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hambeet posted:Hey was the Tiberian arc planned from the beginning, with like the Scrinn and all that, or did they just make it up as they went like Lost? To a degree there was some planning, or at least the games and writers respected the previous games every time they went forward from Dawn to Sun, and from Sun to Wars. In Dawn it was planned that Tiberium came from outer space and Kane was enigmatic/immortal. The supposed "Scrin" ship in one corner of a GDI map turned out to be a wonky crashed helicopter. In Sun it was definitely planned there would be an alien force at some point with the Scrin vessel, and they ran with it with Wars by introducing the Scrin as a third army. In Tiberium Disappointment I have no idea what happened because I got the multiplayer beta and then did my level best to suppress those memories, never paid for/played the proper thing.
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Jun 19, 2020 09:49
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Tiberian Sun was not well received on release because a lot of features that were promised never made it into the final game. A casualty of short development time. Think I was still buying game magazines at the time and hadn't bought an issue which previewed the game, so I thought it was grand. The only bit I'm really sad was cut was a system for carrying troops over from one mission to the next, similiar to what was implemented in Dawn of War 2 Dark Crusade.
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Jun 19, 2020 10:29
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I remember there being massive hype around TS (omg voxels!!!!!) but kid me didn't care at all once it came out. The atmosphere and setting is probably my favourite, especially in the expansion when tiberium's fuckery with native ecosystems really goes into overdrive. At one point I think it's mentioned that intercontinental shipping is impossible because of tiberium goop in the oceans.
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Jun 19, 2020 10:35
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I definitely think TS has my favorite aesthetic of the whole C&C series. I love the way the future tech and units look, and I love the whole bleak, pre-apocalypse (or maybe during-apocalypse) theme of everything. It’s still my least favorite of all the pre-Generals games for two reasons: an extremely brown color palette and the gameplay being a complete and utter slog. Everything moves at a glacial pace—the units moved slowly, the missions took forever and often demanded that you destroy every single laser fence post to win, and the maps were like at least twice the size of anything in RA. Every base-building mission played out the same: take forever to build up a slow-assed army, have it leisurely crawl over to the other side of a giant brown map, then ever-so-slowly dismantle the enemy base (don’t forget the fence posts!). When the devs for RA2 said that they emphasized speed in the lead-up to the games release I thought to myself “thank god they’re doing the polar opposite of TS” tldr; I like everything about TS except actually playing it 
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Jun 19, 2020 12:14
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TS had dynamic lighting. Notice how RA2 didn't?
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Jun 19, 2020 12:35
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Prism weapons aren't dynamic lighting?
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Jun 19, 2020 12:39
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Red Alert led to either Red Alert 2 if the Allies won or Tiberian Dawn of the Soviets won, but the cool theories about where c&c was going before the Westwood was taken over by EA involved how Kane and maybe also Yuri possibly time-traveled back to initiate the events of Red Alert and Red Alert 2 in the first place in a way where causality paradoxically loops through both of the different timelines.Alkydere posted:The supposed "Scrin" ship in one corner of a GDI map turned out to be a wonky crashed helicopter.  With that exception, this remaster has been pretty much perfect. Switching back and forth, the new graphics absolutely look like the intent of the original artists. The bonus features and things like the N64 and PSX missions are just a ridiculous level of fan service. gary oldmans diary fucked around with this message at 12:57 on Jun 19, 2020 |
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Jun 19, 2020 12:52
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I'm replaying parts of TS now and the speed is really off, yeah. If you put it on medium everything goes really frikkin slow. Put it on fast or faster and the lack of attack-move combined with fragile units really fucks you over sometimes, leading to massive losses when you're not looking for a moment. This lead to spamming durable units instead of toying around with the rest, so it's ticktanks / titans all the way, with some artillery/air to back it up. I do think tib sun has the best atmosphere of all the games by far. It's the most serious entry in the series and the world feels properly hosed. The ambient 'storytelling' with the villages and tiberian wildlife is very cool. The scripting feels more advanced than even the latter games, like when NOD troopers are loving around with the tib fiends and you kill them and the good doggos help you out... nothing like that has been in the games ever since. CnC3's world and cutscenes feels like disneyland by comparison, even though the world is literally ending and being ripped apart by the time that game is over. Even the settings deep in the red zone feel less hostile compared to most tib sun maps!
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Jun 19, 2020 12:56
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Spookydonut posted:TS had dynamic lighting. Is that why TS played at a snail’s pace and RA2 didn’t?
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Jun 19, 2020 12:59
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Fruits of the sea posted:Tiberian Sun was not well received on release because a lot of features that were promised never made it into the final game. A casualty of short development time. According to the post mortem they wrote about it it wasn't due to dev time, it's just that the features didn't work and several of them had been announced without checking whether they were feasible at all, Molyneux-style. As for the "short" development time, they extened it by nine months, for a total of three years which hardly seems short for the time (Starcraft took the same time), and it still wasn't enough. They don't say it was too short for what they planned, they say they planned things that they thought would be trivial and weren't (How complicated would it be to switch to isometric? Surely there can't be that many bits of the engine hardcoded to assume screen aligned tiles? Right? Right?).
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Jun 19, 2020 13:17
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I also remember TS being considered a disappointment on release; was part of that because people were still riding high on StarCraft?
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Jun 19, 2020 13:25
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Chev posted:How complicated would it be to switch to isometric? Surely there can't be that many bits of the engine hardcoded to assume screen aligned tiles? Right? Right?). Didn’t Starcraft have some setbacks in development as well? I remember seeing some old screenshots where it looked a lot more like Warcraft 2.
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Jun 19, 2020 13:29
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TibSun will always be my favorite, even if it has a raft of fairly wide-ranging flaws.
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Jun 19, 2020 13:30
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Orv posted:TibSun will always be my favorite, even if it has a raft of fairly wide-ranging flaws. Same, OP. It also has the most memorable scene of the entire series in the NOD campaign.
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Jun 19, 2020 13:46
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Very happy to hear that my 5ish year old brain was not alone in reading that sprite as being some sort of alien craft or pod. I ALWAYS wanted to know more about it or know what it was. Also, TS is my fave moodwise and really want it remastered. I played through a lot of it and Firewall a few years ago, absolutely agree that it is slow paced, but so is a lot of the rest of the series. RA2 plays better for sure, but the GI Joe style cartooney anesthetics puts me off it.
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Jun 19, 2020 13:53
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TS is definitely sluggish but the image of titans plodding through tiberium fields in mutated wastelands is a strong one. I’ve played better RTS’ but TS and Company of Heroes are the only ones that really sold me on their setting.
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Jun 19, 2020 14:00
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I was one of the kids who really, REALLY bought into the hype of TS. The hype machine was incredibly well oiled even back then, countless magazine previews talked about how revolutionary the game will be, with all these new features. My family actually went on vacation during the release window and I nagged and cried enough for them to cut it short by one day, I was that kind of lovely brat back then cause I couldnt wait another fukken day to play the ~best strategy game ever~ The disappointment was... incredible. The game was good, but just that. I still feel poo poo about my temper tantrum to this day and thats why I have a love/hate relationship with the game pretty much. I loved the expansion a lot, but the base game leaves a lot to desire. Edit: The straw that broke the camels back for me as a kid were TV ads for the game that ran while we were on said vacation. I HAD to play this game, right this minute. 
FrickenMoron fucked around with this message at 14:05 on Jun 19, 2020 |
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Jun 19, 2020 14:02
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I started Twisted Insurrection to scratch that TS itch, and it absolutely is both too slow and too fast. Infantry do good damage and are worth building, however, flame tanks and the wolverine-equivalent mechs will absolutely wreck their poo poo in seconds if you don't click fast enough.
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Jun 19, 2020 14:07
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TS as has been said was insanely atmospheric, but my biggest issue was that some of the individual units are just... ugly. Like the Titan is a fantastic design, but its actual representation in-game is not so much. Similar problems with Nod's flame tank and their stolen Scrin fighter that I'm blanking on the name of. I missed out on all the hype because at the time I wasn't paying attention to any of that stuff so I wasn't really let down at all, and I honestly enjoyed the slower pace (I always liked the Tiberian games more than their RA counterparts), but man that game was just hard to look at sometimes. Well, that and hunter-killers. gently caress those things.
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Jun 19, 2020 14:10
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It's really weird how fast/slow the early C&C games are. If you look the other way for a second your 100-strong infantry force will be squished by a light tank. But on the other hand, it'll take literaly minutes for that infantry force to cross some campaign maps on the default speed setting (medium). Rocket soldiers absolutely decimate armour in TS, but flames or grenades will kill them basically instantly. If you mix the wrong infantry the whole group explodes if the wrong enemy sneezes on them. If you mine out most tib/ore after the first like 8 minutes your income slows to a crawl. Units get damaged real quick but healing is either really fiddly (repair pads) or really slow (medics). Air units are fragile as hell but if you mass enough you can shortcut basically every mission by deleting their con yard with them. and if you put the game on the fastest setting one misclick will lead to your entire army walking through an entrenched position and dying in a manner of seconds. Still, this poo poo owns. I'm still hoping an attack-move mod will come out for CnC Remastered though, it would solve a lot of my problems with fiddly controls.
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Jun 19, 2020 14:15
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gary oldmans diary posted:Red Alert led to either Red Alert 2 if the Allies won or Tiberian Dawn of the Soviets won, but the cool theories about where c&c was going before the Westwood was taken over by EA involved how Kane and maybe also Yuri possibly time-traveled back to initiate the events of Red Alert and Red Alert 2 in the first place in a way where causality paradoxically loops through both of the different timelines. Also as a kid I was convinced that what you saw on the map was a crashed alien ship. It never occurred to me that it was an Orca, until the remaster. But then it raised further questions. Like they are all over the map on the GDI mission where you use the Orca for the first time. But the map is already littered with crashed hover fighters. Is this where all the test ones crashed? How lethal is this craft? Is this why we never see Morello again? I also loved that someone made a mod to change the Sprite for the remake into really looking like a crashed space craft.
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Jun 19, 2020 14:34
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I think Starcraft was the first "modern" RTS where the basic marine was kind of powerful but also still sort of squishy, but not enough to be useless. It also helps that units in SC react a lot better to microing, especially in TD and RA the 5 per tile thing leads to weird issues where riflemen in the back of a tile cant shoot at enemies that are attacking the tile they're in because their range is abysmal.
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Jun 19, 2020 14:40
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Sheen Sheen posted:Is that why TS played at a snail’s pace and RA2 didn’t? Doubt it. But I think it was the game's fairly muted palette that allowed the lighting to pop the way it did in Tib Sun- it would just have gotten lost in RA2's riot of colour. Samopsa posted:I do think tib sun has the best atmosphere of all the games by far. It's the most serious entry in the series and the world feels properly hosed. The ambient 'storytelling' with the villages and tiberian wildlife is very cool. The scripting feels more advanced than even the latter games, like when NOD troopers are loving around with the tib fiends and you kill them and the good doggos help you out... nothing like that has been in the games ever since. Orv posted:TibSun will always be my favorite, even if it has a raft of fairly wide-ranging flaws. Wrr posted:Also, TS is my fave moodwise and really want it remastered. power crystals posted:TS as has been said was insanely atmospheric  FrickenMoron posted:I think Starcraft was the first "modern" RTS where the basic marine was kind of powerful but also still sort of squishy, but not enough to be useless. It also helps that units in SC react a lot better to microing, especially in TD and RA the 5 per tile thing leads to weird issues where riflemen in the back of a tile cant shoot at enemies that are attacking the tile they're in because their range is abysmal. I've been wondering if C&C's squishy infantry wouldn't have better suited a game with something like Sup Com's scale. Something where you're regularly pushing hundreds or thousands of the guys around the map and designing elaborate production chains to pump them out en masse.
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Jun 19, 2020 14:49
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Fruits of the sea posted:
 This shot? I remember it from some magazine.
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Jun 19, 2020 14:52
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Jesus gently caress, my eyes.
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Jun 19, 2020 14:53
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Being able to run over infantry in tanks seems a rare thing in RTS in general e: 
Milo and POTUS fucked around with this message at 14:57 on Jun 19, 2020 |
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Jun 19, 2020 14:54
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hambeet posted:
This shot absolutely was in magazines here too back in the day. I still don't get the colors, It feels almost EGA.
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Jun 19, 2020 15:03
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like you can see all the elements.. the larvae, the overloads, hive, etc.
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Jun 19, 2020 15:05
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hambeet posted:
Wowzers!
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Jun 19, 2020 15:08
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KOGAHAZAN!! posted:Doubt it. But I think it was the game's fairly muted palette that allowed the lighting to pop the way it did in Tib Sun- it would just have gotten lost in RA2's riot of colour I don’t think TS’s “dynamic lighting” really enhanced the way the game looked at all. Like, my first reaction to the original quote of “notice how TS had dynamic lighting and RA2 didn’t” was “....no?”
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Jun 19, 2020 15:16
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TS lighting was supposed to have more game mechanics, stealth options with those light towers on base entrances playing a larger role in the game.
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Jun 19, 2020 15:23
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The magazine ads for TS doctored in fake lighting effects so their actual presence in the game was a little underwhelming
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Jun 19, 2020 15:24
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Sheen Sheen posted:I don’t think TS’s “dynamic lighting” really enhanced the way the game looked at all. Like, my first reaction to the original quote of “notice how TS had dynamic lighting and RA2 didn’t” was “....no?” My memories of Tib Sun are dominated by the sickly green glow of the tib fields lighting post-apocalyptic gloom. Thinking about it, I suppose I don't know if that was actually dynamic or baked. Still, gorgeous aesthetic.
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Jun 19, 2020 15:34
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Yeah TS might have been flawed but as a kid it was amazing. I think RA2 edged it out a bit in terms of gameplay for me, but the aesthetic, even now, feels pretty unique. Someone said it was 'during-apocalypse' as opposed to post, which sums it up nicely. It wasn't the usual run down, ruined scrap aesthetic of the many post apocalypse games, but it really did sell the feel of the world crumbling.
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Jun 19, 2020 15:48
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hambeet posted:
Spawn more 8-Bit Overlords!
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Jun 19, 2020 15:52
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Also, it's good to remember that many PCs couldn't run TS properly at launch. It was a massive resource hog for its time. So, you had "incomplete" features, a surprisingly ugly game compared to Starcraft and other contemporary games, coupled with really bad performance. The hype worked against it as well, once people started playing it and proper reviews came out.
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Jun 19, 2020 15:55
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drunkill posted:TS lighting was supposed to have more game mechanics, stealth options with those light towers on base entrances playing a larger role in the game. I do remember reading about this. In general a feel like a lot of games that came out back then ended up being significantly different than video game magazine previews would have you believe (like those crazy StarCraft images), more so than today. I think Fallout Tactics came out in the late 90s/early 2000s, and I distinctly remember in-game images on the back of the box and in magazines that 100% did not show up in the game (weapons, armor, and character models that were probably from an earlier build of the game). I also remember the manual for C&C Generals said that the Chinese basic infantry had a bayonet melee attack that definitely was not in the final game.
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Jun 19, 2020 15:59
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"Gloomy" is definitely how I remember TS. Re-reading the high-level story of the Tiberium Series and what i remember of TS definitely feels in line with the peril/direness of what was happening. Like in particular a memory of that game that has stuck with me was the ion storms. They helped sell the "poo poo has gone kinda bad" vibe. But I also specifically remember the mission where you play as GDI during an ion storm and your tech tree is limited since ion storms prevent hover vehicles from working (and aircraft as well?) ...but by this point in the campaign, I had started cheating since I wasn't good enough to beat missions legit, and many missions ago I used an editor to make hover MRLS insanely strong (after a unit mission gave me mostly just hover MRLS) but in subsequent missions I think I used the editor to also make it so I could always build my OP hover MRLS, including in the aforementioned ion storm mission. Only they'd come out of the weapons factory and immediately get sucked to the ground. On the upside, I had very powerful base defenses at that point.
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Jun 19, 2020 16:01
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The weather and environmental effects of Tiberian Sun were really good but largely unexplored. Likewise, the amphibious units were cool but there was barely a use for that functionality most of the time. C&C 3 moved away from those elements, and maybe that was for the best because if you can't fully deliver on them, then they come off as weak. But it'd be nice to get a Tiberium game that had the best of both C&C 3 and TS.
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Jun 19, 2020 16:19
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I will never be able to tolerate the sound effect used for missiles/rockets in Tiberian Sun.
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Jun 19, 2020 16:59
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