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OwlFancier posted:I'm not sure I'm running on courage at this point any more than someone falling out of a plane is courageously proceeding towards the ground. But the sentiment is appreciated 
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Jun 25, 2020 19:00
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to you too, darlings all of you.
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Jun 25, 2020 19:01
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Barry Foster posted:It was cause I was worried about Covid - afaict you can't care about that and climate change at the same time Not sure how they work that but it sounds very stupid. Barry Foster posted:Edit but genuinely, honestly, thank you
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Jun 25, 2020 19:09
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It's loving shite to see Labour revert to being the lighter shade of blue party, what a grim little island we live on.
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Jun 25, 2020 19:11
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forkboy84 posted:Mate, when have you ever offered a suggestion that wasn't neoliberalism or meaningless word salad? sometimes it's both
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Jun 25, 2020 19:12
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bessantj posted:Not sure how they work that but it sounds very stupid. It was caught up in their growing discomfort with our comfortable middle class friend group. Which I understood, but our friends are all very left wing (by the standards of the genpop) but not full on vegan climate warriors, and these particular peeps were cross that the wider group responded to covid but not climate change, because they considered it rank self interest. My argument that it was a sublime opportunity for a Teachable Moment fell on deaf ears. Caring for your family while caring less for far off people, wanting to take action in a crisis, are unforgiveably liberal and self centered. Which I get, but also, if that's the standard you're gonna hold humanity to, then the whole species is dead already It's not just mean, it's a waste for radicalisation purposes. But they're rapidly turning into a fundamentalist Movement of Two, and everything I say to try to dissuade them from that path only further radicalises them into it. /personal chat
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Jun 25, 2020 19:17
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Maugrim posted:Will RS21 rename after 2021 ends? '21st century' thankfully so we have a lot of time to come up with a better name and also I'll be dead before it's relevant.
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Jun 25, 2020 19:18
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Re breadnroses - I just checked and I'm in - I didn't get a notification or anything. I applied this morning. Ed: I know someone posted where UKMT has got to on there, but I can't find the post! Ed2: I found the succ zone & the uk is a garbage place thread. I take it that's it? I recognize posters from here. Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Jun 25, 2020 |
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Jun 25, 2020 19:22
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Guavanaut posted:I'd like the ronya take on this piece which seems to make the unusual argument that everyone is liberals pretending to be nationalists (only this time it's the reactionaries doing it), and the more usual argument that there is only global liberalism or thuggish nation-states (but at least concedes both are bad). Dani Rodrik has an influential form of the argument pitched as a trilemma since the late 1990s, where the world-system must pick two out of three: deep global economic integration (common markets, capital flows, etc), politics at the level of nation-states, or politics being effectively democratically responsive to civil-social dissatisfaction. The intuition is similar to what is laid out in the article. Rodrik is, naturally, a fan of proposing limitations on #1 in order to keep #2 and #3. There's also a Thomas Friedman version but I refuse to accord it dignity. The problem with pitching #1 however is that voters turned out not to be all too enthusiastic for it either (the year is not 2001 and economists are not mainly preoccupied in stunned musing about the Battle in Seattle and the troubled Doha talks). This is what SYRIZA went on to discover, eventually: its electoral tent turns out to also prioritize internationalism in the sense of retaining membership in the Eurozone. It turns out that there are actually remarkably few fans for the return of Bretton Woods and tight exchange controls. So voters refuse to endorse any particular outcomes, their representatives duly also also refuse to endorse any particular outcomes, and politics gets to be unusually exciting for a while. Any resemblance to the House of Commons on recent economic-integration questions is coincidental, I'm sure. This is where the 'everyone: actually neoliberals in self-denial' card comes into play. Accusations of intellectual dishonesty are unfair I think - voters are allowed to contain self-contradictory multitudes, they do that all the time. There aren't any quick answers there I think, it's kind of a common way to frame the problem but not present any intuitive solutions. I haven't seen any, anyway. Some ideas I have seen tossed around: - maybe it's all China shock? The rise of China was massive, much more than the earlier rise of the East Asian tiger states or Newly Industrialized Countries merely due to size alone. People complained when the factories moved to Taiwan, then they complained some more when the factories moved to Indonesia, and then they complained again when they moved to China, but the China decade was so much bigger than all the others put together. But it'll only industrialize once... waiting in the wings is Vietnam, but Vietnam is much smaller. So potentially it's just the one-off wave? India seems more headed to a middle income trap. - maybe Europe can transition to fiscal union? Maybe independent fiscal authority will suffice to satisfy the German suspicion of Southern European governance? - maybe the SYRIZA/Podemos/Corbyn/Sanders wave will transform everything and forge a consensus for something, rather than nothing? This seems to have petered out as of late. Nobody thinks the right-populist or yellow-jacket-populist tendencies have an actual idea that can win pluralities either. Macronism subsists on such a vacuum. - maybe stagnation and low growth is the real problem, and it'll all just go away with the next boom, whatever it is? - maybe polarization is the real problem? The preceding discussion assumes throughout that nation-state politics holds, so that a 55% victory is a clear mandate and a 60% victory is a landslide unstoppable march of history making itself felt. Even if four in ten people voted for not-that. But if actually what is happening is disintegration to even smaller political tribes, then... idk. I am really writing all of this off the top of my head, I have not looked into this topic for months e: one notable aspect of the whole argument - since the 1990s the apocalyptic scenario of a race to the bottom has dropped out of the debate entirely, to be replaced with concerns over immigration. It is just too obvious that China is actually getting much richer being the world's smokestack; it is clearly not a hapless victim of exploitation. Maybe the supposed economic dimension is just a proxy for a revival of the old angst over multikulti, now that Europe begins to have a visible minority level above 2% and the US for its part sheds a white majority. Social spending in the developed world has after all not actually fallen appreciably... stir in an aging society to mix. For all the supposed disenchantment with the GATT/WTO order, after all, the great populist wave doesn't seem to be demanding to have regional economic pacts or self-sufficiency. They're demanding that cultural anxieties be met. ronya fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Jun 25, 2020 |
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Jun 25, 2020 19:26
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Barry Foster posted:It was caught up in their growing discomfort with our comfortable middle class friend group. Which I understood, but our friends are all very left wing (by the standards of the genpop) but not full on vegan climate warriors, and these particular peeps were cross that the wider group responded to covid but not climate change, because they considered it rank self interest. Does sound like you were banging your head against a brick wall a bit.
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Jun 25, 2020 19:33
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The posters and posts which just call ronya a wanker or just instantly dismiss his consistently thoughtful and sincere posts because they're not as inherently Correct as the rest of us are one of the few things dragging this thread down. They add nothing other than empty, misdirected bile.
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Jun 25, 2020 19:35
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Re breadnroses - I just checked and I'm in - I didn't get a notification or anything. I applied this morning. I think we haven't officially moved over until we know what's happening but yes that's the right place more or less.
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Jun 25, 2020 19:36
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The Perfect Element posted:The posters and posts which just call ronya a wanker or just instantly dismiss his consistently thoughtful and sincere posts because they're not as inherently Correct as the rest of us are one of the few things dragging this thread down. Good, glad to be of service
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Jun 25, 2020 19:39
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So, buried (well cremated) my dad today. SA is dying and the Labour party is now firmly a hostile environment for left wing views. This week can gently caress off. The month can gently caress off. 2020 can gently caress off. I've lurked here for years and years. Glad to be here at the end of it. Also its Ober, not Communism Bitch.
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Jun 25, 2020 19:41
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Owen is a good lad who means we'll, but he is getting rightly bodied in the replies https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1276205773698347010?s=20
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Jun 25, 2020 19:41
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well the mods are putting their resignations in as lowtax' latest accuser is heading to her home after being hospitalised from what sounds like emotional exhaustion in the one bright piece of news I've had recently, the travelodge homeless shelter program near my house has received funding and go-ahead to continue it's program. Half of the known rough sleepers in canterbury and dover are already in permanent accomodation and there's clearance for social workers to go into work there to start helping the rest with long-term problems that will also need to be addressed alongside securing a flat (yeah, I know, but landlords) the place is hilariously hosed up and there's an absurd number of riot vans every day over two people but the neighbours, bless em all, have been remarkably solid on the "well, people in these conditions need a roof, and it's not any noisier than when the pub was open"
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Jun 25, 2020 19:41
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Jakabite posted:As an anarchist who’s massively critical of the left, can confirm that RS21 are One Of The Good Ones. In London at least. They also take abuse seriously unlike massive swathes of the left. Am I right in thinking rs21 were the ones that split off from the SWP over comrade delta? I was meaning to get involved with them when I moved to London but uh, life happens and I keep forgetting
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Jun 25, 2020 19:44
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The Perfect Element posted:ronya...consistently thoughtful and sincere posts this is the best laugh I've had since "an engaging and high-impact poster with a lot to offer" e: actually no, that's not fair, I do actually believe ronya's posts are both thoughtful and sincere the problem is that thoughtful and sincere posts about how neoliberalism is the solution, actually are worth about as much to me as a bucket of warm piss Julio Cruz fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Jun 25, 2020 |
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Jun 25, 2020 19:45
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"haakman" posted:
I think you mean Oboe Lieutenant
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Jun 25, 2020 19:47
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XMNN posted:Owen is a good lad who means we'll, but he is getting rightly bodied in the replies What a stupid prat. But it does make sense & further convinces me that the odds of the SCG doing the right thing & walking & taking the unions with them are close to zero sadly.
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Jun 25, 2020 19:47
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forkboy84 posted:What a stupid prat. But it does make sense & further convinces me that the odds of the SCG doing the right thing & walking & taking the unions with them are close to zero sadly. Yup. All else aside, they are *currently in power* and walking risks them losing that in the next election, so they won't unless they have an absolute lock on every single union. People are broken by power. E: waiting to stick an oar in the NEC election might actually be a solid argument for not jacking it in right this second, though. thespaceinvader fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Jun 25, 2020 |
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Jun 25, 2020 19:51
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The Perfect Element posted:The posters and posts which just call ronya a wanker or just instantly dismiss his consistently thoughtful and sincere posts because they're not as inherently Correct as the rest of us are one of the few things dragging this thread down. Genuinely interested, do you find that your understanding of the world has increased after reading them?
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Jun 25, 2020 19:53
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ronya posted:A challenger for the Labour leadership would need 20% of MPs to support a bid - since there are 202 Labour MPs and 10 Labour MEPs, this translates to 43 sponsors. It is likely that a leadership challenger from the left could find sufficient sponsors - the SCG is already 35 MPs - but there would need to be a sharper trigger for a challenge and a figure to rally around. Burgon is too contentious. surely the 10 former MEPs don't count since 31/01/20 ? admittedly that only lowers the cutoff to 41
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Jun 25, 2020 19:53
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between the pandemic, Labour being thoroughly hijacked and the arctic being on fire, it really does feel like the end of the world doesn't it? and SA falling just adds to the feeling
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Jun 25, 2020 19:54
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Mugsbaloney posted:Genuinely interested, do you find that your understanding of the world has increased after reading them? my understanding of ronya has increased after reading them that understanding being "look how many long words I can use, I am so much smarter than all of you cretins"
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Jun 25, 2020 19:57
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Julio Cruz posted:this is the best laugh I've had since "an engaging and high-impact poster with a lot to offer" that last ronya post is a banger and there's prior form I'd read the poo poo out of ronya written/owlfancier edited longpiece nitpicking and if he wasn't surrounded by lefties I imagine we'd cherish his phenominal commitment to contradiction and wordcount haakman posted:So, buried (well cremated) my dad today. SA is dying and the Labour party is now firmly a hostile environment for left wing views. 2020 can gently caress off, solidarity. I hope you're holding up alright and have had an opportunity to remember him, even if zoom wakes are difficult.
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Jun 25, 2020 19:57
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Re breadnroses - I just checked and I'm in - I didn't get a notification or anything. I applied this morning. in case people aren't aware the people who run bread and roses are dodgy as gently caress. like 2 sex pests and someone who outs trans people dodgy
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Jun 25, 2020 19:57
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The Perfect Element posted:The posters and posts which just call ronya a wanker or just instantly dismiss his consistently thoughtful and sincere posts because they're not as inherently Correct as the rest of us are one of the few things dragging this thread down. Tbf the posters that tend to do this over and over again are the epitome of white noise so I wouldn't worry about it too much
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Jun 25, 2020 19:58
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a thought: the new-generation Labour left leaving in droves would refuel demands for proportional vote, the new gen were never really in the CLPD mission of aiming for a Labour majority under FPTP, and given the lay of the land in Scotland, this might actually stick this time around - LAB and CON both have something potentially to gain from having their Scottish vote be worth something rather than nearly nothingCerv posted:surely the 10 former MEPs don't count since 31/01/20 ? Good point
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Jun 25, 2020 19:58
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Mugsbaloney posted:Genuinely interested, do you find that your understanding of the world has increased after reading them? I understood why I'd never have fit in doing a PPE which is something. haakman, very sorry to hear about your loss. Hope you're okay.
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Jun 25, 2020 19:59
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Socialist Campaign Group is meeting tonight (according to Skwawkbox)
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Jun 25, 2020 20:03
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bionic vapour boy posted:Am I right in thinking rs21 were the ones that split off from the SWP over comrade delta? Yes that's us, although there was another group called the ISN who also split at the time but they didn't last. It's been years since then though and our internal culture is hugely different from the SWP as we've changed and recruited new members.
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Jun 25, 2020 20:04
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Jose posted:in case people aren't aware the people who run bread and roses are dodgy as gently caress. like 2 sex pests and someone who outs trans people dodgy  Exhausting keeping up with all this!
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Jun 25, 2020 20:08
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sebzilla posted:Socialist Campaign Group is meeting tonight (according to Skwawkbox) Looking forward to them announcing they think this was bad and that's it.
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Jun 25, 2020 20:08
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Jose posted:in case people aren't aware the people who run bread and roses are dodgy as gently caress. like 2 sex pests and someone who outs trans people dodgy While these allegations are bad, I've not actually seen any evidence on this yet. And I mean the alternative is being told to shut up and wait for the adults to decide what'll happen, and a lot of the "adults" are people who've been involved in banning people who've tried to bring up Lowtax's lovely domestic abuse stuff in the past. Either way SA seems hosed tbh so I guess I'm just going to continue screaming into the void about how mad I am about Sir Keir Starmer. Won't achieve gently caress all, won't even make me feel better but admitting you're powerless blows forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Jun 25, 2020 |
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Jun 25, 2020 20:10
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It's so grotesquely hot and I'm just flumping around naked and sweatily, and after months of eating crap, barely going out and not exercising during lockdown I basically feel like that gross shut-in vampire from Blade.
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Jun 25, 2020 20:12
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Ronya is good for the thread and I'm glad they post. Jose posted:in case people aren't aware the people who run bread and roses are dodgy as gently caress. like 2 sex pests and someone who outs trans people dodgy
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Jun 25, 2020 20:14
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It was probably a misstep for Starmer to purge RLB instead of just demoting her and asking her to issue an apology (not just a clarification) Demotion would also allow Starmer to slot in a new shadow ed sec regardless... the contention of excessive NEU links doesn't hold up. If she refuses to apologise, then Starmer would have carte blanche to fire her, but not before - these things matter to careerists I don't know. Maybe Starmer wants to all the remaining Corbyn hires to stay far far away from anything in their social media that even mentions I/P, however slightly. You piss off the BoD, Starmer won't protect you, your head just rolls stat - maybe that is the message. But this will always be painful to enforce, even if a particularly senior head is taken first. ronya fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Jun 25, 2020 |
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Jun 25, 2020 20:15
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big scary monsters posted:Ronya is good for the thread and I'm glad they post. Zyla who controls the bnr money was/is big on sending unsolicited nude photos to women. I've seen a pictue of it myself but don't have a copy because I don't really bother saving stuff like that. I thought that forum was dead until yesterday
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Jun 25, 2020 20:16
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Mugsbaloney posted:Genuinely interested, do you find that your understanding of the world has increased after reading them? Some of them, yes. I've said it multiple times before but - apart from a desperate need for a copy-editor - Ronya does actually bring some solid substance to this thread, and people need to stop just piling on without addressing their points.
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