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Mel Mudkiper posted:I mean, keep in mind the only reason libraries even exist is because they were grandfathered in pre-capitalism. Generally speaking I think your opinions are shallow and ill-considered but whatever, they're opinions and they don't have to be based on anything other than your own predilections, but this statement is just plain historically wrong, and everyone with even a cursory knowledge of book history knows it. You obviously don't even have the faintest clue what you're talking about, and you definitely don't evince any desire to learn, and you won't be quiet, and lord knows the mods won't ding you for this bullshit even though it's toxic to any kind of informed discussion that moves beyond sophistry, but for the record you sound like an idiot. The public library as we know it is quite clearly an extension of private lending libraries that flourished starting in the 18th century as a direct result of capitalism. Read some loving Robert Darnton or something.
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Jun 13, 2020 00:10
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If you abolish publishers who does the job of quality control? Self published novels generally suck
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Jun 13, 2020 00:14
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cda posted:Generally speaking I think your opinions are shallow and ill-considered but whatever, they're opinions and they don't have to be based on anything other than your own predilections, but this statement is just plain historically wrong, and everyone with even a cursory knowledge of book history knows it. You obviously don't even have the faintest clue what you're talking about, and you definitely don't evince any desire to learn, and you won't be quiet, and lord knows the mods won't ding you for this bullshit even though it's toxic to any kind of informed discussion that moves beyond sophistry, but for the record you sound like an idiot. The public library as we know it is quite clearly an extension of private lending libraries that flourished starting in the 18th century as a direct result of capitalism. Read some loving Robert Darnton or something. The public library =! libraries Anyways I am sure you have a great argument that is finally gonna completely refute me but you left the oven on or whatever your excuse will be this time Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Jun 13, 2020 |
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Jun 13, 2020 00:19
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Hedrigall posted:If you abolish publishers who does the job of quality control? Self published novels generally suck You can hire freelance copyeditors and editors. Most self-published writers don't, either because it's an extra expense they don't want to deal with or they simply don't know, but it's an option.
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Jun 13, 2020 00:27
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Hedrigall posted:If you abolish publishers who does the job of quality control? Self published novels generally suck Community curated lists exist. Stream greenlight was a poo poo nozzle of unbelievable proportions, but communities of enthusiasts still pulled out the handful of diamonds edit: I guess you meant editors, in which case, i refer you to above
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Jun 13, 2020 00:29
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Mel Mudkiper posted:The public library =! libraries Heh, ever heard of a little library at Alexandria????? Come the gently caress on, man, we’re talking about modern libraries of mass produced words here not collections of handmade books at some monastery.
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Jun 13, 2020 00:31
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I mean even if you are going to assert that library obviously means public library it still feels wildly dishonest to compare 18th century early capitalism with early 21st century late stage corporate capitalism, especially considering that the escalation of copyright is a uniquely 20th century event Just because public libraries are an outcrop of oligarch philanthropy it's still a wildly different reality in terms of information ownership that we are in now and they share almost none of the same values wrt ownership Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Jun 13, 2020 |
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Jun 13, 2020 00:32
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Mel Mudkiper posted:The public library =! libraries The plainly obvious and easily verifiable fact of the continuing development of libraries under capitalism refutes your argument just fine, thanks. You do not know what you're talking about.
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Jun 13, 2020 00:46
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cda posted:The plainly obvious and easily verifiable fact of the continuing development of libraries under capitalism refutes your argument just fine, thanks. You do not know what you're talking about. Except that it doesnt? Capitalism is not a static and unchanging force
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Jun 13, 2020 00:48
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I mean even if you are going to assert that library obviously means public library it still feels wildly dishonest to compare 18th century early capitalism with early 21st century late stage corporate capitalism, especially considering that the escalation of copyright is a uniquely 20th century event You are just making stuff up. Please stop and go read a book.
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Jun 13, 2020 00:51
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Except that it doesnt? The Mel Mudkiper Method: 1) Make an inflammatory claim that anyone with knowledge of the subject or a functioning brain instantly sees for the bullshit it is. 2) Argue semantics until people get bored. 3) Repeat.
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Jun 13, 2020 00:54
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ok buddy
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Jun 13, 2020 00:57
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Hedrigall posted:If you abolish publishers who does the job of quality control? Self published novels generally suck What sort of quality control are you talking about here, and why is it important? Are you talking about stuff like getting the words spelled right and laid out on the page and so forth, or are you talking about making sure the books meet a certain standard of quality or what?
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Jun 13, 2020 00:59
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Idk, I have no dog in this race (is that a phrase?) but I do know when, for example, I’m looking to see what sci-fi books have come out lately I start by go looking at what Tor has put out this year or whatever They seem to serve a purpose in like... curating new talent and promoting them and providing services for the books like editing and design/artwork etc Idk I’m probably just a slave to capitalism so forgive me
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Jun 13, 2020 01:12
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Also publishers employ people whose job it is to go through the slush pile and sort out all the crap so I can have some measure of confidence that a new book I pick up off the shelf in a store will not be the worst trash (but hey it’s genre fiction so,
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Jun 13, 2020 01:14
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Also publishers employ people Like editors and graphic designers and all the other dozens/hundreds of jobs in the book world that aren’t the writing Sorry I’m such a bootlicker for publishers
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Jun 13, 2020 01:15
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Hedrigall posted:Idk, I have no dog in this race (is that a phrase?) but I do know when, for example, I’m looking to see what sci-fi books have come out lately I start by go looking at what Tor has put out this year or whatever I read about new books in magazines. Critics exist. Didn't Tor publish "Bioshock"? I bought it and it was poopy poop. (I wasn't expecting much more.) E: now I'm wandering why the gently caress I bought it 
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Jun 13, 2020 01:18
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I’m not saying my argument is flawless and I probably could put effort in to research new books that are getting good reviews and junk But on the other hand I’m a lazy consumer, put me in the aisle of a bookstore and I’m first drawn to whatever book the publishers did a good job of making look attractive and paying(?) for pull quotes on the front etc *nervously clutches monocle in pocket, hoping that people don’t uncover my true identity as Thaddeus C. Apital, inventor of capitalism*
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Jun 13, 2020 01:21
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Speaking of attractive books I hate that one of the best publishers in the country went from having an ugly but quaint logo to having an extremely ugly and badly designed logo (Sammakko). I'd post them if I wasn't on a Samnsung.
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Jun 13, 2020 01:26
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cda posted:The Mel Mudkiper Method: This poo poo isn't helping. The "discuss books not posters" rule still applies even when the target is being an idiot. If an idea is bad say why it's bad. I've been taking a light hand in this discussion for the past few pages because the discussion was interesting despite the personal asides but it's time for them to stop, in all directions. That said, Mel Mudkiper posted:I mean, keep in mind the only reason libraries even exist is because they were grandfathered in pre-capitalism. this post is correct in substance if not in technical detail. Yes, free public libraries were instituted in the early 1700's and 1800's partly in reaction to the growth of capitalism (and partly, especially in America, due to religious motivations, which take a bit of work to shoehorn under "capitalism," though it's doable if you want to hard enough). Still, a social and political development in reaction to capitalism -- which British public libraries at least were, though they significantly post-date American public libraries -- is broadly in line with Mel's argument. The point is that libraries exist because they became established back when 1) religion was still enough of a factor in public life to power social progress, 2) capitalist forces hadn't achieved the same degree of supremacy, 3) capitalists still had enough of a guilt complex to feel they needed to fund domestic public works 4) there was enough of a social commons to support the idea of general public education 5) etc. however you want to frame it .. . all has some validity, even if it's just "we wouldn't have public libraries now if the fight for them hadn't been won two centuries ago." The same is broadly true of a lot of other things too; if we didn't have public schools already, it'd be all vouchers all the time at best, etc. You have to account for the "people are shitposting on a forum, not writing cited journal articles" factor.
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Jun 13, 2020 01:28
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I don't think publishers are bad for collating and curating and marketing books, i think they are bad for abusing copyright laws, bilking college students, and not paying authors their due edit: yes I'm talking super broadly Famethrowa fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Jun 13, 2020 |
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Jun 13, 2020 01:31
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I think everyone in this thread is in agreement that authors should get paid more
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Jun 13, 2020 01:33
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A lot of people don't know that our University library, probably both, are public libraries. And they have all the porn ever published in Finland.
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Jun 13, 2020 01:34
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Except for JK Rowling!!!!! e: gently caress, pretend I got this in right after my previous post
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Jun 13, 2020 01:34
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Hedrigall posted:If you abolish publishers who does the job of quality control? Self published novels generally suck Large publishers who release reams of YA science fiction aren't practising quality control in the first place.
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Jun 13, 2020 01:35
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Hedrigall posted:Except for JK Rowling!!!!! If Rowling has written porn and it has been published in Finland, it's there!
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Jun 13, 2020 01:36
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There's a not bad series of videos from the two guys in charge of Influx Press. It's them talking about aspects of the publishing industry, from the perspective of editors at an indie press, and as writers of both fiction and non-fiction. This one is about "Risk Taking" in publishing. There's more if you click through to their channel. It's nothing groundbreaking, but what they're talking about is fairly considered by them, and it's nice to see/watch/listen to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7i3rzYd64c
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Jun 13, 2020 03:41
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Instead of reading more jargonposts everyone can instead read N.K. Jemisin on the IA. https://twitter.com/nkjemisin/status/1271593362374656005 A key point is that the IA never asked permission. They just took. I think if you avoid tenth-level fake leftism its possible to grasp that white people taking cultural work from black people without consent or compensation is bad. On the other hand Wendig says 'AWOOGAH' on twitter so who can say what the ethical answer is.
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Jun 13, 2020 05:03
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so I'm supposed to believe that the not for profit online library that does a genuine cultural service is worse for black people and their art than large publishing companies selling said art for a profit, just because they allowed people to borrow ebooks without limit during a pandemic?
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Jun 13, 2020 07:51
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I don't think the authors are saying, "oh boy, we sure love the measly pittance that publishers give us, this is the best possible arrangement for us and for our art." It's more like "hey, please stop making our measly pittance even smaller."
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Jun 13, 2020 07:57
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Copyright law provides me a pleasant amount of money every year so it's Good, on the other hand I have 110k illegally downloaded mp3s on my computer so it's Bad Also, turning this argument into "white people are taking poo poo from black people" seems deeply suspect when what's being questioned is a principle that affects every author
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Jun 13, 2020 08:37
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you wouldn't download the bible
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Jun 13, 2020 11:02
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No I'd just steal it
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Jun 13, 2020 12:57
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I just found out that the Internet Archive got spooked enough by the lawsuit that they even removed non-book things from the site. Pretty recently someone found a prototype of an unreleased Maxis game/software, Sim Refinery. It was never released to the public because it was privately commissioned. But somehow, someone found a copy of it and they uploaded it to the Internet Archive. It's a cool piece of history that never got to see the light of day until this year. But now it has been removed and that sucks. I'm sure it's far from the only non-book media to be affected by the lawsuit too!
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Jun 13, 2020 13:02
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they actually found a copy of sim refinery? I just read the article about that, that's amazing My takeway from this is that the Internet Archive is planning poorly
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Jun 13, 2020 13:07
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maybe its not bad if IA is shut down in whole so my friends can stop making fun of me for my livejournal they found
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Jun 13, 2020 13:31
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I am not sure why we are supposed to consider NK Jemisin the highest authority on this topic EDIT: as much as I find the whole race element to this particular discussion to be dumb and superfluous, its funny that a service that provides free access to books that readers in the global south would otherwise have no access to is supposed to somehow be bad for black people. The idea of "just buy the book" or "just go to the library" demonstrates a very clear ignorance of the realities of information access to most of the world. It's a very naive view of the world. Hell, consider that even in wealthy countries information access is still tricky. Chinese nationals with a VPN could use the service to access texts that would otherwise be censored or illegal. Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 13:44 on Jun 13, 2020 |
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Jun 13, 2020 13:35
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:they actually found a copy of sim refinery? I just read the article about that, that's amazing Yea agreed. The pandemic definitely accelerated it, but it'd be foolish to think that they could have continued like this forever without any big companies getting pissed off. I'm sure on some level they knew it was a possibility but it doesn't come across like they were as prepared as they should have been.
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Jun 13, 2020 14:07
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Mel Mudkiper posted:The idea of "just buy the book" or "just go to the library" demonstrates a very clear ignorance of the realities of information access to most of the world. also, the internet archive is literally a library and their ebooks are normally distributed in the exact same way that ebooks are lent out from public libraries.
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Jun 13, 2020 14:16
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A human heart posted:also, the internet archive is literally a library and their ebooks are normally distributed in the exact same way that ebooks are lent out from public libraries. Yeah it and it also cannot be ignored that their change in policy that got them targeted was due to the pandemic and the fact it caused most libraries to be literally inaccessible Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 14:21 on Jun 13, 2020 |
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Jun 13, 2020 14:17
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