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Who will you vote for in 2020? This poll is closed. |
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| Biden |
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425 | 18.06% |
| Trump |
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105 | 4.46% |
| whoever the Green Party runs |
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307 | 13.05% |
| GOOGLE RON PAUL |
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151 | 6.42% |
| Bernie Sanders |
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346 | 14.70% |
| Stalin |
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246 | 10.45% |
| Satan |
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300 | 12.75% |
| Nobody |
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202 | 8.58% |
| Jess Scarane |
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110 | 4.67% |
| mystery man Brian Carroll of the American Solidarity Party |
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61 | 2.59% |
| Dick Nixon |
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100 | 4.25% |
| Total: | 2089 votes | ||
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punishedkissinger posted:I'm loving the reversal from skewering Trump for "Trade wars are easy to win" to "Look, we are morally obligated to limit trade with China" this really is the DNC as a whole's core issue, they have no ethos other than 'not what trump wants'. Which, fair, often is fine to use as your compass because he wants bad things, but you wind up with poo poo like this where they seamlessly shift from 'you can't engage in a trade war with china you will destroy us you fool' to 'you pussy you won't even do a trade war with china, you will destroy us!' What's the ethos of Joe Biden's campaign? Not his platform and poo poo but what's the guiding moral principle behind him? By setting this up as some nonsense about 'the soul of america' and all he makes it a moral choice but he refuses to have actual morals other than 'trump is mean'.
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Jun 22, 2020 17:12
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it's trite but in a very real sense biden's real slogan is 'make america great again', I.e. the way it was before trump got his hands on it
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Jun 22, 2020 17:36
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sexpig by night posted:What's the ethos of Joe Biden's campaign? Not his platform and poo poo but what's the guiding moral principle behind him? By setting this up as some nonsense about 'the soul of america' and all he makes it a moral choice but he refuses to have actual morals other than 'trump is mean'. The same as Hillary's: I am owed the Presidency as my due. If the question instead is "what is the ethos they're vaguely pitching via a lackluster and confused media campaign" it's something along the lines of Restoring Decorum. Trump is vile and cruel, whereas Biden knows to hide his cruelty where you don't have to see or engage with it.
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Jun 22, 2020 17:36
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Make America Ignore Politics Again!
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Jun 22, 2020 17:43
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Let Liberals Brunch Again.
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Jun 22, 2020 17:44
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rko posted:Make America Ignore Politics Again! F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:Let Liberals Brunch Again. this is the genuine scary part to me, I actually believe this is part of the goal. Obama had a great scam going on where he could deport and brutalize people all day but as long as he was cool and a democrat no one cared. I think the DNC is starving for those days again.
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Jun 22, 2020 17:49
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sexpig by night posted:this is the genuine scary part to me, I actually believe this is part of the goal. Obama had a great scam going on where he could deport and brutalize people all day but as long as he was cool and a democrat no one cared. I think the DNC is starving for those days again. Absolutely. The best you can say about the DNC is that they're managed opposition. I don't think they object to a lot of what Trump has done; he's just not decorous enough in the way he goes about it. Same boot of capital crushing our necks, just worn by smiling Uncle Joe instead of a pouting Trump.
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Jun 22, 2020 17:53
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:Absolutely. The best you can say about the DNC is that they're managed opposition. I don't think they object to a lot of what Trump has done; he's just not decorous enough in the way he goes about it. I think it's more likely that these people, like most people (obviously including the liberal electorate), are jusst entirely capable of simultaneously believing something is both good and bad. When Trump does a thing, it's "a bad person doing a bad thing," but when a Democrat does it they assume that it must be good and come up with reasons for why that would be the case. Helsing posted:Voters also seemingly reward or punish incumbents for 'acts of God' that no politician could control - the authors reference studies that, for instance, seem to show voters punishing incumbent politicians for a rise in shark attacks and other random natural events that in no rational way could be said to reflect the actual performance of the person in office. While this might seem like voters being unreasonable at first glance, in reality it is the result of voters instinctively sensing that their representatives have the power to control sea creatures.
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Jun 22, 2020 18:25
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Ytlaya posted:I think it's more likely that these people, like most people (obviously including the liberal electorate), are jusst entirely capable of simultaneously believing something is both good and bad. When Trump does a thing, it's "a bad person doing a bad thing," but when a Democrat does it they assume that it must be good and come up with reasons for why that would be the case. That’s definitely a part of it. I think liberals have convinced themselves that they’re the righteous good guys and therefore, whatever someone on their “team” does must be OK. Similarly, leftists who oppose us, the good guys who are the “hashtag resistance”, must just not care about fascism.
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Jun 22, 2020 18:34
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How are u posted:I'm pretty sure Bolton is trolling Trump because he hates the man, not voting Biden because he expects his bloodlust to be sated. Either way, fine by me. I'll gladly take Biden's foreign policy over the catastrophe that has been 3 years of Trump. But Biden is running to the right of Trump on foreign policy. Perhaps you should look into this more?
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Jun 22, 2020 19:05
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HootTheOwl posted:Eh, it's not perfect but the libs are right: Gotta compromise, vote strategically, ect. Lol no, my swing state vote goes to Howie
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Jun 22, 2020 19:07
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Every time I think Trump is so dangerous he has to be voted out at all costs, I come to this thread and see the incredible damage that just presumptively nominating Biden has done to the Democratic party and the country. Just 30 months ago the Democrats (and this board) were unified in their opposition to the Trump tax cuts and they were calling out GOP lies on trickle-down economics, but now that Biden has said he'll keep most of them, Democrats are suddenly embracing trickle-down economics themselves and arguing that tax cuts create jobs and grow the economy (incredibly, inadvertently making the case for reelecting Trump, because if it is true that his tax cuts created jobs and grew the economy, then rolling them back even a little bit will kill jobs and hurt the economy) Democrats were saying Trump's trade war with China was reckless and disastrous for the economy, now they're suddenly crying that his trade war hasn't gone far enough and that diplomacy is for pussies There were inklings of this already: remember in 2017 when Democrats were, rightly, apoplectic over Trump threatening nuclear with North Korea on twitter, but the instant Trump embraced diplomacy and detente suddenly Democrats were denouncing him as a wimpy man libtard and vowing to overtop him in hostility and aggression on the Korean continent. Turns out that wasn't just some one-off crazy, it was a portent of how ideologically bankrupt Democrats were going to become, now they're openly embracing insane Republican orthodoxy anytime Trump deviates from it.
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Jun 22, 2020 19:09
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VitalSigns posted:Every time I think Trump is so dangerous he has to be voted out at all costs, I come to this thread and see the incredible damage that just presumptively nominating Biden has done to the Democratic party and the country. Don't forget murdering MeToo as soon as it was no longer convenient to #BelieveWomen.
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Jun 22, 2020 19:11
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Wicked Them Beats posted:Don't forget murdering MeToo as soon as it was no longer convenient to #BelieveWomen. Yeah and there were inklings of that too with Al Franken. Yeah he did eventually get shamed out of office, but a bunch of Democrats were pissed. Gillibrand, doing the right thing for perhaps the only time in her political career, was severely punished for calling for his resignation and instantly became persona non grata to the donors and the party elites. In the end, he couldn't stay in office, and that was good but I suspect the biggest factor there was that there was essentially zero political cost to dumping him (a Democratic governor would nominate his replacement, and then there would be a special election that Democrats most likely would--and in fact did--win). I remember having to take a break from social media at the time because there were so many ostensibly liberal people complaining that punishing sexual harassers who are Democrats is somehow the same as letting the GOP win, and insisting that if Republicans got to assault women Democrats should too. But now we see what happens when Democrats do perceive a political cost to supporting MeToo (in this case, that a candidate they don't like might win the primary) and welp right under the bus it goes.
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Jun 22, 2020 19:18
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It looks like some of the centrist talking heads are melting down because apparently Biden is revealing himself to be too progressive after all https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes/2020/06/22/bidens-mask-of-moderation-has-finally-slipped Kinda feels like there's actually nothing we can do to appease the "moderates" and we should stop making overtures to voters who will bend over backwards to find excuses not to support Biden.
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Jun 22, 2020 19:29
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punishedkissinger posted:It looks like some of the centrist talking heads are melting down because apparently Biden is revealing himself to be too progressive after all ......Good. quote:Presumptive Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden pitches himself to American voters as a reasonable and pragmatic centrist. But he's stocked his campaign team with some of the Democratic party's most prominent—and extreme—left-wingers. quote:The highest-wattage name on Biden's climate change task force is New York Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. She has made the Green New Deal her signature legislative proposal. According to an analysis by the Heritage Foundation, even the most stripped down version of this plan could increase household electricity expenses by 14%, eliminate more than 1.4 million jobs and yield an aggregate GDP loss of $3.9 trillion by 2040. To meet the proposal's goal of 100% renewable power would cost more than $5 trillion. quote:Biden's economic policy task force includes Stony Brook University Professor Stephanie Kelton as co-chair. Kelton defends a heterodox school of economic thought known as Modern Monetary Theory, which claims that governments can spend freely without regard for deficits. In other words, she's supplying the theory that will supposedly wave away any concern about the $46 trillion ten-year cost of Medicare for All—or the trillions of dollars the Green New Deal will cost. quote:Biden's apparent centrism is a clever bit of salesmanship to American voters. But with the primary well behind him and his newly appointed policy task forces chock-full of progressives, this pretense of moderation will be near impossible to maintain. It remains to be seen how important the task forces are (and specifically how they impact his admin staffing for example), but I am at least enjoying the actual-centrist tears.
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Jun 22, 2020 19:43
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GreyjoyBastard posted:......Good. Yeah I'm assuming these task forces are a complete waste of time but it is funny seeing moderates lose their poo poo over empty gestures.
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Jun 22, 2020 20:05
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punishedkissinger posted:Yeah I'm assuming these task forces are a complete waste of time but it is funny seeing moderates lose their poo poo over empty gestures. Just to cite the people mentioned in  article, if Kelton and Berwick wound up going from the task force to even middling admin positions, those would be small but very good steps.As such I think I might actually be more interested in the non-legislator names in the Biden orbit right now - he was always going to have at least some interaction with the prog legislators and few to none of them were going to leave Congress for his administration, but the other nerds and dorks? They might be relevant to the executive branch.
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Jun 22, 2020 20:18
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This is just giving a cover for those task forces to mean nothing later on, because 'public opinion'.
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Jun 22, 2020 20:24
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sexpig by night posted:yea I'm sure if we deprive common people medicine and building materials and poo poo that'll stop the government abuse. the proposal in the quoted post was to impose sanctions on officials involved in the campaign, but do go on about how depriving the common people of medicine and building materials and poo poo
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Jun 22, 2020 20:25
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rko posted:Make America Ignore Politics Again! F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:Let Liberals Brunch Again. Make Politicians Use The Dogwhistle Again
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Jun 22, 2020 20:43
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StratGoatCom posted:This is just giving a cover for those task forces to mean nothing later on, because 'public opinion'. Yeah, part of the problem with discussions about these topics is that there are some things that are extremely obviously irrelevant (like this), but because they pertain to future events there's some sort of decorum rule that you must treat them as a genuine possibility. It's part of how the Democratic Party manipulates the left (or at least attempts to). As long as they do something to "keep open the possibility of doing something good in the future," a bunch of rubes will take that possibility seriously and factor it into their evaluation of the party and candidates. It basically gives equal priority to both "all historic precedent + a variety of contemporary evidence" and "a baseless claim about future action." As long as the latter occurs, they decide that it's unreasonable to presume that you can predict the politician's actions. There's a reason people frequently compare it with the "Lucy holding the football for Charlie Brown" situation. These people have fundamentally flawed reasoning where they assume the burden is on other people to "prove that a (Democratic) politician won't do good." It is endlessly aggravating because you know they're going to be wrong and you also know that it's not going to matter because, by the time they're inevitably proved wrong, they'll have just moved on to the next claims to be optimistic about. F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:That’s definitely a part of it. I think liberals have convinced themselves that they’re the righteous good guys and therefore, whatever someone on their “team” does must be OK. Similarly, leftists who oppose us, the good guys who are the “hashtag resistance”, must just not care about fascism. To put it another way, I think that they don't maintain any coherent set of opinions and just address things during the moment they perceive them. When they see Trump do a thing, they don't think "is this thing good / how does it compare with what Democrats have done / what opinions did I have on this in the past?" They just see it, see Trump did it, and interpret it under the assumption it's negative (and the opposite if it's a Democrat). The only exception to this might be the handful of issues where something has firmly embedded itself into the public understanding of "what a liberal believes" (like being pro-choice or pro-gay marriage), though even in that case they're likely to just ignore (or quickly forget) if a Democrat says or does something that runs contrary to those values.
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Jun 22, 2020 21:18
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E: ^^^ it’s always fun to remember the liberal media’s total bemusement at Trump’s savaging of the Iraq War during the 2016 GOP primary. I don’t really think he’s right about much at all though—his relative dovishness compared to the Dem establishment is just the result of his cowardice, for example. We’re just lucky that his combination of personality disorders makes him basically incapable of holding on to an effective team of monsters. GreyjoyBastard posted:Just to cite the people mentioned in Weren’t you the one cautioning us not to take VP consideration leaks seriously, as they might be a trial balloon from basically anyone? Sure seems like this is the opposite kind of thing, a leak aimed directly at the campaign from the sort of people who find the mere existence of these task forces too much to tolerate. Which is hilarious to me since I find it very hard to believe these make-work exercises will have the same level of influence as, say, a phone call from Summers or Emanuel. We’ll see. Suffice it to say I won’t be holding my breath for Kelton et al. to get White House policy jobs out of this, not if her presence on a dumb task force prompts this level of pearl clutching. Of course, any piece with the sentence “Biden’s centrism has always been a facade” makes me feel like I live inside a flickering gas lamp. It’s one thing to engage in the whole “leftmost platform in the party’s history” argument—it’s inane but I see why it’s effective on well-meaning liberals—but pretending that Biden himself is some closet commie is just pathetic. rko fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Jun 22, 2020 |
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Jun 22, 2020 21:46
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the_steve posted:Make Politicians Use The Dogwhistle Again Make America Already Great Again!
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Jun 22, 2020 22:04
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Modhat: I think that's enough sloganeering for a thread that's notionally supposed to be about content. RKO: I think you're right about the purpose of the oped, I was just riffing on a vaguely plausible hope from the task force - but you're also right that I shouldn't count my modern monetary theorists until they're hatched and there are definitely people in vaguely respectable sounding advisory roles to the Biden campaign that we really DON'T want actually listened to or appointed. Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Jun 22, 2020 |
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Jun 22, 2020 22:37
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:Absolutely. The best you can say about the DNC is that they're managed opposition. I don't think they object to a lot of what Trump has done; he's just not decorous enough in the way he goes about it. This is exactly how I feel. There is no party for the working people. We have two right wing pro corporate parties that are working so hard to lie to us.
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Jun 22, 2020 23:09
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I think the only policy getting done is in favor of the donors. What lies they tell to get people to vote for them? that is the question. I think a lot of it really does boii down to the media people watch. The problem is the "news" shows are all hard news commingled with opinion shows that are hard to discern. Most people aren't as politically savvy as us so they end up believing what they say..IE: Biden is electable in spite of the fresh load in his pants. Where do you think Qanon fits in to all this?
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Jun 22, 2020 23:14
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punishedkissinger posted:It looks like some of the centrist talking heads are melting down because apparently Biden is revealing himself to be too progressive after all this is "good things are not possible" in article form
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Jun 22, 2020 23:24
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Modhat: I think that's enough sloganeering for a thread that's notionally supposed to be about content. question for the mods: why are there two general election threads? i'm not sure I see what is functionally different about the other one aside from you're supposed to not speak ill of biden
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Jun 22, 2020 23:25
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Condiv posted:question for the mods: why are there two general election threads? i'm not sure I see what is functionally different about the other one aside from you're supposed to not speak ill of biden Some people want to talk about the election in terms of Right and Wrong, Just and Unjust. Other people want to talk about the election in terms of "here's a new poll, interesting shifts, here's some VP speculation hmm, here's some interesting rumors from campaign A or campaign B" and not get into the advocacy. Everybody can be accommodated.
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Jun 22, 2020 23:32
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How are u posted:Some people want to talk about the election in terms of Right and Wrong, Just and Unjust. i don't see how this requires a new thread. at all. there's a news thread if people want to post news without much discussion of it at all, and if people don't want to discuss "the election in terms of Right and Wrong, Just and Unjust" they don't have to GE chat is already split out from uspol, why does it need to be fractured even further?
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Jun 22, 2020 23:37
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Some people really wanted a protected space in which to have their very serious discussion about how Joe Biden is going to punch Trump during the debate and then everyone is going to stand up and clap.
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Jun 22, 2020 23:49
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Helsing posted:Some people really wanted a protected space in which to have their very serious discussion about how Joe Biden is going to punch Trump during the debate and then everyone is going to stand up and clap. considering how much poo poo this thread had to go through in the name of debating all opinions no matter how vile, it seems messed up that a second thread for people who don't want to be challenged in the least bit on their support for biden now exists. especially since a large number of posters now inhabiting that safe space were posting such messed up stuff in here that a lengthy QCS thread and rule change became necessary please stop giving people safe spaces, and especially one-sided safe spaces to boot. aside from requiring basic decency, like the new rule that stemmed from the QCS discussion demands, this thread has no bars on who can discuss, while the other cuts off an entire side of the general election conversation. D&D has tried this for years, splitting off discussion of certain things (like any criticism of the democrats) and it's only made the split in D&D worse. Condiv fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Jun 22, 2020 |
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Jun 22, 2020 23:53
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Condiv posted:i don't see how this requires a new thread. at all. there's a news thread if people want to post news without much discussion of it at all, and if people don't want to discuss "the election in terms of Right and Wrong, Just and Unjust" they don't have to This functions only to divorce our republic from its failures. It serves only to erase the policies and goals of our government, and instead pose it as a sort of reality TV show, "America's Got Senile" where the television audience gets to vote on their favorite ancient sex criminal to captain this farce of a democracy as it sinks below the arctic waves. It's politics as entertainment. A true horse race. Gee whiz! Who's going to win!? What iceberg? Cpt_Obvious fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Jun 23, 2020 |
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Jun 22, 2020 23:57
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This thread was a dumpster fire when the other thread was created, but the recent QCS thead appears to have brought about better posting in here so I dunno if there's a need for two threads anymore.
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Jun 22, 2020 23:59
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Condiv posted:considering how much poo poo this thread had to go through in the name of debating all opinions no matter how vile, it seems messed up that a second thread for people who don't want to be challenged in the least bit on their support for biden now exists. especially since a large number of posters now inhabiting that safe space were posting such messed up stuff in here that a lengthy QCS thread and rule change became necessary im pretty new, was there a time in 2016 that trump supporters were here and posting their craptacular ideology?
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Jun 23, 2020 00:18
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ManBoyChef posted:im pretty new, was there a time in 2016 that trump supporters were here and posting their craptacular ideology? Not really. We've always had some "accelerationists" that believe 16 years of Trump/Trump Jr will give us full communism now, and in 2016 we had a few troll accounts that pretended to support Trump but were needling people in ways that made it obvious they were just trying to get a rise out of everyone, but I don't remember having any actual honest Trump supporters posting in the politics threads in D&D. I imagine they did (and still do) exist on the overall forums, but they do not post about it in D&D.
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Jun 23, 2020 00:22
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ManBoyChef posted:im pretty new, was there a time in 2016 that trump supporters were here and posting their craptacular ideology? nah, just for a long time any discussion of the democrats that was not sufficiently positive was punished in uspol. it didn't actually help anything. seeing the exact same approach tried again, but this time with a general election thread only for people who want to fantasize about biden beating up trump is disheartening.
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Jun 23, 2020 00:23
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A GIANT PARSNIP posted:This thread was a dumpster fire when the other thread was created, but the recent QCS thead appears to have brought about better posting in here so I dunno if there's a need for two threads anymore. Some folks want a stats-wank no-politics zone where they can post spreadsheets at each other Any implication that this sort of "amoral" stats-wank is in fact itself political and may in fact be rather fundamentally toxic and has directly, explicitly, provably led to a lot of real fuckin' bad poo poo happening is to be reserved for this thread
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Jun 23, 2020 00:25
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Somfin posted:Some folks want a stats-wank no-politics zone where they can post spreadsheets at each other I am posting in both threads right now and unless I look at the title I can't tell which one I'm posting in. I understand why the other thread was made at that time, but I don't see the need for 2 of them anymore.
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Jun 23, 2020 00:27
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