16:30
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Jun 12, 2020 16:30
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Lady Militant posted:anarchists popping up and doing Anarchist Things is just a material consequence of things getting really bad economically, getting in a tizzy about it is like getting upset at the sun rising or setting This has been the core of my confusion lately, because I haven't seen anything that indicates that the CHAZ is in any way actually anarchist outside of the name implying that it is
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Jun 12, 2020 16:31
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Nineball posted:This has been the core of my confusion lately, because I haven't seen anything that indicates that the CHAZ is in any way actually anarchist outside of the name implying that it is Like with all things it’s a heavy mixture of many elements. There are definitely anarchists on the ground doing legwork to promote their thinking and principles. Its primarily however regular people who would give a confused look at the word “ideology” and who are enjoying the cop free neighborhood with free food and music. Emmideer fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Jun 12, 2020 |
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Jun 12, 2020 16:33
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https://twitter.com/gavinmuellerphd/status/1270416920613998593?s=21
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Jun 12, 2020 16:34
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Jun 12, 2020 16:34
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Jon Joe posted:Like with all things it’s a heavy mixture of many elements. There are definitely anarchists on the ground doing legwork your promote their thinking and principles. Its primarily however regular people who would give a confused look at the word “ideology” and who are enjoying the cop free neighborhood with free food and music. Fair enough, I don't live in Seattle so I mostly just see a lot detached "CHAZ is great!" stuff which is fine, but I guess saying it out loud, obviously not everything gets (or should be) publicized. I definitely feel this though, but I'll admit to having troubles de-coupling flashbacks to the ultimate impotence of OWS to the current moment, despite the fact that there's really nothing in common between the two. IMO this is a personal failing. Anything that agitates against the police and helps build a new concept of community is good
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Jun 12, 2020 16:44
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Nineball posted:This has been the core of my confusion lately, because I haven't seen anything that indicates that the CHAZ is in any way actually anarchist outside of the name implying that it is i think it's just an easy way of categorizing types of action, it's not to condemn or praise. it's not really for me to say how a bunch of lefties on the literal other side of the country in a different city choose how to oppose the boot on their neck currently
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Jun 12, 2020 16:49
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Any time vast numbers of normies are compelled to get into the streets, it's awesome, and agitators and organizers are out there whispering in their ears and handing them literature/inviting them to meetings It's probably not going to be the first action of a continuous and unbroken chain of events that lead to the revolution, but it's definitely the most interesting and powerful action in a long time
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Jun 12, 2020 16:53
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Nineball posted:I definitely feel this though, but I'll admit to having troubles de-coupling flashbacks to the ultimate impotence of OWS to the current moment, despite the fact that there's really nothing in common between the two. IMO this is a personal failing. yah I feel this, but I think the best thing we can do now is leave the detached ironic nihilism for the internet and project nothing but good vibes in the real
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Jun 12, 2020 17:25
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Also wasn't OWS weirdly fixated on homeless style tent city living vs actually taking up space in buildings etc
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Jun 12, 2020 17:31
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Absolutely agreed on the upon posts, especially in maintaining good vibes and communicating to normiesshovelbum posted:Also wasn't OWS weirdly fixated on homeless style tent city living vs actually taking up space in buildings etc Yeah, and it was detrimental to varying degrees depending on the city. Like the NYC encampment was basically just a target for cops to come and arrest people in waves and as far as I know never really mobilized due to some early kinks that were never worked out (disagreements in purpose, unanimous consent to planning, eventual infiltrators) I always try to keep Occupy Oakland in mind, which formed with a goal to push back against police conduct and even organized a strike
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Jun 12, 2020 17:55
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https://twitter.com/dogsrcops666/status/1271085955252916224?s=21
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Jun 12, 2020 17:59
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Idk. I’m sympathetic in that it’s people trying something. It’s a dead end though and I’m not getting invested and I wouldn’t advocate to replicate it.
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Jun 12, 2020 19:31
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reminded of zizek speaking at Occupy, “Don’t fall in love with yourselves. Carnivals come cheap.” the question is always if you can turn a festival of anti-authority feeling into durable power
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Jun 12, 2020 20:19
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https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-06-14/protesters-march-hollywood-to-west-hollywood-call-for-racial-justice?_amp=true Some speakers focused their attention on local elected officials, particularly Los Angeles County Dist. Atty. Jackie Lacey, who’s locked in a competitive reelection contest against former San Francisco Dist. Atty. George Gascón. Danny Gresham, an organizer with the Party for Socialism and Liberation, shouted encouragement over a loudspeaker for people to protest the incumbent prosecutor, whose record on police use-of-force cases has become an issue in the campaign. Gresham complained about the tactics shown by law enforcement during recent protests, calling it the “militarization” of law enforcement. “This is what our hard-earned tax money is going to. Do we want that?” Gresham shouted, and the crowd shouted back, “No!” “We want reinvesting and rebuilding in our communities,” Gresham said. “We shouldn’t be having to fight for housing. We shouldn’t be having to fight for heathcare. We shouldn’t have to be demanding to defund the police.” Chants rang out among the crowd: “Prosecute killer cops!” “Black lives matter!”
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Jun 15, 2020 00:14
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Anybody know of something good to read on Communist era Bulgaria? I know that’s pretty broad.
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Jun 15, 2020 04:52
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kotkin got incredibly grating after a while, there wasn't even a pretense at objectivity. anyone have recommendations for books on the russian civil war and soviet consolidation/transition into a functioning state?
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Jun 16, 2020 00:02
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https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/1273329083364126722 lol
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Jun 17, 2020 20:02
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lol
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Jun 17, 2020 20:03
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holy poo poo lol
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Jun 17, 2020 20:07
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voted 5
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Jun 17, 2020 20:13
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