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CelestialScribe posted:This is all great. Much more of an emphasis of getting people what they need/helping instead of 'lets just loving crack skulls because we're sheepdogs and all the civvies are fuckin' sheep'. CelestialScribe posted:Pass. I mean not so long ago I would have said the same.
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Jun 13, 2020 23:23
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E-Tank posted:I mean not so long ago I would have said the same. Just looking at my local facebook neighbourhood group, in the last six months there was a thread with people saying that if the Sudanese immigrants didn’t stop have so many people over with so many parked cars on the road, that they would go and break all their windows. I don’t want those people anywhere near a system of distributing justice. I don’t want them having a say.
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Jun 13, 2020 23:30
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CelestialScribe posted:This is all great. It's unremarkable. People bellow about ABOLISHING the police and when squeezed it's about having a fraction of police wear a different uniform or not carry a gun.
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Jun 13, 2020 23:47
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CelestialScribe posted:Just looking at my local facebook neighbourhood group, in the last six months there was a thread with people saying that if the Sudanese immigrants didn’t stop have so many people over with so many parked cars on the road, that they would go and break all their windows. I don’t want those people anywhere near a system of distributing justice. I don’t want them having a say. There will unfortunately always be shitters, but they are fortunately in the minority. I can understand that, and people whom have proven untrustworthy/are not trusted could be shunned publicly until they attempt to make good, just y'know. . .they still get basic human necessities. Also all of these jobs would still require a lot of training, and if you're not interested in doing it right, you're probably not gonna want to deal with all the training, I cannot say that everything would be perfect, there is no perfect system, but I figure it'd be better than what we have.
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Jun 13, 2020 23:47
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Baron Porkface posted:It's unremarkable. People bellow about ABOLISHING the police and when squeezed it's about having a fraction of police wear a different uniform or not carry a gun. I want to abolish the police. I want to defund them. But there will always need to be some sort of communally agreed to people who can fill the role that cops currently pretend to fill.
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Jun 13, 2020 23:49
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CelestialScribe posted:My biggest problems with police right now is that they’re simply trying to do too many things and without proper training. So disarm the police, rebrand the current administrative divisions into more separate groups, and let's not forget, more women cops. Sentencing reform, but only for traffic violations. Nothing about changing the toxic culture surrounding police and policing. Nothing about mental health or addiction specialists. Nothing about improving systemic conditions that lead to crime. Pass.
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Jun 13, 2020 23:53
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Getting rid of the cops, who know only how to kill, beat, eat hot chip and lie. And replacing them with organizations that do what people wish the cops did, doesn't seem that unremarkable imo.
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Jun 13, 2020 23:54
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E-Tank posted:There will unfortunately always be shitters, but they are fortunately in the minority. I can understand that, and people whom have proven untrustworthy/are not trusted could be shunned publicly until they attempt to make good, just y'know. . .they still get basic human necessities. Unless, of course, the community believes that’s exactly the type of justice that should be implemented. That’s my problem with the anarchist model - if justice is whatever the community says it is, it leads to some terrible situations. Imagine those people in my neighbourhood feeling justified in taking action? It’s not outside of the realm of possibility that those immigrants would be driven out to a different neighbourhood.
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Jun 13, 2020 23:54
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OwlFancier posted:that do what people wish the cops did, What guarantee do you have of this?
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Jun 13, 2020 23:55
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CelestialScribe posted:My biggest problems with police right now is that they’re simply trying to do too many things and without proper training. If this is your biggest problem with the police right now then you aren't paying attention. Police just don't get frustrated with doing too many things and do a racism or start shooting people, and they have all the funds in the world to do all of those things and have the absolute best possible training. They simply have no interest in interacting with people in a constructive way or de-escalating situations. Institutionally, they are simply not set up to do any of that. The LAPD spending on police is massively larger than every social program the city of Los Angeles offers combined.
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Jun 13, 2020 23:55
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Baron Porkface posted:It's unremarkable. People bellow about ABOLISHING the police and when squeezed it's about having a fraction of police wear a different uniform or not carry a gun. An unarmed police force that practices descalation and prioritizes crime prevention via social work would be almost unrecognizable as police given their current role and tactics.
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Jun 13, 2020 23:56
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Baron Porkface posted:What guarantee do you have of this? I mean, you're basically asking "how can humans do anything good together" which, uh, I dunno they usually figure something out?
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Jun 13, 2020 23:56
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It seems everyone here really is convinced that if we got rid of all law enforcement tomorrow that communities would step up and provide better systems. (I said law enforcement, not police). I believe that’s the case in many places, just not all. And that seems to be the fundamental disagreement here, so I’m not sure there’s much room for discussion. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 13, 2020 23:58
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Baron Porkface posted:What guarantee do you have of this? Well as we've mentioned, the ability for any member of this group to be recalled at any time if people feel they are being a detriment to the community. They don't 'self report' or some poo poo like that, they actually are held responsible by the community they protect.  Like genuinely, are you saying that we get rid of police and just. . .*never* have some sort of community defense?
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Jun 14, 2020 00:03
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E-Tank posted:Well as we've mentioned, the ability for any member of this group to be recalled at any time if people feel they are being a detriment to the community. They don't 'self report' or some poo poo like that, they actually are held responsible by the community they protect. I think the point is that community defence would look very different in each place and that some communities’ ideas of safety would be...not safe for some. Yes, I know that problem exists now.
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Jun 14, 2020 00:05
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fool of sound posted:An unarmed police force that practices descalation and prioritizes crime prevention via social work would be almost unrecognizable as police given their current role and tactics. I'd like more evidence of what this descalation and "social work" consists of before considering it a game changer.
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Jun 14, 2020 00:06
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Or rather more significantly, right now the consistent trend is that rich, white communities defend themselves from poor, black communities by sending people to do violence on them, and that's called the police force.
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Jun 14, 2020 00:06
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Baron Porkface posted:I'd like more evidence of what this descalation and "social work" consists of before considering it a game changer. My dude you are demanding we walk you through every single step of de-escalation and what goes into social work, all the while going 'hah, you say you want to abolish the police, but you want to replace it with something better and without the literal decades of system racism it's built on! IE: EXACTLY THE SAME AS THE POLICE! Owned' I am starting to think you're not arguing in good faith.
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Jun 14, 2020 00:08
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E-Tank posted:Well as we've mentioned, the ability for any member of this group to be recalled at any time if people feel they are being a detriment to the community. They don't 'self report' or some poo poo like that, they actually are held responsible by the community they protect. No one is going to take the job if anyone anywhere can get them fired if they "feel" like it. And that's still not abolition. use a different word if you want reform.
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Jun 14, 2020 00:11
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Baron Porkface posted:I'd like more evidence of what this descalation and "social work" consists of before considering it a game changer. The thread is largely discussing hypotheticals with regards to 'what to do about the cops'. 'Prove your theoretical idea has no shortcomings according my my interpretation of your theory' is not a reasonable way to have a discussion.
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Jun 14, 2020 00:11
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Baron Porkface posted:No one is going to take the job if anyone anywhere can get them fired if they "feel" like it. yeah okay you're not arguing in good faith. Have fun raging against clouds in the sky.
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Jun 14, 2020 00:11
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E-Tank posted:My dude you are demanding we walk you through every single step of de-escalation and what goes into social work, Yes I am demanding that. If you think you are a genius lawgiver who thinks he knows better than most American law enforcement officials, and is advertising this ONE WIERD TRICK to make law enforcement work effectively, the I expect extraordinary evidence for this extraordinary claim.
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Jun 14, 2020 00:13
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OwlFancier posted:Or rather more significantly, right now the consistent trend is that rich, white communities defend themselves from poor, black communities by sending people to do violence on them, and that's called the police force. Again, I think everyone acknowledges this. The question is if we move to a self governing model, would every community be safer on balance? And if they aren’t, is that a price we as society are willing to pAy?
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Jun 14, 2020 00:13
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fool of sound posted:The thread is largely discussing hypotheticals with regards to 'what to do about the cops'. 'Prove your theoretical idea has no shortcomings according my my interpretation of your theory' is not a reasonable way to have a discussion. You hypothetical has no value without evidence.
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Jun 14, 2020 00:13
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Baron Porkface posted:Yes I am demanding that. If you think you are a genious lawgiver who thinks he knows better than most American law enforcement officials, and is advertising this ONE WIERD TRICK to make law enforcement work effectively, the I expect extraordinary evidence for this extraordinary claim. Are you arguing that the current state of police is the best possible form of law enforcement short of complete abolition? Cause that's what it looks like you're arguing.
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Jun 14, 2020 00:14
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OwlFancier posted:Or rather more significantly, right now the consistent trend is that rich, white communities oppress black communities by sending people to do violence on them, and that's called the police force. I think this is more accurate tbh
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Jun 14, 2020 00:15
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CelestialScribe posted:Again, I think everyone acknowledges this. I don't think that is the question, I think the question is "would it be better for more people" Saying that we can't address the numerous built in problems with the cops because someone, somewhere, might be worse off, I think is wrong. People everywhere are suffering now in clearly visible ways, and I think that it is important that their problems be solved by directly getting rid of the thing that causes them, which is cops. Koalas March posted:I think this is more accurate tbh Yes, I should probably have put "defend" in very big scare quotes there cos it's not really very defensive.
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Jun 14, 2020 00:16
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fool of sound posted:Are you arguing that the current state of police is the best possible form of law enforcement short of complete abolition? Cause that's what it looks like you're arguing. It's not what I'm arguing. I am arguing that e-tank doesn't have the evidence to back up his claim. I'd love if we could wash away our law enforcement problems with "social work" but I'm not convinced it's true.
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Jun 14, 2020 00:16
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Baron Porkface posted:It's not what I'm arguing. I am arguing that e-tank doesn't have the evidence to back up his claim. I'd love if we could was away our law enforcement problems with "social work" but I'm not convinced it's true. OK, what specific things do you think could improve a police force short of complete abolition. This is important because I think that a large part of your answer is going to come under the wide heading of 'social work'.
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Jun 14, 2020 00:18
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CelestialScribe posted:It seems everyone here really is convinced that if we got rid of all law enforcement tomorrow that communities would step up and provide better systems. (I said law enforcement, not police). You are generalizing much of the thread, without quoting anybody, and then explaining why you think the conversation is over. This makes you appear as if you're not interested in conversation but rather pretending to be. For instance, I don't know how many people here are talking about the abolition of law enforcement, they're talking about the abolition of police. I don't see anyone saying that laws should not be enforced, but rather laws that are simply created to aid the purpose of police(oppression of minorities and the poor) should be abolished. Laws regarding things that hurt people(assault and murder) should be enforced and we should strive to reduce those things. But modern policing is not at all set up for or interested in doing that.
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Jun 14, 2020 00:18
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Baron Porkface posted:It's not what I'm arguing. I am arguing that e-tank doesn't have the evidence to back up his claim. I'd love if we could was away our law enforcement problems with "social work" but I'm not convinced it's true. No, you're arguing that I'm not saying we should abolish the police. When I'm saying burn it all down. Start over from the ground up with a new communal defense system that can held accountable by the people they are supposed to actually support. If the community does not have people they can entrust to aid in the defense of themselves and others, for those edge cases where someone gets hurt due to something other than a basic necessity not being met, we are under mob rule. That isn't police, that isn't anything near what the idea of police came from, and that isn't anything near what the police functionally *are*. You are suggesting that I'm arguing 'we can save the police if we just try hard enough!' and I'm saying 'gently caress it, burn it all down, start over from the beginning with something new'. but to you there's no difference.
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Jun 14, 2020 00:24
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fool of sound posted:OK, what specific things do you think could improve a police force short of complete abolition. This is important because I think that a large part of your answer is going to come under the wide heading of 'social work'. I don't know what could improve a police force. I am not a social work or law enforcement expert and I don't like running my mouth about things I am not knowledgeable about. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 14, 2020 00:26
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Baron Porkface posted:I don't know what could improve a police force. I am not a social work or law enforcement expert and I don't like running my mouth about things I am not knowledgeable about. Oh god it's the gun lover's argument, I never thought I'd see it used elsewhere. 'If you can't identify this piece of a gun and know exactly why it exists and what function it uses then you have no clue what you're talking about ergo you can't make an argument about how maybe not giving everyone who asks nicely for a gun will make mass shootings less common'.
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Jun 14, 2020 00:29
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I've asked E-tank to substantiate his brilliant ideas about social work 5+ posts ago and he has chosen not to.
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Jun 14, 2020 00:31
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Baron Porkface posted:I don't know what could improve a police force. I am not a social work or law enforcement expert and I don't like running my mouth about things I am not knowledgeable about. So you have no idea what else would improve it, but feel knowledgeable enough to say that social work and expanding social programs, will not help. Ok. It sounds you'd rather let the cops keep killing black people instead of making changes. Even if those changes have a couple unforseen snags, it's worth trying our best option because it can't be worse than what we have now. Which is cops having free reign to kill black people.
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Jun 14, 2020 00:32
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Koalas March posted:say that social work and expanding social programs, will not help. I did not say this you liar.
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Jun 14, 2020 00:37
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Baron Porkface posted:I did not say this you liar. "I don't know about this thus I don't run my mouth about things I don't know." loving subtle dude. Get out of here you poo poo tier troll.
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Jun 14, 2020 00:38
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Baron Porkface posted:I did not say this you liar. Ok let's break it down. Do you think cops should have free reign to murder black people?
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Jun 14, 2020 00:42
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Baron Porkface posted:I did not say this you liar. You didn't say exactly that, but you said Baron Porkface posted:I'd love if we could wash away our law enforcement problems with "social work" but I'm not convinced it's true. Why not?
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Jun 14, 2020 00:55
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https://twitter.com/ayyy_vuh/status/1271528378449920006 Beginning to like the sound of this no cops idea.
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Jun 14, 2020 00:59
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