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Aside from some pretty retrograde views of masculinity and general reliance on shock value (especially the recurring theme of rape as hilarious comedy), what else has Ennis done to become persona non grata?
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Jun 17, 2020 17:19
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Rhyno posted:That's a stand up dude. gently caress professional relationships, you stand by your partner and cut ties with the pieces of poo poo. I know people who are good friends with McKelvie and I know those people would turn their back on him if he didn't stand with his partner. I think I can safely get rid of my Ellis Moon Knights, but Transmetropolitain is too good to get rid of even if the creator is a horrible person.
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Jun 17, 2020 17:47
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Big Bad Voodoo Lou posted:Aside from some pretty retrograde views of masculinity and general reliance on shock value (especially the recurring theme of rape as hilarious comedy), what else has Ennis done to become persona non grata? Honestly that's enough. I still love Preacher and like Hitman (love, minus the wankjob that are the SAS issues) but man a lot of his stuff is just awful. Including in both of those books.
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Jun 17, 2020 17:51
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Another huge Planetary fan who has to seriously weigh getting rid of my absolute editions, tpbs, single issues, and all the other Ellis one-offs like Apparat, Ministry of Space, etc. I usually don’t have issues cutting off creators revealed to be poo poo as if they didn’t exist, but a bit oof on this one. Unsurprised, although I figured Ellis was just a crotchety flirt, not a career-impacting sex pest (or worse).
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Jun 17, 2020 18:04
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patrick zircher is currently having a meltdown on twitter defending predatory behavior. starts about here https://twitter.com/PatrickZircher/status/1273098225755578369?s=20 e: chip pitches in his thoughts on cameron (short thread) https://twitter.com/zdarsky/status/1273283835845922817?s=20 site fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Jun 17, 2020 |
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Jun 17, 2020 19:07
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Zircher has been encroaching on CHUDery for a while so gently caress that guy.
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Jun 17, 2020 19:41
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Big Bad Voodoo Lou posted:Aside from some pretty retrograde views of masculinity and general reliance on shock value (especially the recurring theme of rape as hilarious comedy), what else has Ennis done to become persona non grata? That's most of it. Ennis has been quietly married for close to 20 years, rarely gives interviews, has no social media presence, and is notorious for spending most of his time at conventions in his hotel's bar trying every local microbrew. Everything objectionable about him is rather specifically about his work.
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Jun 17, 2020 19:46
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It's gonna be weird when it turns out Garth Ennis, Frank Miller and Alan Moore are the only straight male comics creators who haven't committed a sex crime.
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Jun 17, 2020 20:07
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Skwirl posted:Alan Moore
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Jun 17, 2020 20:10
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Moore is a sex weird but not a sex pest. He's not on the internet, doesn't go to conventions, and barely leaves his big spoopy house. He doesn't interact with fans or colleagues, so he has no opportunities to groom them or harass them or proposition them.
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Jun 17, 2020 20:14
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FMguru posted:Moore is a sex weird but not a sex pest. He's not on the internet, doesn't go to conventions, and barely leaves his big spoopy house. He doesn't interact with fans or colleagues, so he has no opportunities to groom them or harass them or proposition them. That's amazing by a lot of standards and I hope he stays like that (or at least within the frame).
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Jun 17, 2020 20:17
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FMguru posted:Moore is a sex weird but not a sex pest. He's not on the internet, doesn't go to conventions, and barely leaves his big spoopy house. He doesn't interact with fans or colleagues, so he has no opportunities to groom them or harass them or proposition them. Moore and his first wife were in an FFM three-way relationship for over 10 years, which ended as they inevitably seem to with his wife leaving him for their lover. He's long term married again now.
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Jun 17, 2020 20:24
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https://twitter.com/TessFowler/status/1273033029993324547?s=20
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Jun 17, 2020 20:54
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Skwirl posted:It's gonna be weird when it turns out Garth Ennis, Frank Miller and Alan Moore are the only straight male comics creators who haven't committed a sex crime. Unless something happens - and I'm tempting fate I know - I'm also going to figure Walt Simonson is okay. (Please, Lord, let Walt Simonson be okay.) Stan Sakai too for that matter.
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Jun 17, 2020 21:00
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Dawgstar posted:Unless something happens - and I'm tempting fate I know - I'm also going to figure Walt Simonson is okay. (Please, Lord, let Walt Simonson be okay.) Stan Sakai too for that matter. I was just going with the three writers that have the most sexual and gendered violence in their writing.
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Jun 17, 2020 21:05
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SUPERMAN'S GAL PAL posted:Another huge Planetary fan who has to seriously weigh getting rid of my absolute editions, tpbs, single issues, and all the other Ellis one-offs like Apparat, Ministry of Space, etc. I usually don’t have issues cutting off creators revealed to be poo poo as if they didn’t exist, but a bit oof on this one. Unsurprised, although I figured Ellis was just a crotchety flirt, not a career-impacting sex pest (or worse). It’s a weird thing to need to decide as a consumer as far as what I want to do about learning of problematic behavior of creators. Katie and Theramina both say they don’t want him cancelled, say he’s been a net good. “I want him to be healed and reformed. To. Do. The. loving. Work.” It’s a call for restorative justice. Which consumers really have no part in. Our choices are: consume or not consume a creator’s output. I dunno how to think about this.
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Jun 17, 2020 22:41
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Yeah. Restorative and transformative justice is something I believe in really strongly but it can be difficult to include in these conversations because as a bystander I am by definition not really part of the process. I like to believe that almost anyone can change and grow and make amends but unfortunately the closer someone is to a position of real power-- and the more they've been conditioned to think of their abuse of that power as earned or as ok-- the harder I think it is for them to take those steps.
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Jun 17, 2020 23:15
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Restorative justice is something I believe strongly in but the issue is that it almost always seems to be a case of "pretending to feel regret long enough for things to blow over." That isn't to say it never happens but it's hard to make it an aspirational goal when it gets abused over and over and over again. Especially in the case of prolific abusers where even if some victims feel that way nobody should feel obligated to forgive or excuse that behavior just because other people are. I won't lie it's pretty depressing how many things I care about have become so tainted but it's not really easy for me to escape that, especially when I see how that behavior influences their work. Even if I try to separate the author and the work it still inevitably makes me read certain things in new lights. I find it easier to just cut the stuff from my life than to try to justify why I need to keep something made by someone awful around. At least with entertainment I can cut myself off and just feel a bit down for a while, which is easier than dealing with awful family members/friends/co-workers/whatever.
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Jun 17, 2020 23:35
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There is no transformative justice to be found here because not only do the perpetrators by and large face no consequences, but the people (read: men) who hold all the cards are generally maybe not well aware, but have at least some knowledge of what is occurring and do not see a problem with it. This is like what the 5th or 6th time we've had this conversation in the last year and besides berganza can anybody even point to a difference in the industry? What is the justice to seek here anyways, that Ellis goes around to editors and tells them well i sexually harassed these women and now I'm using my clout to pressure you into giving them a job? I don't mean to be snippy but in cases like these i guess i don't understand what giving someone like a chance to make amends in a tangible way would look like site fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Jun 17, 2020 |
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Jun 17, 2020 23:51
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Skwirl posted:It's gonna be weird when it turns out Garth Ennis, Frank Miller and Alan Moore are the only straight male comics creators who haven't committed a sex crime.
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Jun 18, 2020 00:01
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I don’t think we can know what restorative justice looks like from afar, because as How Wonderful says, we’re outsiders to all of this. Our interaction is as spectators and consumers. We each have to make our peace with what we’re willing to consume. I’m still going to buy Fantagraphics books despite thinking Groth likely is a piece of poo poo because on balance I think the work they produce and the creators they work with are worth supporting. I’m probably not going to sell my transmet books. I’m not going to buy new Warren Ellis work, or Cameron Stewart work, just like I won’t support new Brandon Graham or Roc Upchurch work. I hope Ellis can do things to be better in the future, but I don’t know that I would be willing to change my stance on supporting his work.
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Jun 18, 2020 00:06
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The only guy who would surprise me would be Mark Millar because I don't think his programming allows for anything but the cold-blooded pursuit of more movie deals.
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Jun 18, 2020 00:12
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Nessus posted:What about Claremont or Morrison? I know Claremont is in the weirdo zone, Morrison too perhaps. So far all I've heard about Claremont is that he frequented fetish clubs in NY and was into BDSM. Having a fetish is super not the same as being a sex creep, c'mon guys.
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Jun 18, 2020 00:15
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Nessus posted:What about Claremont or Morrison? I know Claremont is in the weirdo zone, Morrison too perhaps. Claremont has had some pretty weird rumors about him for years, but they were all about him hiring sex workers, which is barely worth commenting on at all in 2020. I also believe that most of them turned out to be the result of a whisper campaign by an angry former fan. Morrison has kept a tight lid on his personal life for quite a while, although he's still married to Kristan, who figured prominently in a lot of his autobiographical essays back in the day. As far as I know, the worst thing anyone's ever said about him was Greg Rucka complaining that his brogue is completely indecipherable by anyone who isn't also from Scotland. Ezis posted:The only guy who would surprise me would be Mark Millar because I don't think his programming allows for anything but the cold-blooded pursuit of more movie deals. Millar's in the Stephen King Zone, where his work is frequently twisted enough that I can totally believe he's a normal, boring guy in real life. Apparently he has quite a few kids. He did back Brexit, though.
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Jun 18, 2020 00:39
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Vincent posted:So far all I've heard about Claremont is that he frequented fetish clubs in NY and was into BDSM. Having a fetish is super not the same as being a sex creep, c'mon guys. Claremont was the guy who made the response issue to Avengers #200, which from what I have seen is one long sustained "Why the gently caress did you guys think that was a good idea?!" I heard it said better a Pervert with limits than a Jerk with none. Wanderer posted:Millar's in the Stephen King Zone, where his work is frequently twisted enough that I can totally believe he's a normal, boring guy in real life. Apparently he has quite a few kids. Wasn't Stephen King in the 80s on so much drugs and alcohol that he couldn't remember writing most of his output then?
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Jun 18, 2020 00:47
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Unlucky7 posted:Wasn't Stephen King in the 80s on so much drugs and alcohol that he couldn't remember writing most of his output then? The story from King's On Writing is that he was so hosed up in the early '80s that he actively does not remember writing Cujo. The rest of his work in the period makes a lot more sense when you're aware of his addiction problems at the time, particularly The Stand and Tommyknockers and especially It; they're all rampaging cocaine ideas. He also talks enough about his drug intake in his previous non-fiction book, Danse Macabre, that it's hard not to read into it. The big takeaway there, though, is that King is part of a rich tradition of horror and crime writers who lead really boring pleasant lives, despite the content of their creative output. Even during King's most drug-crazed period, he was still mostly watching horror movies, playing guitar, and writing a hundred pages a month.
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Jun 18, 2020 01:02
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Nessus posted:What about Claremont or Morrison? I know Claremont is in the weirdo zone, Morrison too perhaps. I was literally just picking the three names I thought would be funniest that didn't currently have any accusations of personal misconduct I was aware of. I almost said Chuck Austen.
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Jun 18, 2020 01:05
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Ezis posted:The only guy who would surprise me would be Mark Millar because I don't think his programming allows for anything but the cold-blooded pursuit of more movie deals. I've met Millar a couple of times and used to be a regular on his forum. In person he's a funny, likeable guy who isn't afraid to send himself up, which is why I was so disappointed when I learned he'd falsely claimed credit for writing The Secret Service. But yeah, he is very happily married.
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Jun 18, 2020 01:06
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Did he not right that one? It's what the Kingsman movies was based on right?
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Jun 18, 2020 01:34
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Skwirl posted:I was literally just picking the three names I thought would be funniest that didn't currently have any accusations of personal misconduct I was aware of. I almost said Chuck Austen. I think given the context this is kind of a dumb thing to joke about.
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Jun 18, 2020 01:52
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How Wonderful! posted:I think given the context this is kind of a dumb thing to joke about. I regretted it as soon as the first person was like "bbbbuttt what about this white straight dude i like."
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Jun 18, 2020 02:36
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yeah that's totally the reason it was a bad idea
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Jun 18, 2020 02:40
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https://twitter.com/AvivaMaiArtzy/status/1273356869478817798?s=20
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Jun 18, 2020 03:06
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SUPERMAN'S GAL PAL posted:Another huge Planetary fan who has to seriously weigh getting rid of my absolute editions, tpbs, single issues, and all the other Ellis one-offs like Apparat, Ministry of Space, etc. I usually don’t have issues cutting off creators revealed to be poo poo as if they didn’t exist, but a bit oof on this one. Unsurprised, although I figured Ellis was just a crotchety flirt, not a career-impacting sex pest (or worse). I don't own any of his comics, but I'm gonna go uninstall Hostile Waters: Antaeus Rising now, as he wrote it.  Goddamnit, I loved that game. StratGoatCom fucked around with this message at 03:22 on Jun 18, 2020 |
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Jun 18, 2020 03:20
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doingitwrong posted:It’s a weird thing to need to decide as a consumer as far as what I want to do about learning of problematic behavior of creators. Katie and Theramina both say they don’t want him cancelled, say he’s been a net good. “I want him to be healed and reformed. To. Do. The. loving. Work.” It’s a call for restorative justice. Which consumers really have no part in. Our choices are: consume or not consume a creator’s output. How Wonderful! posted:Yeah. Restorative and transformative justice is something I believe in really strongly but it can be difficult to include in these conversations because as a bystander I am by definition not really part of the process. I like to believe that almost anyone can change and grow and make amends but unfortunately the closer someone is to a position of real power-- and the more they've been conditioned to think of their abuse of that power as earned or as ok-- the harder I think it is for them to take those steps. ImpAtom posted:Restorative justice is something I believe strongly in but the issue is that it almost always seems to be a case of "pretending to feel regret long enough for things to blow over." That isn't to say it never happens but it's hard to make it an aspirational goal when it gets abused over and over and over again. Especially in the case of prolific abusers where even if some victims feel that way nobody should feel obligated to forgive or excuse that behavior just because other people are. I really like this framework for how to think about restorative justice in this context. It emphasizes four elements: (1) has the person involved been punished in some way that deters future bad behavior; (2) has the person made restitution, both to the person they wronged and to the community as a whole; (3) remorse (is the person involved actually sorry and are they making an actual effort to be better in the future); and (4) penance (is the person taking affirmative steps to make the world better, aside from just fixing their previous mistakes). I think this is a good roadmap for what somebody can do if they actually want to make up for their mistakes, and also provides a good checklist to evaluate whether people are actually seriously trying to get better, or are just mouthing empty words. I also like it because it's explicitly focused on how we as the public should think about these things, while leaving the space for the individuals who've been wronged to feel and act however they want to in response. https://www.currentaffairs.org/2017/11/can-penitent-sexual-predators-ever-be-granted-redemption
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Jun 18, 2020 06:45
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Thanks for this.
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Jun 18, 2020 10:55
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Dreqqus posted:Did he not right that one? It's what the Kingsman movies was based on right? It is, and he didn't. All the Secret Service stories were written by Rob Williams, who is credited as writer on the sequels. I do believe that Millar had the original idea, though, so it's more of him trying to be a Stan Lee for his Millarworld line than outright theft. He's also stopped doing it since the Netflix deal, probably because one of the terms would be that if this happened again then all the projects would be shitcanned.
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Jun 18, 2020 11:33
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Jedit posted:It is, and he didn't. All the Secret Service stories were written by Rob Williams, who is credited as writer on the sequels. That actually explains a lot. I did think the original Secret Service miniseries had a surprisingly upbeat ending for a Millar book.
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Jun 18, 2020 21:32
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Wanderer posted:That actually explains a lot. I did think the original Secret Service miniseries had a surprisingly upbeat ending for a Millar book. Yeah, I'm not forgetting that one for a while.
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Jun 18, 2020 23:55
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RevKrule posted:You mean it's missing the incest baby with abortion-trigger bomb? Wasn't that the one with the all white joker?
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Jun 18, 2020 23:57
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