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Inspector Gesicht posted:It's incredibly hilarious that they introduce an evil Desmond from the expanded universe as a rival, but his only purpose is to get his rear end kicked and have no effect on the plot. AC does some really dumb stuff with its expanded universe, like wrapping up the whole Juno plot (that starts at the end of AC3) in a comic approximately nobody read.
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Jun 19, 2020 23:30
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Continuing my Shantae playthrough with 1/2 Genie Hero. It's also a solid game, but playing all three newer ones in quick succession really makes it stand out how much this one leans on much longer individual rooms combined with hazards that instantly dump you all the way back to the start. Like, lasers and bottomless pits are standard platformer design, but they're tough to enjoy when slipping up sends you back through the whole level for the fifth time rather than just setting you back before the hazard.
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Jun 19, 2020 23:54
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Ugh, The Last of Us 2 does that Batman Arkham Origins thing of skills that have to be unlocked one after another instead of letting you pick things you actually want. It's weird that it's like that, with how many accessibility options they've put into it.
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Jun 20, 2020 00:20
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RareAcumen posted:Ugh, The Last of Us 2 does that Batman Arkham Origins thing of skills that have to be unlocked one after another instead of letting you pick things you actually want. Don't know about tlou2 but Arkham Origins had a reason for it, people kept complaining that they died in the Arkham games but refused to buy the health upgrades so Origins forced you to. A better option would have been to go back to the old rpg style of separate stat and skill points or just have the health go up whenever er you bought any skill.
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Jun 20, 2020 00:36
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Doctor Spaceman posted:AC does some really dumb stuff with its expanded universe, like wrapping up the whole Juno plot (that starts at the end of AC3) in a comic approximately nobody read. Be fair, that just means that all the people who cared about the Juno plot read it.
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Jun 20, 2020 00:38
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Hel posted:Don't know about tlou2 but Arkham Origins had a reason for it, people kept complaining that they died in the Arkham games but refused to buy the health upgrades so Origins forced you to. A better option would have been to go back to the old rpg style of separate stat and skill points or just have the health go up whenever er you bought any skill. Or maybe a respec option.
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Jun 20, 2020 00:47
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Hel posted:Don't know about tlou2 but Arkham Origins had a reason for it, people kept complaining that they died in the Arkham games but refused to buy the health upgrades so Origins forced you to. A better option would have been to go back to the old rpg style of separate stat and skill points or just have the health go up whenever er you bought any skill. Is that why? Good lord. Well, at least if it was in reaction to something like that I can fault them less because until now it had been a baffling decision. But man, if you find yourself needing more health as a player than invest in some drat health.
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Jun 20, 2020 00:54
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Zanzibar Ham posted:I'm at the postgame of Hack GU's 3rd volume now. You can get a number of optional party members, and for some reason one of them is ridiculously low level, like volume 2 level, and it doesn't really make much sense. Sure, the character had to stop playing for a while, but another character that took a break around the same time came back at close to my level, so why the disparity? The character isn't even very interesting, and I'd rather have had instead one of the people that'd hang around with this character since at least they had actual character growth (if only in optional content). I assume you're talking about Alkaid? if so, then the reason is because they were in a plot coma and since they were in your party back in volume 2 the game just uses their old data. It's really dumb and no one likes it, which means most people wind up not using them ever again unless they really, really, like them because grinding their levels up sucks.
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Jun 20, 2020 00:58
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A lot of gamers (Jesus, I hate that term) don't realize that they suck at some games and just bash their heads against a problem until they force their way through, and then blame the game for their dumbass behavior. I recently played through the first two Arkham games and I got my rear end kicked a lot, so I bought health upgrades, and tried to get better at combat (as in, not trying to beat every opponent to their attack and realizing that my combo level wasn't all that important).
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Jun 20, 2020 01:02
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Lobok posted:Is that why? Good lord. Well, at least if it was in reaction to something like that I can fault them less because until now it had been a baffling decision. But man, if you find yourself needing more health as a player than invest in some drat health. Yeah it's an interesting one. Personally health options are generally the last ones I go for unless, as you say, I'm having trouble. I'm much more likely to go for an option that unlocks a cool new move or functionality though. The problem with the Arkham Origins method was you literally had to get the health ones first so it was really boring to me. As someone else said they should have just had the initial first couple upgrades give a health upgrade along with whatever else they gave and made the tree similar to City. Leavemywife posted:A lot of gamers (Jesus, I hate that term) don't realize that they suck at some games and just bash their heads against a problem until they force their way through, and then blame the game for their dumbass behavior. I recently played through the first two Arkham games and I got my rear end kicked a lot, so I bought health upgrades, and tried to get better at combat (as in, not trying to beat every opponent to their attack and realizing that my combo level wasn't all that important). Well there's also the problem that a lot of people will play a game in a way that is very unfun in the name of efficiency or whatever and then say the game is boring. Personally I always give everything a go in a game with the option to do so (if it's not forcing you to pick a class at the start or whatever) and try not to get stuck in a rut, even if whatever I'm doing is working. Obviously an ideal game will try and push you out of your comfort zone and mix it up rather than rely on you to do it but some people will resist any attempt at that so seems tough for devs sometimes. Luckily I don't make games so I don't have to worry about it really. Seems like a tricky balance. thebardyspoon has a new favorite as of 01:07 on Jun 20, 2020 |
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Jun 20, 2020 01:03
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Sunswipe posted:Be fair, that just means that all the people who cared about the Juno plot read it. I dunno, the games generated some interest for me, just not enough to look at any media outside of the games (see also: FFXV, Mass Effect). I was a bit disappointing when the whole thing just stopped showing up without any resolution. Lobok posted:Is that why? Good lord. Well, at least if it was in reaction to something like that I can fault them less because until now it had been a baffling decision. But man, if you find yourself needing more health as a player than invest in some drat health. The Souls/Bloodborne games also have this problem. New players always want to hit harder, equip fancier gear, and cast fancier spells, but straight up HP is consistently one of the most powerful stats and not investing in it is practically a challenge run. The Moon Monster has a new favorite as of 01:09 on Jun 20, 2020 |
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Jun 20, 2020 01:06
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Nuebot posted:I assume you're talking about Alkaid? if so, then the reason is because they were in a plot coma and since they were in your party back in volume 2 the game just uses their old data. It's really dumb and no one likes it, which means most people wind up not using them ever again unless they really, really, like them because grinding their levels up sucks. No, I'm talking about Bordeaux, who's never in your party before the postgame. But here's the thing, Alkaid, who was in your party before, rejoins the team at around level ~120. And both of them help in the final battle, even if the former only in a cutscene, which wouldn't be possible if any of them were at volume 2 levels, as they'd get one-shot by volume 3 endgame mobs. So the player joining postgame at around level 80 makes 0 sense. e: also, Alkaid is actually really cool, if they were given to me post-game at a low level I'd be fine with helping them get back to appropriate levels Zanzibar Ham has a new favorite as of 01:15 on Jun 20, 2020 |
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Jun 20, 2020 01:09
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Arkham Origins had a shitload of issues, more than I can forgive, and I'm the pedant who loved Bioshock 2 and The Outer Worlds. The first knock against the combat is the removal of animation-canceling. Now you can't cancel your attacks mid-animation to counter, so you WILL get punched in the face. The second knock is the shock glove upgrade which completely trivializes all melee combat in the last third. And gently caress the missable challenge system.
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Jun 20, 2020 01:13
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The Arkham health chat reminded me of my time with Jak 3. I love all the Jak and Daxter games because I am some sorta wierdo, and spent my first playthrough of Jak 3 spending all my upgrades on the directors commentary and artbooks and deleted scenes and whatnot. Holy poo poo was the second playthrough easier when I actually bought weapon, health and skill upgrades
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Jun 20, 2020 01:27
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I spent most of FF7 doing everything exactly correctly except with my timing slightly off causing every boss to take basically no damage and taking 15+ minutes to die without ever being an actual threat.
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Jun 20, 2020 02:40
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Doctor Spaceman posted:AC does some really dumb stuff with its expanded universe, like wrapping up the whole Juno plot (that starts at the end of AC3) in a comic approximately nobody read. They still hinted at it in the games though (Notes from the Gray in Rogue, some stuff at the end of Syndicate), but since nobody read the comic it was just vague nonsense.
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Jun 20, 2020 04:18
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I'm one of those weird people that gets bored as soon as the discovery/exploration phase of games is over and it moves on to picking up 98,000 collectibles and grinding for levels/gear/stats. I haven't beaten a JRPG since Grandia II because I was so disappointed with the ending vs. the plot that now I just don't bother playing the final dungeon of anything anymore. (e: I lied, I beat DQXI because the plot was so hilarious I had to see how they hosed up saving the world next, and DQ Builders 2 because...uh, it let me build a skytrain) I love citybuilders with every fiber of my dumb Lego-obsessed inner 8-year-old heart but once I unlock everything interesting, which may not even be everything, I've reached my goal and I'll go start over on a new map why yes I could use a bucket full of Adderall, why do you ask
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Jun 20, 2020 06:55
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To be fair to Grandia 2 you end it fighting Butterfly Pope in the putrid body of a living god. That's pretty cool.
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Jun 20, 2020 07:03
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Hel posted:Don't know about tlou2 but Arkham Origins had a reason for it, people kept complaining that they died in the Arkham games but refused to buy the health upgrades so Origins forced you to. thebardyspoon posted:Personally health options are generally the last ones I go for unless, as you say, I'm having trouble. I'm much more likely to go for an option that unlocks a cool new move or functionality though. thebardyspoon posted:Well there's also the problem that a lot of people will play a game in a way that is very unfun in the name of efficiency or whatever and then say the game is boring.
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Jun 20, 2020 08:33
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Tiggum posted:
It's not From Softwares fault I stood under a dragon outside of it's range and shot it with arrows for what felt like an hour. I didn't have to, there was no reason to, and ultimately it was boring unfun and not worth it. But they gave me the option and I don't think I can fault them for that
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Jun 20, 2020 08:43
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The Arkham games could've just given you incremental health upgrades automatically when you earned skill points and avoided the whole problem.
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Jun 20, 2020 08:49
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The Moon Monster posted:The Souls/Bloodborne games also have this problem. New players always want to hit harder, equip fancier gear, and cast fancier spells, but straight up HP is consistently one of the most powerful stats and not investing in it is practically a challenge run. Don't need bit if you don't get hit. I get hit 
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Jun 20, 2020 08:54
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Doctor Spaceman posted:AC does some really dumb stuff with its expanded universe, like wrapping up the whole Juno plot (that starts at the end of AC3) in a comic approximately nobody read. Wasn't there also a mind control satellite or something that also happened in a comic? And didn't the explain why you had to murder Kristen Bell in a different comic?
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Jun 20, 2020 10:10
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Yeah, she was too expensive to keep casting. :P
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Jun 20, 2020 10:17
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The Kristen Bell thing was explained in DLC for Revelations at least. Turns out she was a baddie!
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Jun 20, 2020 10:19
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You can figure it out in Brotherhood if you use eagle vision around the base, it shows her running errands for somebody Of course, before Ubisoft made AC the action-adventure Call of Duty, Desilets' original plan was for a trilogy, so she had a contract for three games.
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Jun 20, 2020 10:25
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Len posted:It's not From Softwares fault I stood under a dragon outside of it's range and shot it with arrows for what felt like an hour. I didn't have to, there was no reason to, and ultimately it was boring unfun and not worth it. But they gave me the option and I don't think I can fault them for that A really big symptom of this sort of thing is JRPGs being 'grindy', which has always just been exactly this behavior manifesting all over the world. In truth, very few JRPGs I've ever played have actually required grinding (and every single case is a Shin Megami Tensei game having a really unforgiving final boss). But it's a very visible solution to every time you have trouble with a boss, it works, and most gamers are evidently very willing to take a very long and unfun road around an obstacle rather than face actual difficulty. It's a very weird problem to approach, but a very present one, where people are evidently so risk-averse they refuse to have fun. I remember a similar issue also came up in the Uncharted games; despite it being a game that rewards and is much more fun with high mobility, people's overall response was to play it slow and spend most of a fight stationary behind cover. You can't really fault a developer when their players willingly choose to have less fun, but at the same time, it's their job to fix it.
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Jun 20, 2020 10:29
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The Last of Us 2 It really bugs me that the game doesn't let me roleplay as a more cautious survivor. I'd appreciate being able to close and lock doors and holster my weapons instead of having to wait for that to happen automatically.
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Jun 20, 2020 10:29
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Cleretic posted:A really big symptom of this sort of thing is JRPGs being 'grindy', which has always just been exactly this behavior manifesting all over the world. In truth, very few JRPGs I've ever played have actually required grinding (and every single case is a Shin Megami Tensei game having a really unforgiving final boss). But it's a very visible solution to every time you have trouble with a boss, it works, and most gamers are evidently very willing to take a very long and unfun road around an obstacle rather than face actual difficulty.  How is that the player's fault?
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Jun 20, 2020 10:36
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I mean... no, it's not the only option. In pretty much all games like that I've played (I haven't played every JRPG, but I've played plenty, including a lot of 'the grindy ones') they pretty much all give you the tools you need to succeed provided you're keeping pace--which generally means 'fighting everything you'd reasonably come across, minimal evasion of fights'. Obviously if you're running from fights you have to make up for that at some point. The problem is that 'give you the tools' part. You really need to be willing to use everything you've got, which at times can be hard. It requires spells you might dismiss as useless, clever uses of mechanics. In games with larger parties, or especially your 'monster-collecting' stuff like Shin Megami Tensei or Pokemon, it might require regrouping, reorganizing, maybe even getting something new. Yes, grinding for more levels is always an option (unless you're playing FFVIII). Yeah, it's probably an easy one. But it's boring, nobody enjoys it, and you don't need to do it.
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Jun 20, 2020 11:05
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Cleretic posted:I mean... no, it's not the only option. In pretty much all games like that I've played (I haven't played every JRPG, but I've played plenty, including a lot of 'the grindy ones') they pretty much all give you the tools you need to succeed provided you're keeping pace--which generally means 'fighting everything you'd reasonably come across, minimal evasion of fights'. Obviously if you're running from fights you have to make up for that at some point. Mmmmnoo, I'm pretty sure your only option if you lose to a boss is to go grind another ten more levels and then go and beat it the next time. At least, that's basically how I beat Bloodborne. If I ever lost to a boss, I'd go and grind for five hours and then try again. Rinse and repeat until I won.
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Jun 20, 2020 13:49
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One of the hardest things about game design is that if you offer players any perceived advantage, no matter how stupid or pointless it is, people will do that exact thing over and over and then complain that the game is forcing them to do it.
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Jun 20, 2020 14:05
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Cleretic posted:I mean... no, it's not the only option. In pretty much all games like that I've played (I haven't played every JRPG, but I've played plenty, including a lot of 'the grindy ones') they pretty much all give you the tools you need to succeed provided you're keeping pace--which generally means 'fighting everything you'd reasonably come across, minimal evasion of fights'. Obviously if you're running from fights you have to make up for that at some point. That's exactly what I said. People perceive the boss as being too hard for their skill/interaction level and grinding is the option that gets them past that problem, you can't blame them for playing the game "wrong" or however you want to phrase it. orcane has a new favorite as of 14:15 on Jun 20, 2020 |
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Jun 20, 2020 14:10
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orcane posted:So, "get good or go grind". No, they were being more specific about maybe trying other abilities or restructuring your party set ups before you decide that you have no other options beyond grinding for another 11 hours.
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Jun 20, 2020 14:14
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Getting a bit tired of chapters of the last of us 2 ending with a billion infected or humans pouring out of the woodwork like cockroaches out of nowhere and chasing me out of the area in a dramatic escape sequence. It's happened like four times now and it's silly every time. Where were all these people 30 seconds ago???
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Jun 20, 2020 14:16
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That's the same thing though? If you decide you have no other options maybe you tried different things, maybe you didn't, maybe you're picking suboptimal options but the end result is that you can either play "better" (it doesn't matter what that is, specifically) or use the other tool that is "get more character levels" which also comes with more character power, items etc. in other areas. E: The point is, if you present "get your own power level higher" as a solution, and make it grindy, that's not a player problem first and foremost. If you want, you can make "grind for 11 hours" completely pointless by eg. scaling enemies up or moving power level buffs somewhere else in the game that's not grindy. If you also encourage experimentation with different builds/skills etc. through mechanics, make retrying bosses painless (or even offer to do it with something like what MMOs occasionally use nowadays where you get a buff that makes the same boss easier with your current setup), you can blame players for trying to sidestep difficulty humps by doing unfun stuff. Not if you add the unfun stuff as the main (or at least the obvious) way out in the first place, though. orcane has a new favorite as of 14:29 on Jun 20, 2020 |
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Jun 20, 2020 14:18
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A good example of players grinding when they don’t need to can be seen any time someone asks about Persona and someone responds “oh yeah, buffs and debuffs actually matter in this game” as though worthless buffs is actually a problem that persisted past the NES era and not just a huge inexplicable blind spot for some people.
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Jun 20, 2020 15:06
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This is why I like the implant swapping system in The Surge a whole lot. Leveling up your Core Power by grinding enemies for scrap does nothing by itself, all of your stat increases come from your equipped implants and weapon upgrade level. It's extremely tightly controlled and basically completely defeats the need to grind, because doing so doesn't actually get you anything unless you need scrap to craft new equipment or upgrade a weapon.
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Jun 20, 2020 15:14
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food court bailiff posted:A good example of players grinding when they don’t need to can be seen any time someone asks about Persona and someone responds “oh yeah, buffs and debuffs actually matter in this game” as though worthless buffs is actually a problem that persisted past the NES era and not just a huge inexplicable blind spot for some people. That's also because a lot of bosses are immune to a lot of common debuffs in other games and regular enemies die fast enough that you don't need to debuff them; so it's surprising when they actually work. Scanning enemies in FF7 is made as painless as possible; yet it still surprises people that Hard mode Hell House, one of the toughest hard mode fights in the game, is vulnerable to Stop which gives you a lot of breathing room and repositioning when it's ramming itself at you.
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Jun 20, 2020 15:39
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food court bailiff posted:A good example of players grinding when they don’t need to can be seen any time someone asks about Persona and someone responds “oh yeah, buffs and debuffs actually matter in this game” as though worthless buffs is actually a problem that persisted past the NES era and not just a huge inexplicable blind spot for some people. Persona 3 was what broke me free of that initially, but it was it was going back to Final Fantasy V that made me realize 'oh, Persona isn't unique, JRPGs have always been designed like this and nobody told me'. The way I always read 'get good' is as a way of saying 'execute your plan better'. Attack faster, dodge better, all that. Likely because it really started becoming a call around Dark Souls, where that basically was what 'get good' meant. But if you interpret 'get good' to include 'play smarter', well... yeah. You can always get good. orcane posted:E: The point is, if you present "get your own power level higher" as a solution, and make it grindy, that's not a player problem first and foremost. If you want, you can make "grind for 11 hours" completely pointless by eg. scaling enemies up or moving power level buffs somewhere else in the game that's not grindy. If you also encourage experimentation with different builds/skills etc. through mechanics, make retrying bosses painless (or even offer to do it with something like what MMOs occasionally use nowadays where you get a buff that makes the same boss easier with your current setup), you can blame players for trying to sidestep difficulty humps by doing unfun stuff. Not if you add the unfun stuff as the main (or at least the obvious) way out in the first place, though. The problem is, people are so used to 'having to grind' that they actually get mad when you take it away. Pretty much all the 'grindy' franchises tried, once, and everyone hated it. -Final Fantasy VIII made enemies scale with your level, so grinding was if anything detrimental. Of course, like everything in FFVIII it was very poorly explained and weirdly implemented. Hilariously, it did lead to people thinking they 'outsmarted the game' by keeping their level low, because they didn't realize that was... you know, actually what the game was trying to get you to do. -The fifth generation of Pokemon (Black and White) introduced scaling experience, so grinding just wouldn't produce results unless it was you jumping a weaker Pokemon up to keep pace with the rest of your team. -And Dark Souls 2 introduced an extinction mechanic, so if you kept trying to grind specific enemies then they would just stop spawning. Every single one of those was poorly received and abandoned in the very next installment. Because apparently, parting nerds from willingly making the game less fun is like trying to get a small child to take medicine, and they won't actually accept it unless you hide it in some candy or something.
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Jun 20, 2020 16:21
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