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Yuzenn posted:Police certainly don't act like this everywhere but they certainly do and always have done so here. We can't compare our Police force to any other Country in that regard, our Police were formed for a very specific and insidious reason, it's just that it took an 8 minute and 46 second video for people to see what black people always knew. Sure, I totally agree. But I do think it's important insofar as the police are a reflection of the society they operate in (how couldn't they be if most of their purpose is to enforce that social order), and (and this is my broader point), I think it's at least a little inevitable that any replacement to the police will have a tendency to reflect that society.
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Jun 19, 2020 01:25
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To say that American police are so unique that they can't be compared to other countries is pretty ridiculous. America is far from the only country with inequality or contemporary & historical racism in institutions. No two countries are identical of course, but it seems like a weird form of American exceptionalism to think that it's impossible to make any comparison.
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Jun 19, 2020 01:32
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But we are pretty unique in that regard? The slave trade helped build this country and many of our institutions sprang from it and are designed to keep it going. Other countries had and benefited from the slave trade sure, but most of them weren't born from it. And for those that were, I don't think it is unfair to say they didn't turn that into becoming the superpower the country is today? It's hard to really notice how much inequality is built into the country if you aren't looking for it, or a victim of it. But it is here in ways that are fairly unique to the USA. You can obviously make comparisons to other countries, if nothing else the USA sets a standard that many imitate. Which is not a good thing mind you. But any lessons or examples from other countries with regards to race and policing need to be taken with a huge grain of salt.
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Jun 19, 2020 02:52
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We aren’t unique in that regard either. There are Latin American countries whose development was pretty profoundly shaped by slavery. Brazil received more slaves than any other country, and they abolished slavery later. Brazilian police are, to put it very mildly, somewhat violent as well. I just think the idea that we are so special and unique that no lessons for other countries could potentially be applied here is pretty silly. It’s using the same logic conservatives do when they say that universal healthcare could never work here.
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Jun 19, 2020 03:34
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Still Dismal posted:We aren’t unique in that regard either. There are Latin American countries whose development was pretty profoundly shaped by slavery. Brazil received more slaves than any other country, and they abolished slavery later. Brazilian police are, to put it very mildly, somewhat violent as well. No one said there is nothing to be learned from other Countries, but what are we to learn specifically, i'd love any discussion with examples of what we can take from their models and implement here.
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Jun 19, 2020 04:37
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enki42 posted:The argument was that the term "police" definitionally means a group that is enforcing a racist class system in support of capital, and doesn't need to be limited to American policing. There's plenty of examples throughout history where the goal of the police wasn't explicitly racist, or explicitly in support of capital. Yes, police forces represent the class character of the people in charge of the government. No, no one is arguing that the Zapatistas need to disband the agencia. I'm curious how you think 'we can keep the police and still call them that we just need to make the country socialist' is a better movement platform than 'abolish the police'. Like, I understand your quibble and, fair play, I'm absolutely speaking from an American perspective. Are the police in your country good and worth keeping intact? I'm sorry I've been rude I'm extremely heated about this topic and it harms my ability to communicate and understand. I am genuinely curious from whence your motivation to push this point though. I'd also really push back on the idea that police departments accidentally have racist outcomes but you'd need to say where you talking about. Crumbskull fucked around with this message at 05:37 on Jun 19, 2020 |
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Jun 19, 2020 05:21
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Still Dismal posted:We aren’t unique in that regard either. There are Latin American countries whose development was pretty profoundly shaped by slavery. Brazil received more slaves than any other country, and they abolished slavery later. Brazilian police are, to put it very mildly, somewhat violent as well. While modern law enforcement is similar in broader aspects in many countries, their origins definitely have started differently. As mentioned in this thread before, the Metropolitan Police Service in Britain formed as a counter-balance to local sheriffs and councilmen and private patrols and various roving bands of street justice, as for example opposed to the Sheriff's departments of the American South, which had slavery adjacent origins in many places. Before the passing of the Metropolitan Police Act 1829, law enforcement among the general population in England was carried out by unpaid parish constables who were elected, and later appointed by the local justice of the peace. In certain circumstances, such as serious public disorder, they would use the Army. The system was pretty loving lovely, and in most parts of the country, a wack system of whatever someone felt like. There is other cool stuff there, which I feel like is necessary for American Policing moving forward before full abolishment is achieved, such as Firearms being rare, and only with authorization. "The authorisation was issued on the condition that revolvers would only be issued if, in the opinion of the senior officer, the officer could be trusted to use it safely and with discretion. From then, officers could be armed", in the 1840s.
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Jun 19, 2020 07:06
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American police have been exporting their culture to cops around the world, too.
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Jun 19, 2020 07:08
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Article explains how "Defund the police" as a slogan doesn't have popular support, but asking people in polls if they would support taking some money from police budgets and putting it into homelessness, mental health and domestic violence counselling results in much greater agreement.  https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/americans-like-the-ideas-behind-defunding-the-police-more-than-the-slogan-itself/
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Jun 20, 2020 02:28
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CocoaNuts posted:Article explains how "Defund the police" as a slogan doesn't have popular support, but asking people in polls if they would support taking some money from police budgets and putting it into homelessness, mental health and domestic violence counselling results in much greater agreement. I'd imagine that polling for "defund the police" before these riots doesn't exist, because these activists have started the conversation. That is what leadership looks like. I know, it is an alien concept to us Americans.
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Jun 20, 2020 02:49
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CocoaNuts posted:Article explains how "Defund the police" as a slogan doesn't have popular support, but asking people in polls if they would support taking some money from police budgets and putting it into homelessness, mental health and domestic violence counselling results in much greater agreement. "Black lives matter" was a majority disagrees statement until mid 2016. They'll figure it out eventually if everyone who actually has something to lose in this fight stays in it.
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Jun 20, 2020 09:21
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Semi-related: reports of gunfire in Seattle's autonomous zone last night. Medics respond but refuse to enter the scene because they are not granted clearance from superiors. They remain in their vehicles for a reported 30 minutes and one of the wounded bleeds out. The person who posted the video below on Twitter is getting eviscerated in the comments because he's allegedly been handing out firearms and his "colleagues" were reportedly involved in the shooting. https://twitter.com/RazSimone/status/1274541843779252229 https://heavy.com/news/2020/06/watch-seattle-police-chop-chaz-shooting-video/
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Jun 21, 2020 17:33
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I wonder how the CHOP government? is going to handle the aftermath of the shooting
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Jun 21, 2020 22:19
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If the cops can’t go, the fire department won’t go either into a situation with unknown shooters. Holy poo poo what whining, it’s the reality of it. The fire medics have zero interest in going somewhere where people are getting shot, and no one has any clue what is happening. They could have brought the person to the ambulance, though. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Jun 21, 2020 |
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Jun 21, 2020 22:28
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Is anyone aware of any particularly good contemporary websites advocating for abolishing the police? Maybe a one pager with some statistics and main headings? Extra good if it has a github or something so I can reuse the template
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Jun 21, 2020 22:50
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One of the cops in the George Floyd murder is casually out shopping. Gets confronted on citizen video... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PXt0suZUtQ https://www.tmz.com/2020/06/21/george-floyd-cop-confronted-at-grocery-store-j-alexander-kueng/
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Jun 22, 2020 00:05
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Many pages ago but I just want to personally thank Mat Cauthon for giving me those resources (along with a good effort post). I passed them on to my friend and he was delighted, then went crazy arguing (though sometimes just linking the resources to people who wanted them), even though I advised him arguing in facebook groups is futile. He is appreciative and extends his heartfelt thanks. So do I. I am reading the material myself and have added the links, so far, to my .txt lists of sources/evidence. Thanks and I really do appreciate it!
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Jun 22, 2020 04:18
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What is the "no coercive government force" solution to the plague of fireworks that the police have stopped doing anything about?
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Jun 22, 2020 16:20
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flashman posted:What is the "no coercive government force" solution to the plague of fireworks that the police have stopped doing anything about? Super duper weird. https://twitter.com/JordanUhl/status/1274978506250862593?s=20 https://twitter.com/AnneMarcelleN/status/1274540444253388800
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Jun 22, 2020 16:38
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Yeah I mean it's obvious that the police aren't doing anything about the fireworks, what should be done to stop them that does not neccesitate police action though?
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Jun 22, 2020 16:53
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Stop making fireworks.
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Jun 22, 2020 16:56
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I also can't think of a way to get my neighbors to change their behavior without approaching them with a gun and threatening to imprison them.
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Jun 22, 2020 17:00
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A gun is not neccessary to have the power of coercion. So you gonna just wander the streets asking the teens nicely to stop firing them off?
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Jun 22, 2020 17:03
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You could create something more enjoyable to do than setting fireworks off.
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Jun 22, 2020 17:06
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I mean, yeah, a first step would be getting the neighborhood together and explaining why its disruptive, asking them to stop, and agreeing to commit some time and energy to finding something less disruptive for them to do at night. Also, I'm not sure why are you asking for a strictly 'non-coercive' solution unless maybe you haven't read the thread and any of the resources in it and still think Abolition is synonomous with Total Anarchy.
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Jun 22, 2020 17:07
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flashman posted:A gun is not neccessary to have the power of coercion. So you gonna just wander the streets asking the teens nicely to stop firing them off? I posted two proofs that it's the cops who are setting off the fireworks. You can engage with that.
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Jun 22, 2020 17:08
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Cpt_Obvious posted:I posted two proofs that it's the cops who are setting off the fireworks. You can engage with that. I'm sorry two random twitter accounts do not equal proof to me, particularly considering you've got plenty of first hand accounts in uspol saying they recognize the teens setting them off, coupled with the low price of fireworks this year. The conspiracy theory that it's police psyops doesn't hold much water.
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Jun 22, 2020 17:10
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flashman posted:I'm sorry two random twitter accounts do not equal proof to me, particularly considering you've got plenty of first hand accounts in uspol saying they recognize the teens setting them off, coupled with the low price of fireworks this year. The conspiracy theory that it's police psyops doesn't hold much water. So actual videos of cops setting off fireworks are not proof that cops are setting off fireworks?
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Jun 22, 2020 17:10
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Have you watched the videos you posted...?
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Jun 22, 2020 17:12
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Creating their own monopoly on violence and setting up, for example, a protection racket or whatever violent method of extracting wealth. I don't think I ever answered this but my reflexive answer is: at some level the community does have a responsibility to defend itself, so like, if an occupying army shows up thats one thing, but in the case of a criminal organization that is like dozens of people, the community would just have to stand up to them. I think this again comes back around to: policing is not the only thing that needs to change, in a world where resources are distributed equitably so that people's needs are being met I believe the risk of that kind of criminal activity becomes greatly reduced anyway. I know you are sympathetic to abolition, but I fear your question is getting a little close to CS's 'what if bad men are determined to bad things' questions which are really difficult to answer hypotheticals and also don't grapple with the fact that organized crime already controls lots of neighborhoods and rackets under the current policing regime.
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Jun 22, 2020 17:16
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Crumbskull posted:I mean, yeah, a first step would be getting the neighborhood together and explaining why its disruptive, asking them to stop, and agreeing to commit some time and energy to finding something less disruptive for them to do at night. I asked it pointedly towards those such as owl fancier who think that the states monopoly on force should not exist. Of course if you have a state coercive force (unarmed of course) you can deal with the fireworks.. Edit: I should add that I found his answer illuminating and satisfactory, that is the banning of things at the point of sale/production that the community deems disruptive. flashman fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Jun 22, 2020 |
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Jun 22, 2020 17:18
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The same things that normally stop people setting off fireworks 24/7... The same as the answer to all of these stupid loving questions about how can you possibly ensure things that happen 99% of the time, continue to happen.
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Jun 22, 2020 17:20
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flashman posted:I asked it pointedly towards those such as owl fancier who think that the states monopoly on force should not exist. Of course if you have a state coercive force (unarmed of course) you can deal with the fireworks.. Yeah, this is similar to how I'd like to see drug 'crime' dealt with until we reach full legalization. You go after the enterprises profiting from the harmful activity, not the individuals utilizng the goods and services. Also: Fair play, I keep forgetting there ARE one or two 'literally total Anarchy' people itt.
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Jun 22, 2020 17:27
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I'm not even literally total anarchy, I fully expect the abolition of police to result in the reintroduction, at some point, of some kind of state force. What I object to is this incessant repetition of the same drat question over and over in different formulations which only ever boils down to "how can you have a functioning society without cops" from people who probably have zero loving interaction with the cops in their daily life because they don't need them and aren't a target for them. It's either thinly veiled racism/classism/whatever you want to call that dogshit idea that there are feral hordes lurking outside the gated community and only the precious cops will keep us safe from them, or it's a complete unwillingness to look at and think about the environment they actually live in, and instead just parrot off the dogshit racist idea without thinking about it.
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Jun 22, 2020 17:35
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OwlFancier posted:The same things that normally stop people setting off fireworks 24/7... Normally the police enforce noise ordinances this is not what you suggested or, I assume, desire.
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Jun 22, 2020 17:36
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flashman posted:Normally the police enforce noise ordinances this is not what you suggested or, I assume, desire. Mate you don't actually believe there are cops lurking every hundred feet just waiting to pounce on random kids who might set off fireworks.
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Jun 22, 2020 17:37
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flashman posted:Normally the police enforce noise ordinances this is not what you suggested or, I assume, desire. Have you ever called police? Do you know how many calls they get for things like noise? How about how many calls they ignore? Normally police do not enforce noise ordinances unless they have literally nothing else to do.
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Jun 22, 2020 17:39
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The way cops usually enforce said ordinances is to ask the person in question to stop; the same thing the caller should be doing.
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Jun 22, 2020 17:41
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OwlFancier posted:I'm not even literally total anarchy, I fully expect the abolition of police to result in the reintroduction, at some point, of some kind of state force. What I object to is this incessant repetition of the same drat question over and over in different formulations which only ever boils down to "how can you have a functioning society without cops" from people who probably have zero loving interaction with the cops in their daily life because they don't need them and aren't a target for them. Yeah, its am unfair characterization of your position AND I 100% agree that the posters who are repeatedly asking the same 'what about the evil that lurks in the heart of man' question over and over are making it impossible to have a decent discussion about this topic.
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Jun 22, 2020 17:42
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ElCondemn posted:Have you ever called police? Do you know how many calls they get for things like noise? How about how many calls they ignore?
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Jun 22, 2020 17:44
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