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Meti, in her book, literally refers to Maya as "my only apprentice." But no let's come up with an extremely convoluted way that she didn't actually mean Maya was her only intended apprentice when she refers to her as "my only apprentice." I'm sure it was actually PTSD or something I made up.
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Jun 13, 2020 00:33
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you were instructed to stop sniveling (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 13, 2020 00:33
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Neither of them learned a drat thing from Meti because they both became swordmasters.
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Jun 13, 2020 01:06
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Glagha posted:Meti, in her book, literally refers to Maya as "my only apprentice." Meti may consider Maya her only apprentice but we as readers are free to disagree with her.
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Jun 13, 2020 01:13
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I didn't think it was a particularly outrageous assertion that, under Meti's tutelage, Incubus learned how to be a superlative and undefeated swordsman while Maya learned how to Cut. It follows that there is a very strong argument that Meti, who did not teach swordsmanship, only had one student. This is supported by the actual text of her book, which definitely does not seem to describe Incubus. Plus, the narrative is definitely on the side of the mysterious swordswoman who had an ancient master and who utters cryptic advice to our heroine. However, it is equally true that such a character has doubtless made many of their own mistakes.
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Jun 13, 2020 01:14
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My position is that Maya, and to a lesser extent Meti, are not admirable people whose opinions about the universe should be taken as particularly meaningful beyond describing how effective Cutting is, until and unless they achieve something like what Zoss (canonically the closest anyone in the comic is to Royalty, that's from the author, which isn't my favorite way to argue but there you go) seeks. There's no paradox to redeem the cool swords people any more than the badass angels or the would-be hero, or even the king who can spin the wheel and laugh at God. Maya is precisely as much of a washed up drunk as Incubus thinks she is. She could have stopped Incubus from becoming what he is, by killing him, but she didn't. Meti's lesson with the rat was pretty drat straightforward: Who strikes first and hardest wins. Hesitation is defeat, and slaying is the only justice in this rotten world. Immediately after the rat scene, Maya describes herself as 'rotting' and 'waiting a hundred years in agony' for 'her private devil' to 'expose his weakness' (https://killsixbilliondemons.com/comic/king-of-swords-6-59/). Maya did not attain some secret pinnacle of wisdom overcoming Incubus, Incubus has consumed her thoughts and has ruled a seventh of Creation for a thousand years (approximately). Besides, Maya herself describes Incubus as 'my master's first apprentice' only a few pages before this. She then says Meti 'only intended to train one student' but even if so, why should we assume Meti succeeded? Incubus learned exactly what he was taught, and Maya failed to strike him down. Maya is not presented as having won against Incubus, and indeed explicitly considers herself the loser of that war. She can only see Incubus as an extension of her own failings, and perhaps Meti did only intend for Incubus to be an object lesson, but frankly I'd be deeply disappointed in Abaddon if the moral was supposed to be 'some people just don't deserve to be taught and are inherently monstrous, cut them down as literal children' which is Maya's apparent takeaway from Meti's two apprentice. E: To be clear, neither Incubus nor Maya should probably have been taught swords, given the results. I'm fine with the moral being 'don't teach a war orphan who clearly desperately wants power to be a superlative swordsman and unbeatable murderer, that's a bad idea' but Meti did that thing, and Maya certainly didn't make it right by learning more of Meti's ideals. Also, Maya explicitly wasn't the one to give Meti the burial she wanted, that was Incubus, so there's an inherent irony to Maya's insistence that she's the dutiful student - she's the one who argued, who flinched from commands, who didn't really want to learn what Meti could teach. Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Jun 13, 2020 |
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Jun 13, 2020 01:32
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Nick Buntline posted:Meti was aware of this (and didn't really care because why she should care about dying), the point of the it was to try and teach Maya to stop hesitating. edit:   edit 2: VVVV obviously, I disagree. Incubus might be Maya's greatest regret, but I don't think he is Maya's goal. hey girl you up fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Jun 13, 2020 |
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Jun 13, 2020 01:33
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Glagha posted:Well because apparently people literally can't understand the very lowest bar of storytelling or extremely common and normal storytelling tropes, I'll spell it out for you: The lesson was about swordlaw (no hesitation, continuous cutting motion etc.) but it was also about actually squaring your actions with your goals. In that respect Incubus lives a much more consistent life even now. He's internalized the fact that Demiurges are terrible people (including himself), and he doesn't let that fact stop him. Maya is still hesitating because she can't sacrifice creation for her revenge just like she couldn't sacrifice her fellow apprentice to save the rat. If she had learned what Meti was trying to teach she would have fully given up by now (or killed Incubus without regard for consequences) instead of being Allison's #1 stalker and hoping to see someone else do what she can't.
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Jun 13, 2020 01:36
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incubus is someone who obsessively clings to victory and surrounds himself with the squalid trophies of his former conquests. he takes pleasure in the result of cutting rather than the act and by the standards of sword law that makes him the lowliest, most witless, most repulsive creature in creation. he’s the antithesis of meti’s teachings luckily for our heroes, while he’s remained still and whiled away his time, his ten thousand cuts have circled ten thousand worlds and grown ten thousandfold. they will find him in the end
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Jun 13, 2020 01:44
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Maya's language about Incubus doesn't sound like someone worried about collateral damage. She explicitly says what she is doing is waiting for him to 'expose his weakness.' I'm reasonably certain Maya just doesn't think she can beat Incubus, and that's why she hasn't fought him. That's by her own admission! So I do think that yes, Incubus has a better grasp of Sword Law than Maya, because while Incubus clings to victory, so does Maya. Maya was not prepared to die fighting Incubus, she wants to see him destroyed, and she doesn't see a way to do that, where true Cutting would mean walking up to him and striking him down or being struck down without a second thought. Meti is very clear on that proposition. E: Put another way, I think both Incubus and Maya rejected key elements of Meti's teachings. Both are deeply attached to results; Incubus to victory, Maya to defeat. Neither can laugh as they are bisected and weep tears of joy at the beauty of the cut - and if Meti could, she must have wept tears of joy at the beauty of the cut Incubus killed her with. Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Jun 13, 2020 |
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Jun 13, 2020 01:45
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hey girl you up posted:VVVV obviously, I disagree. Incubus might be Maya's greatest regret, but I don't think he is Maya's goal. Joe Slowboat posted:Maya's language about Incubus doesn't sound like someone worried about collateral damage. Algid fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Jun 13, 2020 |
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Jun 13, 2020 02:04
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:you were instructed to stop sniveling I don't usually click through to see probe text but I did this time and I don't regret it.  How Wonderful
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Jun 13, 2020 02:13
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Xand_Man posted:I don't usually click through to see probe text but I did this time and I don't regret it. Same, these were good clicks
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Jun 13, 2020 02:34
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Tenebrais posted:Neither of them learned a drat thing from Meti because they both became swordmasters. Incubus came already knowing. He was just there to get the paper certification
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Jun 13, 2020 02:47
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I like the web comic Kill Six Billion Demons.
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Jun 13, 2020 03:08
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If I had to describe the relationship between Meti, Maya, and Incubus:
If I had to answer the question "could Maya beat Incubus" I would probably say "nobody knows, and Maya doesn't know, and she doesn't know what would happen if she succeeded and whether she would like that result, and because of that she's been loving around for a million years instead of cutting him."
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Jun 13, 2020 04:02
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Algid posted:WoG is that the seven are special among Demiurges because they managed to work together. That is their true strength, not that they can cut/punch real good, there's nothing unique about that among the princes of the world. This means that what Maya is waiting for is for something to upset the balance of the seven part world, which she's obviously found along with the other pursuers. That doesn't follow, unless you think Maya is herself special among demiurges/princes of the world. Incubus killed Meti, that's a pretty drat good reason to assume he's a highly capable combatant with a sword. Maya, knowing he did that, didn't fight him (or one of them would be dead). Now, maybe Maya could have beaten him! But clearly she chose to flee rather than kill someone she hates so absolutely utterly that she's spent a thousand years dwelling on it and contemplating death. She never says anything that points to her caring at all about the other demiurges, or indeed that points to her valuing the peace of the Seven-Part World. What we do have is her expressing hatred of Incubus mixed with an awareness that to go against a god is to die, and saying only a fool would fail to do so when there's no chance of eventual victory. She criticizes herself for her fear of death, which does in fact point to her having learned but not internalized Sword Law's insistence that one must be ready to die at any time. It would be a huge disappointment, given that, if she could actually just walk up to Incubus and kill him and she's not doing that because she thinks the other demiurges will protect him, when we've repeatedly seen that they compare Incubus unfavorably to her. Incubus' "stolen throne" and "wicked ways" wouldn't matter if they were glad he took her place.
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Jun 13, 2020 04:06
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Xand_Man posted:I don't usually click through to see probe text but I did this time and I don't regret it. They were both beautiful poetic entries to the lepers colony reasons column.
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Jun 13, 2020 04:27
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Meti's student was Meti do yall not understand philosophy or metaphor at all?
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Jun 13, 2020 04:29
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The real student is you, the reader.
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Jun 13, 2020 04:35
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Ye Gods you all flabberlips with your exegesises of yon text. Hark, THIS this thy actual agonist, negotiating in these panels!
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Jun 13, 2020 04:50
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Joe Slowboat posted:That doesn't follow, unless you think Maya is herself special among demiurges/princes of the world. That sounds to me like the primary obstacle to killing a god is another universal war and not the technical limitations of getting them to bleed.
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Jun 13, 2020 04:54
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Algid posted:"He is beyond revenge. All those who bear a key are. You have not seen them wage war...as I have" I just read that in entirely the opposite reading, it looks precisely like saying that the power of a 111,111 key-bearing demiurge is outside of what Maya thinks she can fight.
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Jun 13, 2020 05:11
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Having a key and knowing how to use it puts you so far above most people that the gulf is insurmountable. Solomon had to use Ki Rata to get his key and the guy he killed for it only had the power of a couple of them, not 1/7 of them.
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Jun 13, 2020 05:39
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Joe Slowboat posted:I just read that in entirely the opposite reading, it looks precisely like saying that the power of a 111,111 key-bearing demiurge is outside of what Maya thinks she can fight. If that's all Maya is lacking for her revenge, she could have resolved this a couple of books ago.
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Jun 13, 2020 05:51
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Somewhat related to the idea of who is stronger between Maya and Incubus. Only one of them has specifically learned an ability to safeguard themselves from harm, specifically potential decapitations or headshots. Coincidentally, only one of them has wounds on their head beyond a bad haircut. I've held it in my head for a while that Maya is the one that partially blinded Incubus, I don't know if any supplementary materials corroborate this but it probably happened in the aftermath of Meti's death. And Incubus had to work to improve so he could get that salty runback but when he finally came for it, she had already left the army and her key behind so he claimed them. I think it's been a see-saw dynamic between the two of them for as long as they've been peers, with Incubus currently on the higher elevation and Maya brooding about it.
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Jun 13, 2020 07:08
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Algid posted:Then why is no one killing Allison? She has 108 stalkers waiting to see what happens and even those idiots know that actually getting the master key is basically suicide. I think that's a good question! Well, part of it is - it's not like Maya or the 108 knew where Allison was for the last year, but in Mottom's palace Maya definitely looked like she was trying to decide whether to take Allison's key. Maya seems deeply conflicted; she wanted to be a hero long ago, and she's not sure what kind of person Allison is. Every time she's had the chance, she's asked 'hey girl, what do you think about death?' And they've never actually had a conversation. Maybe she wants to train Allison. Maybe she wants to take the key but is also afraid of what will happen if she does. Maybe the tension between her being a student of the principle art of Cutting and her being someone who wants to protect people is pretty drat key to her character! Besides, nobody actually knows about the master key except Allison and the angels; what Maya knows is that it's a key of kings. Not the key of kings. Nobody knows what the master key is except for people who know where the key comes from (Metatron). There's no evidence any of the 108 have been abstaining from stealing the key, they've all been going wild with violence whenever it's nearby to try to make sure they're the one to claim it.
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Jun 13, 2020 07:14
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Mr. Lobe posted:He's also albino, that tends to be bad for vision, perhaps even if you obtain demigod powers Somehow reminds me of another angsty albino demigod who needed his sword as a crutch. Those are only superficial similarities though; for Elric it's really the sword who's the soul-drinking demigod; while I don't think there's anything special about Inky's sword (and in fact it should be an unremarkable, mundane sword because Meti's lessons are that it's not the sword that matters, it's the will; see also Maya cutting things up with a broken sword that no longer has a blade).
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Jun 13, 2020 07:33
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Meti didn’t teach Incubus wrong. She taught him right to show maya it was wrong
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Jun 13, 2020 10:57
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Nothing But Hate posted:Meti didn’t teach Incubus wrong. She taught him right to show maya it was wrong this is honestly a really good way to put it
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Jun 13, 2020 11:01
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Just noticed the near-complete absence of Solomon's atum on the latest page - meaning that just like in the ki rata scene, he's not using his key at all, the smug bastard.
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Jun 13, 2020 19:25
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Atum flare up and the crown arent indicative of a key, and since Empty Palms is a cold atum, internal style, and according to the Manual of Hands and Feet looks completely unassuming. Until you get hit by it from twenty paces away. Hed still wont be using his key because hes an arrogant smuglord. Note he used the move that denotes mastery of empty palms as his opening attack.
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Jun 13, 2020 19:36
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I concede defeat
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Jun 13, 2020 20:04
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Joe Slowboat posted:Besides, nobody actually knows about the master key except Allison and the angels; what Maya knows is that it's a key of kings. Not the key of kings. Nobody knows what the master key is except for people who know where the key comes from (Metatron). There's no evidence any of the 108 have been abstaining from stealing the key, they've all been going wild with violence whenever it's nearby to try to make sure they're the one to claim it. edit: Although, after using the 10/30 cubit spear in the tournament, I think it's safe to say that any student of history could suspect she's got some of the conquering king's influence, at the very least. hey girl you up fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Jun 13, 2020 |
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Jun 13, 2020 20:20
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Nothing But Hate posted:Meti didn’t teach Incubus wrong. She taught him right to show maya it was wrong Oh, that crystallizes the concept really well.
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Jun 14, 2020 00:50
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It has been made very clear that Incubus is an excellent and probably undefeated swordsman. It is also explicit that being an undefeated swordsman means you suck. I would also speculate that Maya, despite her clear failures, is in the process of cutting Incubus very, very slowly. The fight with a Juggs clearly demonstrates that she eventually learned how to not hesitate or fear the outcome of her cut. She almost certainly knows what happens when you open up an angel, but stopping to think about that fact will gently caress up your cut, so you best not spend time worrying about that nuke that's about to go off in your face.
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Jun 14, 2020 02:59
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Rigged Death Trap posted:Atum flare up and the crown arent indicative of a key, and since Empty Palms is a cold atum, internal style, and according to the Manual of Hands and Feet looks completely unassuming. Until you get hit by it from twenty paces away. Did he? I thought that was YISUN's Open Palm. This just seems like a generic big move.
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Jun 14, 2020 03:06
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Darth Walrus posted:Did he? I thought that was YISUN's Open Palm. This just seems like a generic big move. Manual of Hands And Feet posted:It is said masters of this style can so precisely align the channels of power within their body that they can project the force of their blows at range, sometimes up to thirty or forty paces away. One old master of this style, who dwells in Fifteen Rivers, makes a great show to visitors of striking a heavy cast iron bell some 5 or 6 shins high with great blows from his fists, though he stands apart from the bell quite some distance. Yeah Davey is trying to style on WC in her own game.
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Jun 14, 2020 03:19
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Lemony posted:It has been made very clear that Incubus is an excellent and probably undefeated swordsman. It is also explicit that being an undefeated swordsman means you suck. Gotta say, that instakill of Juggs' (thorn armor form) is, in retrospect, even more loving wild in light of the current arc that's made it abundantly clear what absolute beasts angels are.
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Jun 14, 2020 03:22
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