Fiction Writing Advice and Discussion: Read. Write. Crit. Repeat.

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > Creative Convention > Fiction Writing Advice and Discussion: Read. Write. Crit. Repeat.

«‹›148 »

Sham bam bamina!: Nov 6, 2012; ƨtupid cat

There's also some questionable advice that definitely needs to be addressed.

Doctor Zero posted:

However, you use "terribly dull" and "fantastically interesting" several more times further on. Adverbs are evil. A necessary evil, sure, but evil.

This is grade-school writing advice. There is no reason to avoid using the passive voice or adverbs per se, and this post doesn't seem to have a solid grasp on the passive voice anyway. "Is surrounded" is passive, but so is "she is at a so-called happy hour sipping a martini that tastes like a corroded battery, surrounded by people you label colleagues" � putting a passive participle in an appositive phrase doesn't make it any less passive. (That appositive phrase also needs a "would" in there; the reader doesn't label these people colleagues, because they don't exist.) But what do you get if you use the active voice? "People you would label colleagues surround her." It's bonkers! Using the passive voice to convey an action is the kind of dumb mistake that schoolkids make, which is why they get that reductive proscription against it, but it's just as maladroit to use the active voice for a state. Adverbs are the same way. That a kid writes "very big" instead of thinking a second longer and writing "enormous" is no indictment of adverbs themselves. The post itself is loaded with adverbs and adverbial phrases, some of them crucial to the meanings of their sentences ("play consistently with imagery"). Here, I think that "dull" would work better than "terribly dull" (which doesn't convey greater dullness as much as it does greater bluster about dullness), but "fantastically interesting" is reaching for something more than simply "interesting"; "riveting" or a similar word would be best.

Doctor Zero posted:

Also the "flared out" in sad fireworks" I dig. However, 'flared' and 'sad' don't go well together. 'Flared" is bright and energetic. 'Sad' implies weak and pathetic. You probably were trying the ironic flip, but it didn't catch here. Just stick to the 'sad' metaphor.

I don't understand this at all. A sad pink firework is good, but to flare out sadly isn't? "Flared" and "flared out" are distinct actions, too; in the excerpt, that part of the character's brain burned bright for a moment before exhausting itself. "Flared out like a sad pink firework" is a perfectly decent bit of imagery.

Sham bam bamina! fucked around with this message at 05:08 on Jun 21, 2020

# ? Jun 21, 2020 01:28

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 21, 2024 10:43

take the moon: Feb 13, 2011; by sebmojo

fight fight fight

im gonna write today even though im not Long Walking 0_0

Sham bam bamina! posted:

I don't understand this at all. A sad pink firework is good, but to flare out sadly isn't? "Flared" and "flared out" are distinct actions, too; in the excerpt, that part of the character's brain burned bright for a moment before exhausting itself. "Flared out like a sad pink firework" is a perfectly decent bit of imagery.

yea that criticism made no sense. how can u even use imagery w/o contradictions

well im sure u can somehow but whatevs

# ? Jun 21, 2020 01:46

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

I wouldn't say adverbs are evil either, and if you read classic literature they are omnipresent, but I think they do always warrant an additional look to see if they deserve their place. Take each one out of its sentence and see if it changes the meaning; if not you can probably leave it out unless it serves some other purpose.

# ? Jun 21, 2020 01:51

take the moon: Feb 13, 2011; by sebmojo

my criticism is like, idk grade school w/e cuz every criticism seems grade school or ivory tower but its a gamble for your chars to be bored. im probably bored if the chars are. also dull or interesting are bad adjectives in the same way beautiful is. make me feel it dont tell me how to feel

i like taking every grade school crit tbh. like i flat out just dont use adverbs at all, im interested in what comes out if u just grind all the basic bitch rules in. all but purple prose. purple prose to the ends of the earth & hell also

no rules u can play with no blues u can shake them etc

i like that everyones weighing in :)

# ? Jun 21, 2020 02:00

Wallet: Jun 19, 2006

"Don't use the passive voice for no reason" is decent advice�not using it at all is nonsensical. I think you can apply the same rule to adverbs.

ultrachrist posted:

Not completely following your last paragraph. To me, copyediting is finding typos or fixing tense. What I need to improve on is exactly what you described: clumsy/repetitive/unnecessary.

Basically just that I don't think you need to be worried about bad sentences because the problems aren't really at the sentence level, they're at the word level.

To give a concrete example of the quantity of words in here that aren't really doing any work for you (some comments in italics):

quote:

The first time it happens she is at a ~~so-called~~ happy hour sipping a martini that tastes ("that tastes" is arguably unnecessary) like a corroded battery. She is surrounded by ~~the type of people you label~~ colleagues~~, not friends~~[:] Dave and Rahul are leaned forward listening to the new girl, Val, tell a story about her recent trip to Myanmar~~, replete with last-minute plan changes, amusing cultural mishaps, and lengthy pauses meant to build suspense~~(The next thing you tell me is that this is dull. I can imagine a dull travel story.). The story is dull. Everyone is smiling. She is not smiling but her mask is. Val is presenting as beautiful today~~, which may play a part in Dave and Rahul�s apparent interest in the terribly dull story~~.(It seems like an important detail that people other than the PoV have control over how they present, but the detail feels out of place sequenced as it is.) ~~Or wait,~~ [M]aybe the story isn�t dull at all~~, but instead fantastically interesting~~, and it only appears dull because [some] part of her brain ~~that determines which stories are dull and which are fantastically interesting~~ has only just now flared out like a sad pink firework.

Or in a readable form (ignoring the she/Val issue):

quote:

The first time it happens she is at a happy hour sipping a martini that tastes like a corroded battery. She is surrounded by colleagues[:] Dave and Rahul are leaned forward listening to the new girl, Val, tell a story about her recent trip to Myanmar. The story is dull. [Val is presenting as beautiful today�][e]veryone is smiling. She is not smiling but her mask is. [M]aybe the story isn�t dull at all, and it only appears dull because [some] part of her brain has only just now flared out like a sad pink firework.

# ? Jun 21, 2020 02:30

take the moon: Feb 13, 2011; by sebmojo

i waited for another post so i wouldnt double post but basically i think the best fa next to close the fuckin thread & log off is to find your voice. theres no point in it otherwise. just... use the crits for that. they are a weapon they are not the war

all the authors whove survived the years did so cuz they found their voice & nothing else is worth it

thanx 4 reading this post

# ? Jun 21, 2020 02:44

Safety Biscuits: Oct 21, 2010

ultrachrist posted:

I read every day and I write almost every day. I do the thing where missing 1 day is OK but never 2 in a row.

Sure, here's the first scene of the story I was referencing:

Three things I don't think anybody's mentioned:

1. Some word choices and descriptions are inaccurate or peculiar, e.g. the "weathered" clock or the mask with "hare-like" ears that attach to the side, not the top.

2. It's not a very interesting opening scene, in my opinion - I agree with Doctor Zero. An unnamed woman misremembers something at a boring cocktail party. Why don't you bulk it out, add more details, make it more consequential and emotional, tell us something about the protagonist, make her think about her failing memory, explain why she's so tired? This is a more-or-less contemporary culture, but a professional at ease wears bunny ears and wholesome means wearing a bonnet; you should be able to milk this for a couple of jokes or interesting descriptions.

3. There are a couple of times when the setting doesn't quite make sense. The first paragraph says that Val is presenting as beautiful today - does she sometimes present as ugly or frumpy? If masks don't necessarily show you what the wearer is doing, how does the protagonist know Dave and Rahul are smiling? Who's wearing a mask, anyway?

Wallet posted:

To give a concrete example of the quantity of words in here that aren't really doing any work for you (some comments in italics):

Mostly agreed but don't cut the details about Val's story! Details are good! Just make them more interesting.

# ? Jun 21, 2020 03:23

Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007

Wallet posted:

"Don't use the passive voice for no reason" is decent advice�not using it at all is nonsensical. I think you can apply the same rule to adverbs.

Basically just that I don't think you need to be worried about bad sentences because the problems aren't really at the sentence level, they're at the word level.

To give a concrete example of the quantity of words in here that aren't really doing any work for you (some comments in italics):

Or in a readable form (ignoring the she/Val issue):

again props to the OP for posting their writing. Its a brave thing to do, esp here.

Heres a question. Would "Dave and Rahul are leaning forward listening to the new girl" work? Why not? You seem to be pretty competent with this stuff and for me mostly its about guessing and just what sounds right.

# ? Jun 21, 2020 03:44

Doctor Zero: Sep 21, 2002; Would you like a jelly baby?
It's been in my pocket through 4 regenerations,
but it's still good.

Sham bam bamina! posted:

This is grade-school writing advice.

I agree that avoiding passive voice and avoiding adverbs completely is grade school level advice. That's why I never said that. I also wasn't attempting to give advice on the grammatical construction of the writing, because I thought it was fine.

The point I was making was about reducing words and phrases that might be generating the advice about clunky writing - I wasn't talking about active/passive voice. Grammatically there's nothing wrong with saying "She is surrounded, blah blah blah". But my opinion is that if you take that and attach it to the first line, it works better. Again, what I wrote was an example to illustrate how it might work, and not intended to be a shining bastion of grammatical purity.

There's a bit of subtlety here. To me, "She is reclining on the couch." sounds like someone reporting something - perhaps talking about their memory of an event. "She reclines on the couch." sounds more "active" in that I feel like I am observing the event myself. That's what I was getting at with passive with the author's voice, not the grammatical voice.

And on adverbs, yes I use them a lot. Probably more than I should. Doesn't mean I can't give advice to be careful with them. Again, I never said don't use them. My point was to use them when necessary and effective. If you actually (ZOMG ADVERB) read what I wrote, I said the first use of them were fine, it was when they got repeated again and again, that they sound clunky (and you could use that repetition as a good thing if you always refer to Val's story as "terribly dull" each and every time it comes up, but that would only work if it comes up a lot).

For the sake of argument, this is the kind of thing I'm talking about (not taken from Ultrachrist's writing).

"She hurriedly rushed into the room" - There's no point to 'hurriedly' here. We know she's rushing.

"She clumsily rushed into the room." - Better. Now I know there's something different about the way she rushed. Makes me wonder why she's clumsy.

"She rushed into the room, tripping over toys and stacks of magazines" - Best IMO because it conveys what's going on, and shows and not tells (GRADE SCHOOL CRITICISM ALERT). Is the second example fine if it fits the circumstance? Sure it is.

quote:

I don't understand this at all. A sad pink firework is good, but to flare out sadly isn't? "Flared" and "flared out" are distinct actions, too; in the excerpt, that part of the character's brain burned bright for a moment before exhausting itself. "Flared out like a sad pink firework" is a perfectly decent bit of imagery.

And that's fine if it works for you. Everything I wrote is my opinion. For me, it took me out of the writing because I stopped to imagine how something would flare sadly. I still can't. Doesn't mean everyone can't. Something like "fizzled out like a sad pink firework" might be one way to do it, but I don't like that either because that implies it's going out rather than lighting up. Regardless, if it works for Ultrachrist and most readers, that's fine.

Better example of this is the aforementioned "Dave and Rahul�s faces are traffic lights turning green." I still have no idea how to take that, even if I kind of like it. Maybe everyone else gets it, but I didn't.

Anyway, maybe instead of of critiquing my critique, you could provide Ultrachrist some of your insights directly?

Ultrachrist, what I didn't say because I feel I already say it a lot in this thread, is that you are free to take or reject any of the feedback you get. It's your writing, and every reader is going to give you different advice. Maybe I am missing the point on some things. What you have to be careful about is if a lot of different people give you the same feedback. If many people say that not having a name for the protagonist is confusing, ignore that at your peril. I'm not saying you have to give her a name, but just know that you might lose people at this point. Maybe later in the work it all becomes clear and I can go back and read the opening again with perfect information and understand. Personally, I love that kind of thing. But as an opening if you confuse the reader, you run the risk of them quitting and moving on to the next story, which would be a shame because, again, I think it's very good.

# ? Jun 21, 2020 13:06

Doctor Zero: Sep 21, 2002; Would you like a jelly baby?
It's been in my pocket through 4 regenerations,
but it's still good.

Shageletic posted:

again props to the OP for posting their writing. Its a brave thing to do, esp here.

Heres a question. Would "Dave and Rahul are leaning forward listening to the new girl" work? Why not? You seem to be pretty competent with this stuff and for me mostly its about guessing and just what sounds right.

I know you aimed that at Wallet, but either way is fine. As I said above, "are leaned forward" sounds to me like reporting. It sounds like the moment is frozen in time and someone is recalling it. "are leaning forward" sounds like I'm next to the narrator seeing with my own eyes in real time. Both read fine, but convey a slightly different feeling.

# ? Jun 21, 2020 13:18

Wallet: Jun 19, 2006

Shageletic posted:

again props to the OP for posting their writing. Its a brave thing to do, esp here.

Heres a question. Would "Dave and Rahul are leaning forward listening to the new girl" work? Why not? You seem to be pretty competent with this stuff and for me mostly its about guessing and just what sounds right.

Everyone is working by feel/sound. It's fine either way, to me.

# ? Jun 21, 2020 13:23

Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007

Thanks!

# ? Jun 21, 2020 13:55

Sham bam bamina!: Nov 6, 2012; ƨtupid cat

Doctor Zero posted:

I agree that avoiding passive voice and avoiding adverbs completely is grade school level advice. That's why I never said that. I also wasn't attempting to give advice on the grammatical construction of the writing, because I thought it was fine.

Fair enough. I apologize if I misunderstood your post.

Doctor Zero posted:

There's a bit of subtlety here. To me, "She is reclining on the couch." sounds like someone reporting something - perhaps talking about their memory of an event. "She reclines on the couch." sounds more "active" in that I feel like I am observing the event myself. That's what I was getting at with passive with the author's voice, not the grammatical voice.

Both of those are active. "Reclines" is in the simple present tense, while "is reclining" is in the present progressive. The passive voice is when the subject is acted upon in some way (just now, for example), not any time the word "is" gets used with another verb (there it is again). I'm not trying to be a dick here; I just think it's important for anyone who writes to know the difference between voice and tense.

Sham bam bamina! fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Jun 21, 2020

# ? Jun 21, 2020 16:07

Doctor Zero: Sep 21, 2002; Would you like a jelly baby?
It's been in my pocket through 4 regenerations,
but it's still good.

Sham bam bamina! posted:

Fair enough. I apologize if I misunderstood your post.

Both of those are active. "Reclines" is in the simple present tense, while "is reclining" is in the present progressive. The passive voice is when the subject is acted upon in some way (just now, for example), not any time the word "is" gets used with another verb (there it is again). I'm not trying to be a dick here; I just think it's important for anyone who writes to know the difference between voice and tense.

No worries. And yes, I agree on your point about tense. I could find better words than passive or active to talk about voice so they don't get confused. Is there a better term to use here?

# ? Jun 21, 2020 16:57

Djeser: Mar 22, 2013; it's crow time again

I think it's fine to talk about it in terms of progressive tense, because that's the big difference in meaning. Progressive tense describes ongoing actions or states, while simple tenses describe the action itself. That's why "she is sitting" sounds different than "she sits": there's more specific time-information implied in "is sitting", it's like a snapshot of the state of the room. At this present moment, she is sitting. 'Sits' focuses more on the action itself and less on the state. It's up to the writer whether they want to emphasize action or state.

e: The difference in meaning is clearer if you use a less habitual verb than 'sit'. If I say "she is leaning back" then it's important that she is currently still in the process of leaning back. Something else is probably happening simultaneously. Maybe she slips and falls off her chair. Maybe the viewpoint character is caught up in some lurid moment they're trying to describe in careful detail. If I say "she leans back" there's less tension; whatever follows is implied to happen after she leans back, not during.

Djeser fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Jun 21, 2020

# ? Jun 21, 2020 17:26

Djeser: Mar 22, 2013; it's crow time again

In fact, I'll just make a post about tenses in English since it's not something that usually gets covered in school, because English class sucks.

English has three main kinds of tenses: simple, progressive, and perfect.*

Simple tenses are for actions that complete 'now'. Even when you're talking about past or future events, they're in the 'present' of the narrative: "I climb the stairs." "He climbed the ladder." "You will climb that mountain."

Because they talk about complete actions, simple tenses are good for conveying sequences of events. Things happen in the order you tell them: "I sit down. I take a drink."

Progressive tenses are for actions that are ongoing. If you're using a present participle, which in English is usually the -ing form of the verb, you're in a progressive tense. They don't 'finish' like simple tenses do: "I am climbing the stairs. He was climbing the ladder. You will be climbing that mountain."

Because they talk about actions that continue, progressive tenses are good for conveying things happening at the same time. Simple-tense actions take place during progressive-tense actions: "I am running. I catch the ball. I am gasping for breath."

Perfect tenses are for actions that are already complete. If you're using a past participle, which in English is often the -ed form of the verb (but is frequently irregular), you're in a perfect tense. If simple tenses are in the 'present' of the narrative, these are in the 'past': "I have climbed the stairs. He had climbed the ladder. You will have climbed that mountain."

Because they talk about previously completed actions, perfect tenses are good for emphasizing that an action is already finished: "I have eaten today." "The last enemy fell; he had defeated them."

*In linguistic terms these are aspects and not tenses, but only linguistics majors are actually going to care.

# ? Jun 21, 2020 20:21

take the moon: Feb 13, 2011; by sebmojo

ill linguistics major u

# ? Jun 21, 2020 23:31

ultrachrist: Sep 27, 2008

Thanks everyone. I found the feedback valuable. Same with the english lesson. I have no formal training so reading the explanations of things I only know by feel was enlightening. I think the best thing is to just rewrite the story but I'm going to respond with some general points and then some more specific ones since people took the time to respond. Also, if anyone (whether you responded or not) wants some critique of their own stuff, I'll definitely pay it forward and help.

I last edited this story 6+ months ago so I'm sufficiently distant from it. Enough that I noticed some stuff when posting that tidbit (unnecessary words like 'utter' before 'lack of recognition').

1. "Val is presenting as beautiful today." In other words, she took great care with her appearance -- makeup, dress, etc. She didn't put her hair in a bun and come into work in yoga pants. It was not a reference to a mask like the protagonist is wearing, but it is a sort of mask, a point the story makes later on. Multiple people were confused by this which is useful because I was taking it for granted. I've heard women describe other professional women like this, but only among my friends or co-workers so I'm probably in a bubble. Point taken.

2. "She" vs. a name. I feel strongly about no name but I need to think harder on this. There's only one other scene (much later) in the story with pronoun ambiguity like this but I figure the reader is used to it by that point. It's much harder to swallow in the first paragraph. I'm aware of this and it used to be worse. I'll think this one over.

3. FWIW, the next sentence after the scene I posted starts with "The next time it happens [...]" It becomes immediately clear that memory and the cowboy show in particular are important parts of the story.

4. I've used "scanning my/his/her memory" in multiple stories. I need a better way to convey that sense of going back through your memory.

5. Tense and adverbs: I understand how these can be pitfalls. I used them intentionally, which isn't to say I used them well. I appreciate Djeser's explanation. Progressive tense is the most common case I will use "is [verbing]". It's to describe things that are already happening, or things that are happening at the same time. That said, I still have trouble with active and urgent vs. setting the scene. For instance, I'm editing a different story now and I think the beginning is the weakest part. The second paragraph was originally shorter and more "active" but it felt lifeless. I tried to add more detail and ease the reader in, which involved a more passive opening:

Old:
My first encounter with both father and daughter came on the former�s final day on the job. After receiving an urgent call regarding trouble in the cemetery, my partner and I tore down �3 and skidded into the parking lot, upsetting quiet mourners with the wail of the ambulance siren. An old man lay crumpled beside a grave half-dredged. His leg twitched. He�d lost a boot when he crawled from the seat of the excavator and his big toe peeped from a hole in his sock like a curious grub.

New:
My first encounter with both father and daughter came on the former�s final day on the job. I was reclining in the driver�s seat when the ambulance�s radio crackled with a half-intelligible description of trouble in a nearby cemetery. I threw the truck into gear and my partner and I bounced along the local backroads and skidded into the parking lot. Black-clad mourners looked up in weary disbelief at yet another siren. We tumbled out of the doors and found an old man crumpled beside a half-dredged grave. His leg twitched. He�d lost a boost when he crawled from the seat of the excavator and his big toe peeped from a hole in his sock like a curious grub.

I'd probably lose that half-intelligible, but I'm not sure how much that paragraph actually improved.

Quoted responses:

Sham bam bamina! posted:

(That appositive phrase also needs a "would" in there; the reader doesn't label these people colleagues, because they don't exist.)

Does grammar acknowledge that the characters in the story don't truly exist?? You're right. It definitely reads better with "would".

wallet posted:

To give a concrete example of the quantity of words in here that aren't really doing any work for you (some comments in italics):

Or in a readable form (ignoring the she/Val issue):

I see where you're going with this, but to me the end result feels sterilized. "so-called" sets up the tone of the story and also tells you the character isn't happy. "Or wait" further sets the tone and demonstrates a major theme in the story: the protagonist arguing with herself. Again, this isn't to say I'm using the right words or using them well, just what I am trying to convey. The story is dull, but everyone else seems interested. Protag speculates that this is because a) Dave and Rahul are thirsting after Val or b) her brain broke. I feel like that gets stripped out with the cut details.

Safety Biscuits posted:

1. Some word choices and descriptions are inaccurate or peculiar, e.g. the "weathered" clock or the mask with "hare-like" ears that attach to the side, not the top.

I like comments like this. I feel like sometimes I write details and don't think them over well enough.

I had to look up "weathered" in the dictionary to understand what (I think) you mean. I was using it to mean old and worn but distinguished. I think what you're getting at is that something can only be weathered if it's exposed to the outside. So for the sentence to work either someone would have to have left the clock outside or otherwise it's made of weathered wood.

As far as the ears go, I was thinking:

But I also don't know what the hell the difference between a hare and a rabbit is. Can hares have floppy ears??

In any case, my wife pointed out that "elf with bunny ears" does not suggest "professional at ease." The whole thing needs work.

"Doctor Zero" posted:

Better example of this is the aforementioned "Dave and Rahul�s faces are traffic lights turning green." I still have no idea how to take that, even if I kind of like it. Maybe everyone else gets it, but I didn't.

I wasn't entirely sure of this as I wrote it. I'm still not. The idea I was trying to convey is the focus of Dave and Rahul's faces goes from their eyes (the red light, watching Val) to their surprised, opened mouths at the weirdo protag interrupting with a nonsensical comment (green light). It's also supposed to be a little cartoonish, which is something that occurs in the story overall as it focuses on the cowboy show.

Doctor Zero posted:

Ultrachrist, what I didn't say because I feel I already say it a lot in this thread, is that you are free to take or reject any of the feedback you get. It's your writing, and every reader is going to give you different advice. Maybe I am missing the point on some things. What you have to be careful about is if a lot of different people give you the same feedback. If many people say that not having a name for the protagonist is confusing, ignore that at your peril. I'm not saying you have to give her a name, but just know that you might lose people at this point. Maybe later in the work it all becomes clear and I can go back and read the opening again with perfect information and understand. Personally, I love that kind of thing. But as an opening if you confuse the reader, you run the risk of them quitting and moving on to the next story, which would be a shame because, again, I think it's very good.

This is good advice and I agree. I am trying to be sensitive to the points that came up multiple times.

With regards "all becomes clear later", it's something I struggle with and am always working on. I love love love starting a new story confused and unsure of what's going on, especially when it's weird. Reading, I mean. I know others hate that and there's a fine line between 'unclear but compelling' and just 'confusing'. One point that came up multiple times in the professional feedback I received was that the foreshadowing and gradual unfolding worked. . . but the fact that it's never confirmed one way or another if the protagonist's masks are "real" left at least one of the readers unsure if that really worked or not.

# ? Jun 22, 2020 04:25

Safety Biscuits: Oct 21, 2010

Djeser posted:

In fact, I'll just make a post about tenses in English since it's not something that usually gets covered in school, because English class sucks.

If anyone wants to learn more about time in English (which is a bit broader than tenses) consider Teaching Tenses by Rosemary Aitken, which isn't a grammar but is useful. If you do want a grammar, try Swan's Practical English Usage or the little Collins Gem one.

Doctor Zero posted:

No worries. And yes, I agree on your point about tense. I could find better words than passive or active to talk about voice so they don't get confused. Is there a better term to use here?

How about urgent/involving vs dull/relaxed?

ultrachrist posted:

I like comments like this. I feel like sometimes I write details and don't think them over well enough.

I had to look up "weathered" in the dictionary to understand what (I think) you mean. I was using it to mean old and worn but distinguished. I think what you're getting at is that something can only be weathered if it's exposed to the outside. So for the sentence to work either someone would have to have left the clock outside or otherwise it's made of weathered wood.

Right. "Weathering" is damage from weather, and a clock won't have that. There are a few more details like this in the excerpt.

# ? Jun 22, 2020 05:14

Wallet: Jun 19, 2006

ultrachrist posted:

I see where you're going with this, but to me the end result feels sterilized. "so-called" sets up the tone of the story and also tells you the character isn't happy. "Or wait" further sets the tone and demonstrates a major theme in the story: the protagonist arguing with herself. Again, this isn't to say I'm using the right words or using them well, just what I am trying to convey. The story is dull, but everyone else seems interested. Protag speculates that this is because a) Dave and Rahul are thirsting after Val or b) her brain broke. I feel like that gets stripped out with the cut details.

I edited it pretty aggressively, but that push back is exactly what you need to look for when doing it. The things that can get crossed out and not make you go "Hey, wait a second, I need that!" are the ones that are filler.

# ? Jun 22, 2020 12:54

take the moon: Feb 13, 2011; by sebmojo

ultrachrist posted:

But I also don't know what the hell the difference between a hare and a rabbit is.

never fear

hares are dashing rogues and hardened warriors. they say things like 'death on the wind' and 'blood & vinegar' & also speak in old British piker slang for some reason. they tend to gather around the great battle mountain salamandastron and serve under badger lords assembling into legions to protect the southwest from vermin

rabbits are prissy lil beezies lol

----------------
This thread brought to you by a tremendous dickhead!

# ? Jun 22, 2020 14:22

take the moon: Feb 13, 2011; by sebmojo

sorry 4 sig lol posting w/ a fork

# ? Jun 22, 2020 14:25

PHIZ KALIFA: Dec 21, 2011; #mood

Have any of you had positive experiences with ghostwriting agencies? I think i need the practice writing novel-length works, and I want to get paid for it and using other peoples ideas means i don't experience rejection anxiety when i have to redo stuff. i saw a FB ad and I'm curious what real, established groups I should go with instead.

# ? Jun 22, 2020 19:35

Sham bam bamina!: Nov 6, 2012; ƨtupid cat

ultrachrist posted:

Does grammar acknowledge that the characters in the story don't truly exist?? You're right. It definitely reads better with "would".

It's a logical error, not a grammatical one; both versions are grammatically valid. "People you label colleagues" says that the reader knows these people and labels them colleagues, which cannot be true. The hypothetical "people you would label colleagues" says that there is a kind of person that the reader labels colleagues, that these people are that kind of person, and that the reader would therefore label them colleagues if he or she were in the character's shoes. One makes a patently false statement, while the other gives the outcome of two reasonably likely premises.

Sham bam bamina! fucked around with this message at 09:19 on Jun 23, 2020

# ? Jun 23, 2020 09:15

Stabbey_the_Clown: Sep 21, 2002; Are... are you quite sure you really want to say that?; Taco Defender

How disorienting would be be to the reader to use first-person perspective in a story which has chapters alternating between two different character viewpoints? That is, if you can keep their voices distinct from each other. I've been reluctant to try that. It might have some benefits over third-person, but there are always trade-offs and things which third-person can do better.

****

Doctor Zero posted:

The first time it happens she is at a so-called happy hour sipping a martini that tastes like a corroded battery surrounded by people you label colleagues, not friends.

"is surrounded" - passive. "type of people" - unnecessary. However, if I just cut them off, your second line is too short, so I ran them together. Keep in mind you don't HAVE to do it this way, this is for illustrative purposes. I also am aware it sounds like the corroded battery is surrounded, so the phrase order needs to be changed. Again, example.

Sorry to only offer a little bit of advice, but this piece of advice caught my eye and I thought, "That could be pared down even further", to this:

quote:

The first time it happens she is at a so-called happy hour sipping a martini that tastes like a corroded battery, surrounded by colleagues. Not friends[/b].

Not only is the sentence shorter, but making "Not friends" into its own sentence emphasizes it.

ultrachrist posted:

2. "She" vs. a name. I feel strongly about no name but I need to think harder on this. There's only one other scene (much later) in the story with pronoun ambiguity like this but I figure the reader is used to it by that point. It's much harder to swallow in the first paragraph. I'm aware of this and it used to be worse. I'll think this one over.

Your protagonist should have a name unless it's really important to the story that they don't. Perhaps you feel that that not giving a name helps distance the reader from the protagonist, and it does... but usually authors want their readers to do the opposite and connect strongly with their protagonists.

ultrachrist posted:

I wasn't entirely sure of this as I wrote it. I'm still not. The idea I was trying to convey is the focus of Dave and Rahul's faces goes from their eyes (the red light, watching Val) to their surprised, opened mouths at the weirdo protag interrupting with a nonsensical comment (green light). It's also supposed to be a little cartoonish, which is something that occurs in the story overall as it focuses on the cowboy show.

The idea is not conveyed very clearly. Perhaps try invoking images of things which have an actual face instead of inanimate objects like stoplights.

# ? Jun 23, 2020 20:12

Pththya-lyi: Nov 8, 2009; THUNDERDOME LOSER 2020

Stabbey_the_Clown posted:

How disorienting would be be to the reader to use first-person perspective in a story which has chapters alternating between two different character viewpoints? That is, if you can keep their voices distinct from each other. I've been reluctant to try that. It might have some benefits over third-person, but there are always trade-offs and things which third-person can do better.

This is extremely common in genre romance written for adults, with the text alternating between the two lovers' perspectives throughout. I like and expect this, and most romance readers expect alternating perspectives too. Sometimes a romance author will introduce a third viewpoint character when they can't figure out how to establish something one or both of the lovers don't directly witness. This is rarely handled well -- as a reader, I usually find it jarring and just want to get back to the characters and the romance arc I'm already invested in. I guess the important thing is to give the alternating characters equal air time and let them drive the story.

# ? Jun 23, 2020 21:19

Getsuya: Oct 2, 2013

I'm really sorry to drag this in here but could someone post the Discord links for the Thunderdome and Writing Discords? I'd like to make sure I'm still connected with good goon communities if/when this place goes down.

# ? Jun 24, 2020 14:10

SelenicMartian: Sep 14, 2013; Sometimes it's not the bomb that's retarded.

Same.

# ? Jun 24, 2020 14:14

REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS: Oct 3, 2003; What do you think it means, bitch?

Getsuya posted:

I'm really sorry to drag this in here but could someone post the Discord links for the Thunderdome and Writing Discords? I'd like to make sure I'm still connected with good goon communities if/when this place goes down.

What�s this all aboot?

# ? Jun 24, 2020 14:17

SelenicMartian: Sep 14, 2013; Sometimes it's not the bomb that's retarded.

REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS posted:

What�s this all aboot?

As usual, Lowtax beats women

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3928980

Watch his patreon take a dive!

# ? Jun 24, 2020 14:20

Getsuya: Oct 2, 2013

REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS posted:

What�s this all aboot?

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3928980

Lowtax is hemorrhaging Patreons now and everyone's worried he'll take the forum down with him. We all just want to make sure we keep the connections we want to keep even if the forum dies.

# ? Jun 24, 2020 14:20

General Battuta: Feb 7, 2011; This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.

quote:

A while ago, some goon wrote a thread scraper for SA.

I forked the code and fixed the error messages, then did it again when chrome started hating on http connections or something. It's now the single thing I have available on github, because it would be rude not to let the orginal author know that somebody still loves his dead gay code:

https://github.com/Fumblemouse/SA-Archiving-Tool

To use:

Hit the big green Clone button and download it as a zip file.

Extract the zip file somewhere on your local hard drive.

In Chrome, go Settings -> More Tools -> Extensions and flick the Developer Mode switch on the top right.

There should now be an option to Load Unpacked on the left. Ignoring the untold comedy potential for that phrase, click the option and find the folder you extracted the zip to - by default, SA-Archiving-Tool-master. Select that folder and click the Open button.

All going well you should now have a hard-to-see SA icon on the chrome extension bar. If you visit a SA thread with a thread ID, eg https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3903748 the icon should now be clickable with a single option...Archive.

Click that link, and your local PC will think for a while, depending on your local tubespeed, then display a single page with the entire thread on it. CTRL+S or Rightclick Save As and save it whereever you want. WebPage, Complete will save images also.

Because nothing in life is easy, the saved page's HTML CSS tags refers to something set up by the chrome extension, so it will look a bit crappy in another browser or if you remove the extension. This can be fixed by changing the CSS reference in the Saved As HTML file to the files in the /archive folder from the extracted zipfile - or you could copy the /archive css files into the HTML file's folder and just have the tags as direct links to files (no folder references)

Go crazy!

Here's a tool and instructions for archiving threads, courtesy of a goon named Fumblemouse, not sure if there's a page limit on it.

# ? Jun 25, 2020 01:16

unattended spaghetti: May 10, 2013

Basically never contribute in here, but I just want to say thanks for y�all doing what you do. It�s been enriching. Never did a Thunderdome cause I�m still in the make excuses why I can�t dedicate myself to writing stage, but I�ll get past that eventually. Would just like to express gratitude for you all and this thread�s existence.

# ? Jun 25, 2020 01:38

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 21, 2024 10:43

Regalingualius: Jan 7, 2012; We gazed into the eyes of madness... And all we found was horny.

Wish I�d gotten around to reading more of this before this current shitshow, if the worst is coming to pass. I�ll check out the discords linked above.

# ? Jun 25, 2020 04:09

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > Creative Convention > Fiction Writing Advice and Discussion: Read. Write. Crit. Repeat.

«‹›148 »