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According to that letter, "the RPG community" votes on Ennies? Does that mean I can vote, even if I'm not on EN World?
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Jun 30, 2020 21:55
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Yeah, the final rankings are based on an open internet poll, with all the problems that you'd expect.
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Jun 30, 2020 22:25
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...huh. Well, I figure SA's TG is part of the RPG community. Maybe we should be voting in the Ennies. Like, a lot. A serious voting campaign. We can really focus our attention and drive on it. I bet there's a surprising number of TG posters and lurkers, maybe a lot more than anyone would have suspected.
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Jun 30, 2020 22:28
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"without full knowledge of everyone from our company" sounds like with full knowledge of someone at the company. That is weird phrasing. Though yet again, Massif exceeds my expectations in every way.
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Jun 30, 2020 22:32
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on second thought, participating in any way is a tacit form of endorsement, and I also don't especially want to grief people who are, without much self-awareness, just innocently trying to cheer on their favorite normal RPG products, so whatever my enthusiasm for voting in that thing is already gone
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Jun 30, 2020 22:34
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e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Jun 30, 2020 22:36
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CitizenKeen posted:"without full knowledge of everyone from our company" sounds like with full knowledge of someone at the company. That is weird phrasing. I dunno how big the company is, but I could certainly see someone submitting to that award without full knowledge of the prior winners. Realistically you'd hope they'd take a look, but it's easy to autopiolt that "oh, gaming award, we're a game and we rule, let's put the name in," plus if you just glanced at the list a module named "Blood in the Chocolate" might not raise red flags. It's not like the name alone lets you know it's racist fetish bait.
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Jun 30, 2020 22:37
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Leperflesh posted:on second thought, participating in any way is a tacit form of endorsement, and I also don't especially want to grief people who are, without much self-awareness, just innocently trying to cheer on their favorite normal RPG products, so whatever my enthusiasm for voting in that thing is already gone I've been to EN World. I've seen the grog. There are no innocents there.
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Jun 30, 2020 23:09
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Ultiville posted:I dunno how big the company is, but I could certainly see someone submitting to that award without full knowledge of the prior winners.
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Jun 30, 2020 23:23
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gradenko_2000 posted:5e wasn't trying to "unify" the various playerbases at all. I maintain that the impulse was still "please come back and stop fighting", but I agree that the invitation was primarily directed at the grognard crowd, particularly the 3.X crowd with sops to the OSR, rather than being directed at every part of the fanbase.
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Jun 30, 2020 23:28
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Tsilkani posted:I've been to EN World. I've seen the grog. There are no innocents there.
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Jun 30, 2020 23:39
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Continuing the Mourning Jim Holloway stuff, I think his greatest masterstroke was the cover art to the three booklets in the original Paranoia boxed set. If you check it out you can see there's three factions involved, and each faction is simultaneously spying on one of the other factions and is unaware that a different faction is also spying on them, so they're all acting on flawed information and are all going to get simultaneously turbofucked. No art piece summed up the game better than that.
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Jun 30, 2020 23:40
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The Ennies themselves are pretty much in the scam category of awards because the submitters have to send actual products to the judges, who often resell them. I believe they cleaned things up a bit but it still seems bad. The voting process is also bad, very easy to rig the voting, and most the industry people don't seem to care too much about them. The Diana Jones Award is the actual real award that's voted on by people in the industry, which also has some controversies like all awards, but is all around much more legitimate than, "Send all of our judges your product and maybe you'll win. We don't actually vote, we just choose a number of games that stand out to us" There's a lot of redundancy too because of stuff like Ken and Robin always entering the podcast category and always winning the gold, every year since they've entered the category. The LoftFP people do tend to pull a vote stuffing campaign, I believe it was pretty much proven at one point, and most definitely run a Bad Puppies style campaign. You also get the edition wars rearing their head too because for a number of years Pathfinder would sweep in the categories they were in and now D&D 5E started doing that too. So yeah, gently caress the Ennies.
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Jun 30, 2020 23:42
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Wait, did Jim Holloway die? I missed that news. drat.
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Jun 30, 2020 23:48
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I'm friends with a few of the judges and some of the people who run it and they seem really perplexed and surprised about this development, fwiw. The Blood in the Chocolate thing was a combination of judge-packing and vote-brigading that they've worked to fix since then. Still, not awesome, and it's still easily manipulated. (with zero evidence, I still retain suspicions about Zweihander's win.) I love Lancer and think the Ennies are not great, but publicly excoriating something you(r company) signed up for tempers my admiration of what was otherwise a stellar call-out. I really wish it wouldn't have been submitted in the first place.
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Jun 30, 2020 23:52
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Do you know what would be a really good way to solve the problem of your award being used to promote a racist and disgusting piece of work like Blood in the Chocolate? Revoke the award. Disavow the product. Do not allow the product to promote itself via your brand. Don't hide behind a mealy-mouthed 'but the users' excuse when it is your company's job to actually vet the poo poo they're promoting via their award, and you've acknowledged that it wasn't, in fact, but the users at all. Even the Hugos figured this out.
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Jul 1, 2020 00:08
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Wasn't there a big thing about that a few years ago? I had a tad too much whiskey tonight and really can't remember. Wait I think it was about Zak and Ennies revocation or something
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Jul 1, 2020 00:19
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Do ennies come with any practical or tangible benefit whatsoever, besides saying you won one?
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Jul 1, 2020 00:25
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Do ennies come with any practical or tangible benefit whatsoever, besides saying you won one? saying you won one is very good marketing
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Jul 1, 2020 00:29
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Do ennies come with any practical or tangible benefit whatsoever, besides saying you won one?
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Jul 1, 2020 00:34
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dwarf74 posted:I'm friends with a few of the judges and some of the people who run it and they seem really perplexed and surprised about this development, fwiw. The Blood in the Chocolate thing was a combination of judge-packing and vote-brigading that they've worked to fix since then. Still, not awesome, and it's still easily manipulated. (with zero evidence, I still retain suspicions about Zweihander's win.) judge packing and vote brigading had been called out at least a year before the ennies 'worked to fix' anything. Probably more. Actually, vote brigading was being called out at least 10 years ago, but at least one year before (and I think two but am not going looking) there was public discussion on the judge packing. Zweihander even being in the list of nominees is wtf given its quality, but it was up against the new Delta Green, Red Markets and Blades in the Dark. Fox having given it away in every bundle going, and with multiple cut price sales at a minimum got to spam those people with exhortation to go vote for his game. That's assuming there wasn't any other dodgyness going on. It wasn't until 2018, 1 year after the blood in chocolate bullshit, and after zweihander's win that the ennies went 'ohh, maybe our systems and processes are poo poo' despite them being called out years beforehand. Sodomy Hussein posted:Do ennies come with any practical or tangible benefit whatsoever, besides saying you won one? Retailers have said it can increase sales. Also recognition matters for a lot of people, and the Diana Jones awards are tiny so there's only the ennies and the Origins awards that do that, and the latter are only voted on by attendees (I think, last time I looked that was the way they worked). PST fucked around with this message at 00:47 on Jul 1, 2020 |
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Jul 1, 2020 00:38
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dwarf74 posted:I'm friends with a few of the judges and some of the people who run it and they seem really perplexed and surprised about this development, fwiw. The Blood in the Chocolate thing was a combination of judge-packing and vote-brigading that they've worked to fix since then. Still, not awesome, and it's still easily manipulated. (with zero evidence, I still retain suspicions about Zweihander's win.) Counterpoint, the Lancer people say they didn't submit it, and they are 1000% justified in telling them to gently caress off with their "We just report the votes tee hee" schick.
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Jul 1, 2020 01:24
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Total power move and creates a situation where their public disavowal and stated reason makes it so every other nominee is now in a position where they can pull out or be remembered as supporting an award show that let BitC happen.
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Jul 1, 2020 01:36
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yea in a relatively small but crowded pool like this being able to say 'we won an AWARD' helps, even if people don't really know what it is just having a line of similar games with one being 'AWARD WINNING' is enough to make a lot of people go 'well obviously we should try this'. It won't rocket you to the moon or anything on its own but every leg up helps.
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Jul 1, 2020 01:37
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Capfalcon posted:Counterpoint, the Lancer people say they didn't submit it, and they are 1000% justified in telling them to gently caress off with their "We just report the votes tee hee" schick. That tweet reads like "someone in the company submitted it without telling everyone else"
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Jul 1, 2020 01:38
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yea it sounds like someone in the team sent it in thinking 'oooh award, awards are good', then they read up on things and went 'woops bad move there we don't want to support this'
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Jul 1, 2020 01:42
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Justin Achilli was responsible for Vampire Revised’s bad centrist take on the sects where “the Camarilla and Sabbat are both bad, but the Cam’s the Hard Men who Make Hard Choices while the Anarchs whine about “rights” and “equality”, so I’m less than sanguine about this.
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Jul 1, 2020 01:54
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sexpig by night posted:yea it sounds like someone in the team sent it in thinking 'oooh award, awards are good', then they read up on things and went 'woops bad move there we don't want to support this' In which case I think Massif’s stance re:continued touting of the game by EN World is still valid.
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Jul 1, 2020 01:55
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So, despite dude's "you're driving people away from D&D without offering alternatives", no one deserves this: https://twitter.com/deathbybadger/status/1277920649055518725?s=19 There is a pretty good breakdown in the thread about how bullshit this is, and further comments elsewhere about how DMs Guild is apparently full of outright porn (for straight males) that's been reported but never dealt with. WotC can't seem to get a break lately! It's like they're lovely or something!
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Jul 1, 2020 01:56
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It's almost like an institution dominated by straight white dude voices will continue to be lovely regardless of what dramatic statements they make.
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Jul 1, 2020 02:33
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CitizenKeen posted:"without full knowledge of everyone from our company" sounds like with full knowledge of someone at the company. That is weird phrasing. sexpig by night posted:yea it sounds like someone in the team sent it in thinking 'oooh award, awards are good', then they read up on things and went 'woops bad move there we don't want to support this' This is exactly what happened, yes. One of the Massif staff posted about it on the discord which means it's not really a big secret I suppose, but what happened is that someone who was not as well versed in the shittier side of the industry and the ENnies tossed off a nomination for Lancer sometime in late 2019 but didn't think anything of mentioning it, then someone else who is much more well versed in this found out when the 2020 ENnies were posted and went "uh hey so about that" and this is the result. So on the one hand yeah, some wires got crossed. On the other hand: Leraika posted:Do you know what would be a really good way to solve the problem of your award being used to promote a racist and disgusting piece of work like Blood in the Chocolate? Revoke the award. Disavow the product. Do not allow the product to promote itself via your brand.
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Jul 1, 2020 03:21
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That Old Tree posted:So, despite dude's "you're driving people away from D&D without offering alternatives", no one deserves this: In a fun nexus of poo poo, guess what product is still up on DM’s Guild
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Jul 1, 2020 04:07
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:The Ennies themselves are pretty much in the scam category of awards because the submitters have to send actual products to the judges, who often resell them. I believe they cleaned things up a bit but it still seems bad. FWIW, the ENnies have accepted electronic submissions for a while now (5-6 years, from what I remember?). I assume they get a lot of PDFs these days.
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Jul 1, 2020 04:18
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Mors Rattus posted:In a fun nexus of poo poo, guess what product is still up on DM’s Guild ....blood in the chocolate?
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Jul 1, 2020 04:24
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Honestly, the ENnies deserve whatever flak they get for continuing to honor that garbage fire of a module. I suppose it's fine that Lancer didn't submit and then withdraw just to draw attention to that, but I'd not think worse of them if they did.
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Jul 1, 2020 04:25
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Kurieg posted:....blood in the chocolate? Why, yes.
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Jul 1, 2020 04:26
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Mors Rattus posted:Why, yes. Wait, in the DMs Guild? I assume it's still on Drive Thru, but isn't DMs guild D&D only?
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Jul 1, 2020 05:12
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LeSquide posted:Wait, in the DMs Guild? I assume it's still on Drive Thru, but isn't DMs guild D&D only? So the DM's Guild is D&D only, and you can only directly access D&D stuff through it if you just use the webstore normally. But because of how it's set up, all titles on any of DriveThruRPG's sites are accessible from all the others, if you follow a direct link.
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Jul 1, 2020 05:58
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https://twitter.com/The_One_Lopez/status/1278088612601454592 Explanation of why it got submitted
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Jul 1, 2020 11:34
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senrath posted:So the DM's Guild is D&D only, and you can only directly access D&D stuff through it if you just use the webstore normally. But because of how it's set up, all titles on any of DriveThruRPG's sites are accessible from all the others, if you follow a direct link. Or check by googling, apparently, which is what I did. That’s weird.
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Jul 1, 2020 12:14
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