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Also, I again point out that the Atlanta police are busy abolishing themselves while you argue with concern trolls.
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Jun 18, 2020 03:51
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E-Tank posted:Abolish the police. Abolish everything about them. Burn it all down, and start over again from a new starting point. Defund, tear them all down. How does not make any sense? It's really strange that people get confused about this. Most people don't know the ins and outs of what these phrases mean and aren't knee-deep in policy analysis every day. It's really strange to get confused about people asking questions when really, the problem might be in the slogan itself. Maybe it's less about people arguing in bad faith and more about, the slogan itself sucks, considering there are about 20 different positions that "defund the police" could mean. When average joe or jane on the street hears that, they think, "no police with nothing to replace it". And that's exactly what some folks do mean. But then others mean, replace it with something else. It's a confusing slogan.
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Jun 18, 2020 03:52
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litany of gulps posted:This dude is a wealthy Australian, he's just trolling you. The gently caress? Since when am I wealthy? News to me.
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Jun 18, 2020 03:52
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Jaxyon posted:It doesn't really matter what Scalia, noted dipshit, was thinking because the post you quoted was trying to help you understand that your original position was bad.
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Jun 18, 2020 03:53
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CelestialScribe posted:The gently caress? Since when am I wealthy? News to me. You're the guy that ran an "I only make 200k a year, can I safely move to the United States while maintaining my spare houses?" thread.
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Jun 18, 2020 03:55
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Trapick posted:Right, except nobody was saying TV has no impact, rather that treating it like dangerous propaganda that literally needs to be banned is ridiculous and counterproductive. word? Trapick posted:Nobody thinks Law & Order is a realistic portrayal of the justice system just like no one thinks House is an accurate portrayal of the medical system or the X-Files of the FBI or whatever, it's entertainment, we all know it's bullshit.
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Jun 18, 2020 03:57
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litany of gulps posted:You're the guy that ran an "I only make 200k a year, can I safely move to the United States while maintaining my spare houses?" thread. If you're going to bring up details about a different thread and my finances, you should probably not lie about them.
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Jun 18, 2020 03:57
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Jaxyon posted:Also, I again point out that the Atlanta police are busy abolishing themselves while you argue with concern trolls. What are they doing? Good news is always welcome 
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Jun 18, 2020 03:58
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CelestialScribe posted:If you're going to bring up details about a different thread and my finances, you should probably not lie about them. I just glanced at the old thread and it looks like you deleted all of your posts in it, so I can't exactly quote the specifics.
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Jun 18, 2020 03:58
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litany of gulps posted:I just glanced at the old thread and it looks like you deleted all of your posts in it, so I can't exactly quote the specifics. I deleted the thread because it had personally identifiable information in there. I do not earn $200k, I live in the house I own (I don't own any others), and wanted budget advice on whether I should sell or keep the house before moving. If that makes me wealthy according to you, then fine, but you should probably go and troll the poo poo out of BFC because there are people a lot richer than I am in there. I understand that you would rather personally lie about me in order to discredit my posts, but resist the urge.
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Jun 18, 2020 03:59
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OwlFancier posted:What are they doing? Good news is always welcome Per USPOL and twitter, they're doing a work stoppage and refusing to answer calls.
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Jun 18, 2020 04:01
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E-Tank posted:Abolish the police. Abolish everything about them. Burn it all down, and start over again from a new starting point. Defund, tear them all down. How does not make any sense? Yes. I understand that the police won't exist but I don't think the phrase "Defund the Police" is going to work. In the Midwest up to quarter of emergency calls are for domestics typically a drunk husband beating his wife. How do you expect anyone to vote for that without presenting some kind of alternative? Yes, I read the OP and I don't think we're getting a utopia anytime soon. E-Tank posted:Like in the same way we want to abolish prisons. But there'll still be a place for people who need to be kept safe either for others or themselves, we'll just make them not be anything like prisons as we know them right now. How is this not contradictory? E-Tank posted:I am struggling to make sense of why all this sudden loving pedantry. It makes me wonder if the arguments are really in good faith. I have strange reputation of being factious but it's difficult to communicate over pure text but take a look at this earlier discussion I had in the past. Halloween Jack posted:2. By the same token, when we talk about police abolition, we mean that the entire institution of policing is thoroughly tyrannical from its historical origins to the activities of police today. If they help individuals, it's only in the interests of maintaining order and serving the ruling class. Surely a free and democratic society will need some people whose job is to provide crisis intervention and emergency services. But that institution would be so different that it doesn't even make sense to call it police. If anything, I'd like to continue what this "new" institution looks like that isn't called the police. Gucci Loafers fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Jun 18, 2020 |
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Jun 18, 2020 04:03
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Jaxyon posted:word? Law & Order is not a realistic and accurate portrayal of the American justice system. Watching crime dramas like Law & Order may slightly impact people's perception of how the police behave. Those two statements are not in opposition. I suggest that nearly everyone watching crime dramas would agree with that first statement and know that they're sensationalized bullshit, even if watching them does subconsciously change how they view the police. Is that clear enough?
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Jun 18, 2020 04:03
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CelestialScribe posted:I deleted the thread because it had personally identifiable information in there. Oh, sorry, I don't remember your exact income. I just remember it being high enough that you'd fall in the top single digit percentage of the wealthiest nation in human history, and yet you spent a many page thread whining about how afraid you were that your standard of living wouldn't be high enough if you moved here, haha. And now here you are, a wealthy foreigner, concern trolling a thread on police in a nation that you don't even live in. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 18, 2020 04:05
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litany of gulps posted:Oh, sorry, I don't remember your exact income. I just remember it being high enough that you'd fall in the top single digit percentage of the wealthiest nation in human history, and yet you spent a many page thread whining about how afraid you were that your standard of living wouldn't be high enough if you moved here, haha. And now here you are, a wealthy foreigner, concern trolling a thread on police in a nation that you don't even live in. This is just complete bullshit. Mods, we allowing this? Seriously? If I did this to anyone else in this thread, I'd get banned in seconds.
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Jun 18, 2020 04:06
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CelestialScribe posted:This is just complete bullshit. Mods, we allowing this? Seriously? If I did this to anyone else in this thread, I'd get banned in seconds. Cry more, Karen!
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Jun 18, 2020 04:07
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Trapick posted:Here are two statements. Since you posted that after I said: Jaxyon posted:We should move away from showing police in an inaccurate way to glorify them and justify their ridiculous budgets. I'll accept that you have revised your position and conceded to mine, since your post doesn't make any sense if you held your new position at that time
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Jun 18, 2020 04:08
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CelestialScribe posted:This is just complete bullshit. Mods, we allowing this? Seriously? If I did this to anyone else in this thread, I'd get banned in seconds. I don't see why pointing out accurate facts about you is off limits. Remember when you pulled this exact same routine with Bernie's taxes, and then again with Medicare 4 All? You are a habitual concern troll who is hear to clutch pearls and JAQ off about this issue and none of your questions are actually answerable because what you want is for a poster to describe in perfect detail exactly what the new system will be, which is impossible, and so you will just keep going "but what about crime, have you thought about crime?" over and over in different ways.
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Jun 18, 2020 04:09
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WampaLord posted:I don't see why pointing out accurate facts about you is off limits. They aren't accurate. quote:Remember when you pulled this exact same routine with Bernie's taxes, and then again with Medicare 4 All? If disagreeing with people about certain topics is a "routine", then maybe? Or it could be that people here just want to posters to agree with them instead of bringing up actual points of discussion. quote:You are a habitual concern troll who is hear to clutch pearls and JAQ off about this issue and none of your questions are actually answerable because what you want is for a poster to describe in perfect detail exactly what the new system will be, which is impossible, and so you will just keep going "but what about crime, have you thought about crime?" over and over in different ways. If you read the thread, that literally hasn't happened, but sure.
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Jun 18, 2020 04:11
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CelestialScribe posted:They aren't accurate. Liquid Communism posted:At which point you, someone making a top 10% of all humans alive today salary, have zero concerns. No, I just checked your old thread, and while you deleted all of your posts, there are tons of quoted references to you claiming to make 200k per year. Here's a quote from a forums moderator, for example.
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Jun 18, 2020 04:14
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litany of gulps posted:No, I just checked your old thread, and while you deleted all of your posts, there are tons of quoted references to you claiming to make 200k per year. Here's a quote from a forums moderator, for example. I don't make 200k per year. I received a potential job offer that would result in a (just under) 200k per year compensation (inc. base salary, bonus, equity, etc) if I took it. Those are two extraordinarily different things. Potentially earning $200k a year in the future doesn't make me wealthy now, does it?
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Jun 18, 2020 04:16
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CelestialScribe posted:I don't make 200k per year. I received a potential job offer that would result in a (just under) 200k per year compensation (inc. base salary, bonus, equity, etc) if I took it. Those are two extraordinarily different things. You're an upper class, privileged white man trolling a thread from another country that is attempting to talk about ways in which we can improve our clearly broken policing system. Of course an upper class white guy would choose "defend the police at all costs" as the hill to die on.
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Jun 18, 2020 04:25
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Jaxyon posted:I'll accept that you have revised your position and conceded to mine, since your post doesn't make any sense if you held your new position at that time
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Jun 18, 2020 04:26
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litany of gulps posted:You're an upper class, privileged white man trolling a thread from another country that is attempting to talk about ways in which we can improve our clearly broken policing system. Of course an upper class white guy would choose "defend the police at all costs" as the hill to die on. You're just lying about my positions in this thread now. Who's arguing in bad faith, again?
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Jun 18, 2020 04:26
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Trapick posted:This is the part I find incredibly spurious. Do you think Scalia was driven to think torture was good because he watched 24? I think it's infinitely more likely he thought that anyway (because he was a garbage human) and happened to like 24 and use it as an example. To say there's any causal link there is a really strong claim. Are you having a laugh?
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Jun 18, 2020 04:28
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CelestialScribe posted:If you read the thread, that literally hasn't happened, but sure. Thats exactly whats happened, you've managed to turn the last couple pages into an absurd argument about banning cop shows.
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Jun 18, 2020 04:30
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CelestialScribe posted:Mods? CelestialScribe posted:Mods? CelestialScribe posted:My precious post lmfao in the cop thread no less
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Jun 18, 2020 04:39
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Gabriel S. posted:If anything, I'd like to continue what this "new" institution looks like that isn't called the police. E-Tank posted:There's a few issues regarding this, in that what we *want* it to be would be changing much more than just replacing cops with something better. But building off that:
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Jun 18, 2020 04:46
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CelestialScribe posted:You're just lying about my positions in this thread now. Who's arguing in bad faith, again? There's not a word of anything I've said that's inaccurate, you lovely little baby.
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Jun 18, 2020 06:05
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litany of gulps posted:There's not a word of anything I've said that's inaccurate, you lovely little baby.
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Jun 18, 2020 06:43
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Anyone with any knowledge of Atlanta/Georgia regional politics have any educated guesses as to the likely near term consequences of the evident police walk off? I know that their union isn’t very strong formally because of Georgia law.Jaxyon posted:Sounds like somebody confused "abolish police" with "end any enforcement of laws" because they watched enough copaganda that they can only conceptualize law enforcement through our current model. Fill Baptismal fucked around with this message at 07:14 on Jun 18, 2020 |
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Jun 18, 2020 06:57
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Still Dismal posted:It’s not just people who defend the status quo that think this though. The number of people conflating “physical enforcement of laws” with “American policing as it currently exists” who are pro abolition/defunding/whatever is nuts. Why would you lock yourself into the position? Not that I've seen. What IS common seems to be liberals who agree with reform but cant wrap their head around the difference trying to walk back what they see as an extreme position.
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Jun 18, 2020 09:43
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E-Tank posted:I genuinely don't understand why people keep acting like this is some sort of gotcha. We recognize that something that nominally, should uphold communal defense and ensure people aren't getting hurt, but the modern concept of policing as we know it should be abolished because *holy* gently caress, they are murdering so many people for no loving reason. No it isn't like your analogy at all. Words have meaning. Impeaching the president is not the same thing as abolishing the presidency. Abolishing the presidency would mean to get rid of the office of President of the United States. E.g. when people say they want to abolish the death penalty, they don't weasel about the word abolish like what has been going in this thread. They mean that they don't want the government to sentence people to death as punishment for their crimes, period. Not, oh, they want to change how they sentence people to death, or oh, they want to reform the appeal process, or oh, they want to change the execution methods to ones which are less cruel, etc. etc. Multiple people have gone into this thread and have gotten confused about what posters have been posting about because they are using the word 'abolish' to not mean 'abolish'. This is not to mention that there are posters (maybe they are common here, maybe they aren't--it is hard to tell because some people in this thread post in an abstruse way) who are using the word 'abolish' to mean 'abolish' and actually think that we do not need people employed by the government to enforce laws and who also believe that the US could be run in the same way as a socialist commune of 500 people in the middle of nowhere. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 13:09 on Jun 18, 2020 |
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Jun 18, 2020 12:52
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Maybe they should actually read the thread then? It isn't that long and we clarify what we mean by abolish on virtually every page? But what else do you want to call it? Many of us are arguing that the police needs to be torn out root and branch and replaced entirely with something that only bears a superficial resemblance if that to what came before, what is that if not abolishing the police? You can get pedantic and say abolish an replace I guess, but abolish is still in there. Also, without anyone employed by the government to enforce laws the US would not be able to be run the same way as a socialist commune of 500 people in the middle of nowhere sure, but it would still be better than what we have now. Not enough better, hence the replace part of the argument, but better.
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Jun 18, 2020 14:04
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If you cut down a tall tree in the forest with the expectation of allowing the other foliage to grow into the space it makes, it would be a bit weird for someone to come along and say "well you didn't really cut down the tree because there's still stuff growing in the space where the tree was"
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Jun 18, 2020 14:07
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Right, but you'd say "Cut down that tree", not "Abolish forests", just like people are saying "Abolish the police", not "Abolish the (specific city) Police department".
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Jun 18, 2020 14:11
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I don't think "no one will ever enforce any laws" is strictly what most are suggesting here, though some may be, and the idea that any kind of law enforcement is exactly the same as the police seems to be a silly excuse to get pedantic.
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Jun 18, 2020 14:12
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enki42 posted:Right, but you'd say "Cut down that tree", not "Abolish forests", just like people are saying "Abolish the police", not "Abolish the (specific city) Police department". The problem is endemic across all police forces, therefore they all must go so that new and better alternatives can grow in their place.
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Jun 18, 2020 14:19
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Gabriel S. posted:Yes. I understand that the police won't exist but I don't think the phrase "Defund the Police" is going to work. In the Midwest up to quarter of emergency calls are for domestics typically a drunk husband beating his wife. This is so tiring that I have to post this every page, sometimes multiple times a page. Popularity is literally 0 of my concern. Abolish the police is the end goal that must what we strive for. Social change does not and should not wait for the policy documents to be completely laid out and 100% tested before being done. A person with a gun does not need to respond to the vast majority of what our current police do, and there is no chance of reform being a thing I can accept because reforming is pressupposing that the Policing is broken. Everyone has seen very plainly that Policing is working as intended and it cannot stand as is under it's goal and objective of incarcerating and terrorizing black people. Getting mired in phraseology is beyond stupid at this point. Any entity not specifically empowered to incarcerated and terrorize my people is better than the current one, even if it does nothing else than distribute justice in a manner that is actually proportionally distributed - like it could be called POLICE VERSION 2, and as long as my people stop dying in these streets at the rate that they are, it would be a vast improvement in our lives. I cannot believe at how hard this is to grasp and the level of pearl clutching that is going on. This thread was for discussing what that entity would look like, and in between the slog of shitposts asking questions that have been answered multiple times per page and folks just outright not having a discussion (STOP RESPONDING TO CS, HOLY poo poo), there has actually been some great proposals already posted. Read the goddamn thread and if there is something SPECIFIC you'd like to refute please loving cite it and leave a proper solution or change to that thing. BoldFace posted:There are small counties that have near zero reports of police brutality and deaths caused by police. Why should they be punished? I'd love to see the demographics of these counties, but I can almost guarantee they are very few black people that live there. This is not making the point you think it's making, this just reinforces the disproportionate injustice on one race vs another. Yuzenn fucked around with this message at 15:02 on Jun 18, 2020 |
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Jun 18, 2020 14:51
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OwlFancier posted:The problem is endemic across all police forces, therefore they all must go so that new and better alternatives can grow in their place. There are small counties that have near zero reports of police brutality and deaths caused by police. Why should they be punished?
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Jun 18, 2020 14:57
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