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Android Blues posted:Even outside of mainstream reactions, fandom communities, who would normally be sceptical of media that glorified incest and sexual violence, more or less gave GoT a pass. I think that (completely silly) "well, that's just how things were back then" intuition was doing a lot of legwork. I don't know how much fandom and nerd communities cared about the incest. Everyone seemed grossed out whenever it came up in any discussion I saw, but I'm not going to assume that's universal. However, Game of Thrones' (and ASoIaF before it) were constantly called out for the sexual violence. Every time there was.... ugh a "major rape scene" in the show, plenty of people were disgusted and wrote angry articles, some of which even showed up in mainstream publications. And I'm not saying the "this is how things were back then" was a valid way to justify all the poo poo in GoT, either. Because it's always been a flimsy excuse to justify some disgusting mistogyny, racism, homo/transphobia, etc. whether it's used in Game of Thrones or loving FATAL. People still throw it out there, usually if they're in denial about how trash the thing they're interested in is. The reality is, like Joe Slowboat said, the people who kept watching did it in spite of acknowledging the really unpleasant ways it approaches sex, sexuality, sexual violence, and probably some other boring topics that don't have the word "sex" in them because they were invested in the trash fire, or they just didn't care to critically examine it and were her for Boss Lady and Her Dragons to roast some ice zombies. mycot posted:I agree that Harry Potter being actually aimed at kids is what made it a logical subject of such widespread moral panic (it's always about corrupting the kids!) but I always link it to that quote from the His Dark Materials author lamenting how his series about killing God got overshadowed. His Dark Materials did get a lot less heat, even though it was a more explicitly anti-religion/anti-dogmatism story written by an outspoken atheist, but it also didn't make as much of a splash in the mainstream consciousness. There were some attempts from the Christian right to boycott the movie when it came out, but the movie flopped hard enough to kill the prospects of any sequels and everyone stopped caring. Wrapping this back around to webcomics, we try to find progressive, interesting comics to read here by authors who are sensitive to a lot of progressive topics, but you'll still get places where they stumble, or you'll run into a comic with some uncomfortable implications. I think it's fine to discuss how or why something might be problematic or not. Like, it's not as if 10 people talking about it here is going to derail the success of any modern webcomic anyway. Seeing people reading and analyzing more comics here would be fun, honestly.
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Jun 20, 2020 17:08
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Joe Slowboat posted:I was literally saying that pointing out how GoT the TV series, for example, makes Jaime’s actions towards Cersei much more coercive while still presenting him as the more admirable and relatable of the two is kinda hosed up, isn’t going to stop anyone watching it. Certain changes in presentation made him an aggressor rather than the two of them on a more even footing, which - given that she’s a major antagonist and he’s a fan favorite sadboy by the end - produces some weird dynamics. It’s an unnecessary and unpleasant change from the original. Yeah, this is not a criticism of ASOIAF but GoT specifically - which rewrites Jaime as Cersei's rapist while also giving him a heroic arc. Re: further glorification of incest, the fact that Jon falls in love with (and has sex with) his aunt, and that element of their relationship's never scrutinised, is something the show completely skates over. And yeah, I totally agree with the latter paragraph. Personally I quite liked the majority of GoT, despite its many problems (and "Jaime is a rapist and also a hero" is one of the worst ones) - I wouldn't want it to have been taken off the air. But talking about how it's very comfortable with these things and uses incest as a humanising element is worth discussing. I will say re: ASOIAF, the source material's exactly as bad or worse about using rape as cheap sexploitation, and features a lot more characters jabbering about how they're going to rape each other than the show does. One of Brienne's book battle cries is, "If you want to rape someone, rape me!". Crackerjack writing. To bring it back to webcomics, I think this kind of criticism might have outsized weight there just because audiences are smaller and less mainstream, so a few critical voices who can muster up the support of like, a hundred or so people can actually make a very significant dent in a creator's audience. No input on the moral weight of that, but I think that's why people perceive it as being more impactful in this space.
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Jun 20, 2020 17:49
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Nuns with Guns posted:I don't know how much fandom and nerd communities cared about the incest. Everyone seemed grossed out whenever it came up in any discussion I saw, but I'm not going to assume that's universal. However, Game of Thrones' (and ASoIaF before it) were constantly called out for the sexual violence. Every time there was.... ugh a "major rape scene" in the show, plenty of people were disgusted and wrote angry articles, some of which even showed up in mainstream publications. Tbh I consider hate reads to be outside of regular balanced discussion because of how self-feeding they evolve to be.
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Jun 20, 2020 18:30
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mycot posted:Tbh I consider hate reads to be outside of regular balanced discussion because of how self-feeding they evolve to be. Are you implying I'm talking about hate readings? Because I'm not and I'm not clear how that's related to anything I said. Yes, going into something bracing to make the most uncharitable interpretations of anything gets noxious fast.
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Jun 20, 2020 19:33
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Nuns with Guns posted:Are you implying I'm talking about hate readings? Because I'm not and I'm not clear how that's related to anything I said. Yes, going into something bracing to make the most uncharitable interpretations of anything gets noxious fast. I think that's just bringing it back to Lore Olympus, which is absolutely getting a hate-reading in the Bad Thread.
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Jun 20, 2020 19:49
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Tenebrais posted:I think that's just bringing it back to Lore Olympus, which is absolutely getting a hate-reading in the Bad Thread. Yeah it's just this.
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Jun 20, 2020 19:57
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I agree that the hate read is pretty silly (as they usually are) but I can't find a violin small enough to lament it properly.
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Jun 20, 2020 20:03
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Hate reads tend to get to a weird self-owning place where people are like, "pf, I don't even understand this panel, incompetent much?" while completely misinterpreting some obvious beat or joke. It's like the old Perry Bible Fellowship threads, but with a vein of wanting to be smarter than the (usually pretty dopey) material. Thoughtful criticism's always good though. BSS webcomic deconstruction club sounds like fun!
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Jun 20, 2020 20:09
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Android Blues posted:Hate reads tend to get to a weird self-owning place where people are like, "pf, I don't even understand this panel, incompetent much?" while completely misinterpreting some obvious beat or joke. It's like the old Perry Bible Fellowship threads, but with a vein of wanting to be smarter than the (usually pretty dopey) material. I'd enjoy a 'talking critically about webcomics' thread, since webcomics are such an up and down ride, and it's not good to clog this thread up the way I know I sometimes have, when something like Dumbing of Age comes up again.
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Jun 20, 2020 20:13
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Joe Slowboat posted:I'd enjoy a 'talking critically about webcomics' thread, since webcomics are such an up and down ride, and it's not good to clog this thread up the way I know I sometimes have, when something like Dumbing of Age comes up again. I'd say this is a perfectly good thread for posting critical analysis. Part of liking a medium is figuring out why you don't like the things that you don't.
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Jun 20, 2020 20:17
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i enjoy reading the critical analysis, personally
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Jun 20, 2020 20:26
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the problem with all the hate reading is that it clearly just fills up peoples brains with poo poo that they hate, and know is bad. there were too many people who attached a dominic deegan hose to their brain back in the day, and any time someone even marginally made a joke about it someone would stumble in and go "ARE WE TALKING ABOUT DEEGAN, YOU DONT EVEN KNOW HOW BAD IT GOT" and then explain the entire plot beat for beat. it was truly tragic. critically evaluating stuff is good, but reading something you hate with the same energy and fervor you'd devote to something you like never ends well
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Jun 20, 2020 21:50
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Isn't GRRM sort of notorious for his novels' weird incest themes?
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Jun 20, 2020 22:08
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Tenebrais posted:I'd say this is a perfectly good thread for posting critical analysis. Part of liking a medium is figuring out why you don't like the things that you don't. fun hater posted:i enjoy reading the critical analysis, personally Agreed, and also you can even criticize something you really enjoy. I made a couple of effort posts after just recently being linked to Love Advice from the Great Duke of Hell from here on the past few pages, and even if I was being critical and enjoying some candid discussion, it doesn't mean I or anyone else can't like something and still have questions and opinions. I've done the same before with other comics I enjoy, like say Unsounded, and having some critical thought about something might sound harsh or negative sometimes, and it might come across that way to many people, but in my mind it is more of a compliment then anything else even if it doesn't seem like it. I would much rather put time, effort, and thought into something I like then something I don't, and it's nice to hear from others what their opinion is about something I'm having a good time with. Doesn't mean we cant complain about something dumb now and again though 
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Jun 21, 2020 12:06
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On the topic of critical analysis, now that I've had some more time to think about it, there is something in Lore Olympus that has particularly irked me. It's not the relationship. Spoilers follow about the paparazzi plot point: When Hades decides to secretly take revenge on the offending paparazzo in order to 'intimidate' him (and, I am guessing, to deter others from repeating his 'mistake' against Persephone), he does so by having the guy kidnapped and brought to him by his employees. Hades and Hecate then subject their prisoner to ISIS-grade torture by ripping one of his eyes out (The comic pans away right before the violent act, but later scenes leave no doubt as to what had occured in the meantime). Now, this alone already feels completely out of character for the Hades that's been built up during the entire story as this gentle, lonely soul that just can't seem to make friends because of his position, and the narrative dissonance gets even worse when Persephone finds out about it. She is predictably livid, and scolds Hades into visiting the photographer in his hospital room together with her in order to magically restore his eye. At first, their victim is of course horrified to see them, but when they explain the purpose of their visit, he calms down, and after the procedure is finished, he even begrudgingly thanks them (!!). So the scene is clearly narrated in a way that's suggesting to the viewer 'Oh well, no harm done, after all!', and that struck me as really nasty and emotionally deaf for a comic that dealt with another trigger of lifelong emotional trauma incredibly well. All the terror and unimaginable physical pain that person must have felt at the time, and all the feelings of permanent loss and impossibility of obtaining justice for the injuries caused (Good luck with that against the guy who controls the underworld and all of the banks!) must have already have inflicted mental wounds that will never go away, no matter how well the new eye grows back. That's just never addressed AT ALL. Apparently, different rules apply for bit characters than for main ones? It's just weird, because the author clearly DOES have the gift of empathy for painful situations and the internal processes they cause in the long term. I guess this is the point where I thank you all for listening to my TED talk?
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Jun 22, 2020 00:00
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Today in Monster Pulse... uh oh
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Jun 22, 2020 16:45
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Hey did we lose a different webcomic thread recently? Like in the last few months. I was reading like five or six different comics in it, including kill six billion demons etc. I can't seem to find it now, was it shut down or something for re hosting comics? I'm just confused cuz this thread has been around for 3 years
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Jun 24, 2020 02:17
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I think one old webcomic thread got trashed for re-hosting comics, but I don't know how long ago that was. There's another webcomics thread buried in BYOB.
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Jun 24, 2020 02:42
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Gimmick Account posted:On the topic of critical analysis, now that I've had some more time to think about it, there is something in Lore Olympus that has particularly irked me. It's not the relationship. Spoilers follow about the paparazzi plot point:
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Jun 24, 2020 05:59
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hey girl you up posted:The Hades of myth was generally chill, but real big into retribution and punishment when someone defied him/his laws/death. Other than that, kidnapping Persephone to be his wife was really the only heinous thing that Hades was known for. Also Persephone actually liked him and they were a good married couple unlike literally every single other Greek God couple. Hades even let her leave half the year to be with her mom.
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Jun 24, 2020 06:05
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The revisionist Persephone thing is complicated, iirc, by the fact that a lot of our cultural memory of her abduction comes from Demeter's cult. Which obviously took a very negative view on that whole thing. IIRC the Eulusynian Mysteries held that Kore (Persephone as Young Lady, basically) was always 'of one mind' with her mother, and her misery at being apart was identical to her mother's. So if you want a revisionist reading of Persephone, simply posit that maybe a young woman with a really overbearing mother like Demeter might not, actually, have always been of one mind, and Zeus and Athena and the rest helping arrange the abduction might be read more as pageantry to allow an arranged marriage to come about despite the mother's objections.
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Jun 24, 2020 06:44
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I just find the whole thing pretty easy to swallow with the Greek gods all being weird rear end incestuous hypocritical drama queens.
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Jun 24, 2020 09:11
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YggiDee posted:I think one old webcomic thread got trashed for re-hosting comics, but I don't know how long ago that was. There's another webcomics thread buried in BYOB. Yeah that's the one! Thanks, I must have unbookmarked it and lost it
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Jun 24, 2020 11:09
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Given everything going on right now, is it worth setting up a Discord for this thread / does one already exist? Edit: There is, in the chat thread. Tenebrais fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Jun 24, 2020 |
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Jun 24, 2020 12:43
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Joe Slowboat posted:The revisionist Persephone thing is complicated, iirc, by the fact that a lot of our cultural memory of her abduction comes from Demeter's cult. Which obviously took a very negative view on that whole thing.
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Jun 24, 2020 17:11
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Joe Slowboat posted:The revisionist Persephone thing is complicated, iirc, by the fact that a lot of our cultural memory of her abduction comes from Demeter's cult. Which obviously took a very negative view on that whole thing. In a significant number of the historic myths it was already an arranged marriage. Hades asks Zeus, who is Persephone's father. Zeus says yes. That's marriage for the greeks.
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Jun 24, 2020 21:23
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Yeah, I didn't mean to say that it wasn't 'legitimate' in plenty of versions, just that the focus on the abduction would still make a lot of sense in the context of Demeter's relationship with Persephone as a core theological/thematic concern.
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Jun 25, 2020 00:06
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The comic has existed through literally two decades, but we finally got the title drop for Girl Genius (I know it's not to everyone's taste, and it's not that fast moving, but I feel it's picked up a bit over the past year.)
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Jun 25, 2020 05:09
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Love Advice From The Great Duke of Hell finished its flashback sequence. It seems to answer a bunch of the questions we had last time it came up.
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Jun 26, 2020 21:23
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https://twitter.com/SleeplessDomain/status/1276494413506711558?s=20 cassidy is having what we call in the business "a bad time"
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Jun 27, 2020 03:43
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What happens when both of her split halves get hit at once!
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Jun 27, 2020 04:40
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I doubt it's anything good.
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Jun 27, 2020 05:38
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habeasdorkus posted:What happens when both of her split halves get hit at once! Find out on the next exciting episode of Sleepless Domain! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiHu_wmZT-o&t=17s
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Jun 27, 2020 06:12
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My suspicion at this point is that she'll live, badly scarred, blame Undine for the entire incident and then become an antagonist or she'll die, but live long enough to name drop Undine as the person who caused this to whoever finds her.
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Jun 27, 2020 07:32
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Maybe goops will do...something... if this is meant to be death's door for cassidy. I can't see her leaving the comic so soon and if any point is where we see goops extra powers than just controlling & spawning monsters, I think this is a good opportunity if we dont want to take tessa off the mantle yet.
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Jun 27, 2020 18:30
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Maybe she'll offer Cass a Griffith like offer. That'd be neat. Be her Femto, Cass.
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Jun 27, 2020 20:05
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I'm voting for "it turns out killing both doubles doesn't kill Cass at all and she starts doing even more reckless and suicide-adjacent behaviors."
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Jun 27, 2020 20:19
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Sleepless Domain suddenly takes an abrupt and alienating turn into gory body horror. Mary's kawaii chibi avatar laughs at you all. Dave Cheung claps.
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Jun 27, 2020 21:56
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Rand Brittain posted:I'm voting for "it turns out killing both doubles doesn't kill Cass at all and she starts doing even more reckless and suicide-adjacent behaviors."
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Jun 27, 2020 22:04
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Cup Runneth Over posted:Sleepless Domain suddenly takes an abrupt and alienating turn into gory body horror. Mary's kawaii chibi avatar laughs at you all. Dave Cheung claps.
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Jun 28, 2020 00:50
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