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I've only finished the Dimitri route, and I thought it was pretty clear why Edelgard became a monster. We know that too much interaction with relic weapons or being implanted with a Crest Stone makes you turn into a monster and lose your mind. We know Edelgard's mysterious allies do experiments involving turning people into monsters. And we know Edelgard has an incredibly strong will; Dimitri and other characters comment on this repeatedly. So it makes sense that she could turn into a monster without going crazy. It still doesn't have much buildup, but it makes sense with the information we're given.
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Jun 27, 2020 16:13
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catherine and cyril not having a support despite their whole thing being "muh rhea" is shocking.
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Jun 27, 2020 17:34
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Tired Moritz posted:catherine and cyril not having a support despite their whole thing being "muh rhea" is shocking. The church not having supports with all of each other is rather odd.
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Jun 27, 2020 17:36
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Re CF's ending stuff: I feel like taking down the Siltherers could easily be as emotionally resonant as taking down Rhea. If we just transplant the VW ending to CF we have Edelgard having defeated the source of the crest system confronted in her final battle by avatars of the entire system itself trying to kill her, created entirely because she chose to ignore them in favour of Rhea. But I also think that work could have been done with the Slitherer's switching sides at the climax of the war. Wouldn't it be something if you're about to defeat Rhea and the Slitherers offer her a get out of jail card? And in her utter fury at Edelgard she takes the deal representing her fall into insanity in, I think, a far better way than just deciding to randomly burn Fhirdiad for no tactical advantage. Dunno, this is all probably just dumb fanfiction but what else is Fire Emblem for?
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Jun 27, 2020 18:27
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Feeling dumb. I just got back into this game after a few months, I'm about halfway through a Blue Lions run, and it's after the white heron cup so I have no idea who I made my dancer. How can I check this? I can't find it anywhere in the classes so it seems I might have ranked out of it or something, but I think I remember winning the dance off. Just not with who. None of my units are dead except Dedue (who was I guess killed offscreen in the time skip).
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Jun 27, 2020 20:35
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QuickbreathFinisher posted:Feeling dumb. I just got back into this game after a few months, I'm about halfway through a Blue Lions run, and it's after the white heron cup so I have no idea who I made my dancer. Go through your roster, there's a tab for each person with their classes, the dancer will have it in the Unique section, I think that's what it's called
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Jun 27, 2020 20:48
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eating only apples posted:Go through your roster, there's a tab for each person with their classes, the dancer will have it in the Unique section, I think that's what it's called Thank you! It was my bi girlfriend Dorothea 😈
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Jun 27, 2020 20:50
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Whoever came up with Anna's paralogue should be fired. Even on my second time through it's still a nightmare.
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Jun 27, 2020 22:46
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There's like one map in the base game that has enemy bow knights, and there was a good reason for that
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Jun 27, 2020 23:23
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nrook posted:I've only finished the Dimitri route, and I thought it was pretty clear why Edelgard became a monster. We know that too much interaction with relic weapons or being implanted with a Crest Stone makes you turn into a monster and lose your mind. We know Edelgard's mysterious allies do experiments involving turning people into monsters. And we know Edelgard has an incredibly strong will; Dimitri and other characters comment on this repeatedly. So it makes sense that she could turn into a monster without going crazy.
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Jun 28, 2020 02:55
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To be completely honest, I feel like casting too much criticism on CF is moot because the entire thing was clearly rushed and unfinished and there's a lot more loose ends they would have liked to tie up if time hadn't run out and they had to put down their pencils and ship the game
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Jun 28, 2020 04:17
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In conclusion, route splits are almost always bad for development and thus good storytelling and people should stop viewing them as unambiguously good things.  (This is only slightly a joke, even stuff that's 90% text requires so, so much more time and energy to make route splits for, once you move out of the arena of interactive fiction you really need to start reconsidering any plan that asks for route splits because it will cost way more in one or both of time and money than just doing a single story and you will be forced to decide if and where to make your cuts.)
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Jun 28, 2020 04:25
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Verdant Wind suffered from the division of development time more than any other route. It’s an almost complete reprise of the first route they finished, differentiated mainly by a unique final boss that isn't truly relevant to any of the main characters
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Jun 28, 2020 05:01
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All of Verdant Wind's time, money, and effort was put into the final boss music and it was worth it.
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Jun 28, 2020 05:24
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Wait, really? Last I heard people were way into Verdant Wind and felt like it was the better version of the Church route. also I think it would be tough to argue for VW suffering from split development time over CF when you look at the sheer amount that happens off-screen. It doesn't even get a single cutscene in the viewer
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Jun 28, 2020 05:29
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:Wait, really? Last I heard people were way into Verdant Wind and felt like it was the better version of the Church route. It feels better than Church route, but that’s entirely due to characters. Beat for beat it’s the same maps and overall story as the church (which an interview revealed was the first route that was finished), with very little unique outside of the character reactions.
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Jun 28, 2020 05:42
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Which one is the church route so I don't start it after Golden Deer?
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Jun 28, 2020 05:44
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Shadow225 posted:Which one is the church route so I don't start it after Golden Deer? It’s one of two routes that split from a Black Eagles start.
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Jun 28, 2020 05:46
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Just did the Anette/Gilbert paralogue, why does Baron Dominic call Gilbert "Gustave" at the end of it? And what is the point of the one swordsman in the corner who doesn't attack and drops a spear when you kill him?
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Jun 28, 2020 06:38
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Gustave is Gilbert's real name.
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Jun 28, 2020 06:48
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QuickbreathFinisher posted:Just did the Anette/Gilbert paralogue, why does Baron Dominic call Gilbert "Gustave" at the end of it? And what is the point of the one swordsman in the corner who doesn't attack and drops a spear when you kill him? Gilbert is the name he assumed when he abandoned his family. Gustave is his real name.
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Jun 28, 2020 07:09
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I just don't think they had enough ideas on how to iterate on their setting to make four distinct routes but they sure went ahead and did it anyway. It's not like there's a ton of characters on the Golden Deer or Church path who have tons of unexplored character hooks that don't get followed up on.
Defiance Industries fucked around with this message at 07:32 on Jun 28, 2020 |
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Jun 28, 2020 07:28
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Even if the routes are not wholly unique I think they add a lot to the game. The whole point is that nobody is really good or really bad and every side of the conflict has something going for it and for former friends might become foes and vice versa. That works better in multiple semi-perfect routes than one longer one. It pkays to the interactive strength of video games over other forms of media
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Jun 28, 2020 07:31
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Is New Game+ gonna make things too easy? I wouldn't mind doing it just to save on some busy work, but I don't want to steamroll my 2nd playthrough either.
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Jun 28, 2020 07:45
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Deltasquid posted:Even if the routes are not wholly unique I think they add a lot to the game. The whole point is that nobody is really good or really bad and every side of the conflict has something going for it and for former friends might become foes and vice versa. That works better in multiple semi-perfect routes than one longer one. It pkays to the interactive strength of video games over other forms of media While I acknowledge that that is the one way it improves the story instead of actively impeding it, the way they went about it was wrong on several levels. First: White clouds is not nearly different or engaging enough to justify forcing the player to go through it a minimum of three times. It's busywork, and busywork that a lot of people can't get past for even one route which renders the entire point of having the split moot. Second: Byleth's avatarness. This doesn't seem connected but having the choice of a silent cardboard cutout be what turns the tide feels really bad, narratively, especially when combined with the first and how Edelgard especially views them in non-Bleagles routes. Even a non-silent protagonist would make it a fairly hard sell, but Byleth is particularly poorly suited for it, especially when most of their other choices do nothing but annoy anyone with any knowledge of the dos and don'ts of IF. (Namely, Never Ever give the player a railroaded not-choice; almost every single one of Byleth's choices are of this type.) Third: Too many routes for the budget and team sizes. I, ultimately, do not think Silver Snow adds enough to the game to be its own route (this would by extension cut VW as it currently is, unfortunately, and I suspect a proper VW would be considered far too costly to add to this theoretical given the set up Claude has in White Clouds precludes a lot of asset reuse  ), and making White Cloud's route choice take place later in it would do a lot to alleviate arguments for not wanting to be forced to side with El. The information from Silver Snow/current VW could then be distributed between CF and AM, and the more refined focus would do a great deal to shore up the problems in both CF and AM. It still would for the most part be weaker, but at least the game wouldn't be desperately struggling to hide its seams.Like, adding story splits are not something to be done lightly. Reusing assets only goes so far, you have to make new content eventually, and you need to keep in mind just how much that new content will cost you. If it's just text it's not as bad because text is relatively cheap (we can argue the fairness of this but that is the current reality), but with something like 3H that new content is, like, prerendered cutscenes (that are too costly to edit later so you either have your story nailed down early (lol, not happening at this level of the industry (see: all the old AM remnants in the final game)) or suck it up and awkwardly write around them (Kronya.)), new models, new portraits, new CGs, new voice acting, new maps, new animations... it snowballs very, very quickly, even if each section's contribution is very small. There's a reason I blanket-statement the way I do, you have to be very certain that a route split is worth at least several months of additional labor to your story and I'm not convinced that 3H really needed it; certainly not to this extent.
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Jun 28, 2020 08:56
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Games that are blatantly struggling to hide their seams pwn, snap, rule, own, and cum
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Jun 28, 2020 14:55
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I never want to play a video game that feels like its exactly what the developers wanted ever again in my entire life
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Jun 28, 2020 14:55
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Like Clockwork posted:First: White clouds is not nearly different or engaging enough to justify forcing the player to go through it a minimum of three times. It's busywork, and busywork that a lot of people can't get past for even one route which renders the entire point of having the split moot. Also what are you talking about, white clouds is where the monastery is still interesting every month. Part 2 is when it becomes a chore.
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Jun 28, 2020 16:58
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Yes, I only did AM and while I felt satisfied I had enough questions to google them and spoil myself + restart CF for the mechanical/combat aspects of the game. I honestly feel like I got my money’s worth from one playthrough, and while I admit I found some parts of 3h flawed (Byleth really just didn’t grab me as a character) I was very impressed by the way it was executed even if not perfect. It’s my first Fire Emblem game and impressed me enough to look into buying a 2DS to play the others, and one of the best executions I’ve seen in media to make all characters sympathetic and rounded. White Clouds was definitely the highlight though, I feel like part 2 could have been shorter and more... lethal, plot-wise. There’s some padding and evidently they didn’t quite know how to keep garrech mach interesting, so I would have liked some more oomph and a quicker resolution with maybe more development time spent on unique assets per route
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Jun 28, 2020 17:14
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I will say just remove the monastery post timeskip. Its so vestigial and also very lame to still be running around it post timeskip. Just have part 2 use a camp menu like fe9
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Jun 28, 2020 17:24
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Amppelix posted:While an annoying amount of questions are left unanswered when you do this, i think the game was intended to be a satisfactory experience when played through just once (and most people will definitely have done so.) And it is, if you ask me. The problems with the split aren't really apparent at all if you never play again, and i think that's very intentional. Having played White Clouds 3 times. It's really really not worth repeating 3 times. It was fun with the missions being different on Maddening, but the second Maddening run as the Blue Lions was pretty boring.
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Jun 28, 2020 17:30
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yes, i didn't say anything to the contrary? i was objecting to calling white clouds busywork even on the first playthrough. E: man that camp menu idea is so good. it would also fix the super immersion breaking "now we retreat and wait a month in the monastery to press the attack" situations Amppelix fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Jun 28, 2020 |
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Jun 28, 2020 18:10
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Or even just use the actual compact camp map that they had!
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Jun 28, 2020 18:24
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if the game had worked like that at launch, guarantee you people would have been mad about it main issue with the monastery is that most of the things in it are pointless so you end up doing the same few things over and over again. plus it's dumb that you go back there on every route post time skip. why not have a new area? well, it's obvious why, but still
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Jun 28, 2020 18:29
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Manatee Cannon posted:if the game had worked like that at launch, guarantee you people would have been mad about it I mean, they literally did this for CF and then only use it for one map.
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Jun 28, 2020 19:16
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FoolyCharged posted:I mean, they literally did this for CF and then only use it for one map. It is a very budget bare-bones area though, only saved because it's night when you see it. It kinda makes sense that they didn't want to re-use it.
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Jun 28, 2020 19:41
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It's literally the top of Conand Tower.
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Jun 28, 2020 20:02
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Amppelix posted:While an annoying amount of questions are left unanswered when you do this, i think the game was intended to be a satisfactory experience when played through just once (and most people will definitely have done so.) And it is, if you ask me. The problems with the split aren't really apparent at all if you never play again, and i think that's very intentional. I have heard stories from multiple players who burned out in their first run due to the monastery during White Clouds and have seen people get fed up with it even while pushing forward within that same timeframe. I was not pulling that issue out of my rear end; as-is even in White Clouds the monastery is not well designed to do anything but break pacing and feel like busywork the second the shine wears off. e: You could argue that having it creates a sense of normalcy but if that normalcy is never broken there's not much point to it, and it still goes on for far too long compared to the meat of the game regardless. Like Clockwork fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Jun 28, 2020 |
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Jun 28, 2020 20:22
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Like Clockwork posted:I have heard stories from multiple players who burned out in their first run due to the monastery during White Clouds and have seen people get fed up with it even while pushing forward within that same timeframe. I was not pulling that issue out of my rear end; as-is even in White Clouds the monastery is not well designed to do anything but break pacing and feel like busywork the second the shine wears off. I wonder if there's a previous fire emblem fan / new to the franchise divide here. I loved the monastery and the support scenes and the finagling to get who you want, with the battles being mostly vehicles for the plot and increasing support points. But I'm pretty sure that older fans were the opposite.
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Jun 28, 2020 20:36
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I almost quit the game doing White Clouds because of how incredibly un-Fire Emblem it is and how stupidly busywork it is. It was kind of frustrating that the game gave you a tutorial level and then throws like, an hour or so of monastery fuckery at you instead. I got over it but I still don't care for spending half the game walking around a castle picking which waifu I'm going to have tea/lunch with. The visual novel-esque elements are a key part of what has me not really wanting to replay the game, on top of being very disappointed by my first route being Crimson Flower. It feels kind of punishing for the route to be much shorter and have basically an unfulfilling conclusion like it did.
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Jun 28, 2020 20:45
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