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Not So Fast posted:Complaining about one thread in another thread is always the most boring thing to read. If you believe in the strength of your posting go argue with the CCP stans over there. I'm not sure if it's still the case, but I the past disagreeing with tankies over there has been a good way to get a probation or a ban.
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Jul 3, 2020 18:43
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Not So Fast posted:Complaining about one thread in another thread is always the most boring thing to read. If you believe in the strength of your posting go argue with the CCP stans over there.
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Jul 3, 2020 18:59
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Shumagorath posted:https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-suspending-extradition-treaty-hong-kong-over-security-law-1.5636479 Unfortunately at this point I think ruining Hong Kong economically is a moot point. The time to do this was back in September, but now the CCP is all in on absorbing HK. Failing to do so now would result in a massive loss of face and the party would rather have another Great Leap Forward than risk that. Stay safe HK goons
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Jul 3, 2020 19:14
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Warbadger posted:China isn't aspiring to be a racist ethnostate anymore, it's already there as far as the PRC is concerned. I don't think the oppression of Uyghurs is actually "ethnic" per se. Much like the Soviet Union the PRC kinda bills itself as the protector of minority nationalities, and has definitely done things to reify those nationalities and make them more real. The issue I think is that Islam presents a source of authority outside of the CCP, its the same fundamental issue they have with Fulan Gong.
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Jul 3, 2020 19:22
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Vasukhani posted:I don't think the oppression of Uyghurs is actually "ethnic" per se. Much like the Soviet Union the PRC kinda bills itself as the protector of minority nationalities, and has definitely done things to reify those nationalities and make them more real. The issue I think is that Islam presents a source of authority outside of the CCP, its the same fundamental issue they have with Fulan Gong. Yunnan has more muslims than there are in Xinjiang, and they are not being put into camps, thrown into forced labor, or forced into marriages. Not all minorities are treated equally.
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Jul 3, 2020 19:29
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Dont Touch ME posted:Yunnan has more muslims than there are in Xinjiang, and they are not being put into camps, thrown into forced labor, or forced into marriages. Not all minorities are treated equally. Xinjiang is nearly 50% Muslim though, that's the difference.
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Jul 3, 2020 19:44
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Vasukhani posted:I don't think the oppression of Uyghurs is actually "ethnic" per se. Much like the Soviet Union the PRC kinda bills itself as the protector of minority nationalities, and has definitely done things to reify those nationalities and make them more real. The issue I think is that Islam presents a source of authority outside of the CCP, its the same fundamental issue they have with Fulan Gong. On the other hand, the state media is releasing incredibly lovely material w/r/t black people at the moment portraying them as irresponsible and a vector for spreading coronavirus. China certainly has some minority protections in place - which pre-date Xi's Han Chauvinist administration - but that doesn't really mean a lot when you have a million+ people getting thrown into camps, used as slave labor, organ harvested, and getting sterilized for being Uighur. You can't really be a protector of minority nationalities while exterminating at least one of those minorities and running a PR hitjob on a second.
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Jul 3, 2020 19:56
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Vasukhani posted:Xinjiang is nearly 50% Muslim though, that's the difference. And Falun Gong is a majority in any province? Meanwhile Mongolians and Tibetans have their own troubles with persecution in their home provinces. While the CCP has done a good job of elevating minorities in their core regions, the three largest provinces are rife with issues.
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Jul 3, 2020 19:57
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HugeGrossBurrito posted:I dont think Grand Fromage is going to want to IK this thread lol I thought about it but lol I'm like 90% out the door as a mod anyway so taking on more poo poo is dumb.
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Jul 3, 2020 20:00
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Dont Touch ME posted:And Falun Gong is a majority in any province? This is intertwined with the nationality = ethnicity thing. A dissolute and weak minority is not a threat to a Han Chinese nation and is much easier to tolerate. A concentrated and regionally influential minority, though, is a potential threat.
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Jul 3, 2020 20:04
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The Tibetans in Chengdu are a small minority, there are armed police absolutely everywhere in their parts of town but otherwise they're left alone. There are reports of Hui being wrapped up in the anti-Uyghur pogrom, they're not as consistent though. My Hui ex is terrified since her family knows people who have disappeared and keeps asking me if there's a way I can get her family out. She's fortunately been living outside China for quite a while and is safe, but she isn't a citizen or permanent resident where she is so she can't do anything about her parents. E: Hui are the minority that are considered ethnically Chinese but are majority Muslim/have Muslim ancestry, I suppose not everyone knows about em. Not a huge group. Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Jul 3, 2020 |
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Jul 3, 2020 20:13
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my old hui buddy had her room ransacked at 3am by guoanbu once while visiting parents she also worked for the electronic frontier foundation at the time tho so that might have been it
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Jul 3, 2020 20:15
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Warbadger posted:This is intertwined with the nationality = ethnicity thing. A dissolute and weak minority is not a threat to a Han Chinese nation and is much easier to tolerate. A concentrated and regionally influential minority, though, is a potential threat. Or the reason why muslims in Qinghai and Yunnan aren't thrown into camps is because they are Han chinese, or are at least "closer" to being Han than the turkic Uyghers And FWIW "Han" isn't a real ethnicity either. It's a conglomeration of innumerable cultures and ethnicities that have been added to the ranks over time. It's always been about "We must defend against those barbarians at the gates. Will you join us?" If you say yes, then you're Han. If you say no, you're one of of those southland barbarians. Really this is all nonsense though. We all know the real reason for the Uygher genocide is no why
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Jul 3, 2020 20:20
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Dont Touch ME posted:Or the reason why muslims in Qinghai and Yunnan aren't thrown into camps is because they are Han chinese. Well, yeah, the issue isn't that these people are Muslim. They clearly aren't exterminating Islam, though that has been a part of the program targeting the Uighurs and their culture. As for the Han being multiple ethnicities thing - you could say the same about Aryans. Race and ethnicity are really poorly defined things and anyone using them has got to cherrypick a bit to make them work as classifications. It's dumb but it's clear that people are willing to do it anyways. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Jul 3, 2020 |
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Jul 3, 2020 20:31
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Moonshine Rhyme posted:What's it like bootlicking the most evil (by volume of atrocities) government on the planet *lives in a country that temporarily elects an idiot failson for three years* "THIS IS FASCISM DAMMIT I HATE YOU DAD" *china puts uyghurs on trains and carts them off to labor/sterilization camps* "xi is my new daddy"
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Jul 3, 2020 20:32
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Not So Fast posted:Complaining about one thread in another thread is always the most boring thing to read. If you believe in the strength of your posting go argue with the CCP stans over there. this makes no sense, nobody should be expected to debate a tankie no more than they need to debate a nazi, any time when your position is in favor of black-box reeducation camps then the exact details about how you arrive at that position cease to matter this is not something that can be solved with science, data, rhetoric or pulitzer-price winning journalism, their position just needs to be made socially unacceptable so punch them in the streets and ban them from online spaces
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Jul 3, 2020 21:55
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wow found some news, maybe this will convince a tankie that camps can be bad? https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/02/us/china-hair-uyghur-cpb-trnd/index.html quote:A 13-ton shipment of beauty products such as weaves suspected to have been made out of human hair was seized on Wednesday by US Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officers at the Port of New York/Newark.
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Jul 3, 2020 22:06
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Vesi posted:wow found some news, maybe this will convince a tankie that camps can be bad? "Man, there must be a lot of CIA agents flying over to China for haircuts."
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Jul 3, 2020 22:27
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Vesi posted:wow found some news, maybe this will convince a tankie that camps can be bad? https://apnews.com/fff5fc7925f09916bf6b9d5f79bb4132#:~:text=Federal%20authorities%20in%20New%20York,inside%20a%20Chinese%20internment%20camp literally hitler
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Jul 3, 2020 23:29
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[qoute] Wednesday’s shipment was made by Lop County Meixin Hair Product Co. Ltd. In May, a similar detention was placed on Hetian Haolin Hair Accessories Co. Ltd., although those weaves were synthetic, not human, the agency said. [/quote] oh it's unclear if this is just normal run of the mill slave labor or extraordinary extra bad slave labor
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Jul 3, 2020 23:34
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Genocide is bad. Be it physical genocide, or cultural genocide. Being able to black bag, and imprison indefinitely in underground facilities, people for the vague and very easily misinterpreted reasons like "sedition, terrorism, and causing a nuisance" is bad. How is this hard to understand?
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Jul 3, 2020 23:51
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The hair is used for beauty students to practice haircuts, btw. Japan also imports a lot of hair from China for beauty schools. Ugh
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Jul 3, 2020 23:54
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*beaten like a uighur Does anyone want those cumin chilli lamb braids? https://amp.abc.net.au/article/12417176 Kharnifex fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Jul 4, 2020 |
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Jul 4, 2020 00:32
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BrigadierSensible posted:Genocide is bad. Be it physical genocide, or cultural genocide. ...very, I guess? The genocide denial stuff gets me incredibly frustrated. Because people can come in here and claim victory because "this article, picked up by multiple international news agencies, was biased because the dude is religious!! Find another something else, buried under now hundreds of news articles that everyone is talking about, or I win." Like I get that - not wanting to use data because the author publishes in right-wing academic journals. But the data itself, after reading the actual thing (https://jamestown.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Zenz-Internment-Sterilizations-and-IUDs.pdf?x60014, posted in D&D by the C-SPAM mod)...I don't see any problem with it? The idea that you can laugh away "haha, han number going down while xinjiang people going up in 1 graph" like its the loving "oh my god, he admit it" poo poo. They're explaining that effectively Han colonists in Xingjiang are now being classified under a different residency system, 年末总人口, instead of the traditional hukou system. The implantation of IUDs is the bigger issue of the article itself, not just population numbers now. The C-SPAM brigade latched onto the total population numbers, and didn't care about... "Between 2015 and 2018, Xinjiang placed 7.8 times more new IUDs per capita than the national average." "Nationwide, per capita sterilization procedures plummeted after the national family planning reform, which from January 2016 permitted Chinese citizens to have two children (China Brief, February 28). In sharp contrast, sterilizations in Xinjiang surged in 2017 and 2018." "In 2018, Xinjiang sterilized 1.1 percent of all married women of childbearing age. " And its just not cared about! They're targeting these areas in Xinjiang that are Uyghur majority. And they're offering cash payments for people to get IUDs. And its waved away like "well, the canadian reservation schools sterilized first nations groups too." YEAH IT WAS ALSO BAD. I don't see this kind of handwaving away when Israel was sterilizing Ethiopian Jews in the 80s and 90s. but gently caress it, not only is this poo poo not happening, instead its a good thing. Like the Narcissist's prayer but for public policy.
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Jul 4, 2020 00:39
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hong kong liberator would be an epic band name or a huge sextoy
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Jul 4, 2020 00:44
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Vesi posted:this makes no sense, nobody should be expected to debate a tankie no more than they need to debate a nazi, any time when your position is in favor of black-box reeducation camps then the exact details about how you arrive at that position cease to matter If it were "just" black box re-education "throw minority-x into forced education" type stuff this would be horrible, but it falls so far short of what is actually being done. Instead they went whole hog with the rape/torture, sterilization, slave labor, organ harvesting, and weird poo poo like whatever the gently caress the "Pair Up and Become Family" program is just to make it absolutely clear that this isn't about education or punishing extremists. And tankies will still defend it - or just call the victims liars. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 01:35 on Jul 4, 2020 |
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Jul 4, 2020 01:11
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What makes the genocide in Xinjiang so bad is that the CCPs endgame is so that they can trot out a little boy who will smilingly say, (in Mandarin), "My mother named me Mohammed, but I have chosen the new name Xi after our glorious leader because I love China so much. I never want to be like the terrorists in the Hong Kong province, or the devils in the unnamed country." Like this is their publicly stated objective. The "Re-education" camps exist to make them more "han" and less "not-han". The free organs/hair, and cheap labour are bonuses.
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Jul 4, 2020 01:55
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Vesi posted:wow found some news, maybe this will convince a tankie that camps can be bad? https://twitter.com/meghara/status/1278443813653151745 i guess we can read the our own tankie forum cspam, to judge whether this would change their opinion Lightning Knight posted:they clearly do not like CSPAM, or anyone who posts here, and live in a different perceived reality. That's ok, as long as they stay in their "no commies allowed" clubhouse really. Lightning Knight posted:I think that's understating, what China is doing to the Uighur population is very similar to things like the residential schools, which nobody here would defend I would hope ... anybody saying that China is literally Hitler 2.0. and implicitly that the US must Take Action is delusional. only commies live in the correct reality, very logical take from SA mods shovelbum posted:It certainly seems lovely but since I'm from a racist failed state I can't even feel good condemning it much less saying oh we must Do Something. shovelbum posted:Like definitionally only white people can do racism this guy lives in america and read marx all his life, he seems to know whats up
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Jul 4, 2020 01:58
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i'm skeptical of the hair thing being a specifically Uighur aimed atrocity since wigs made from human hair are p normal. more general shadiness and exploitation seems likely tho, but that's just every product produced in PRC
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Jul 4, 2020 02:01
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quote:I think that's understating, what China is doing to the Uighur population is very similar to things like the residential schools, which nobody here would defend I would hope ... anybody saying that China is literally Hitler 2.0. and implicitly that the US must Take Action is delusional. i am not quite sure what is wrong with this. folks foaming at the mouth about "Chinazis" are p off putting and i do hope no one actually wants some sort of violent intervention.
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Jul 4, 2020 02:07
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Violent intervention would be insane for a number of different reasons. Economic intervention has never had a better opportunity. shovelbum posted:Like definitionally only white people can do racism 
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Jul 4, 2020 02:12
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Forced sterilization of Native American women did happen 50 years ago in the US and YES it was an atrocity and SOMEONE SHOULD HAVE INTERVENED IN SOME WAY. And yes black people ARE being targeted by police and a huge chunk the population of various races are protesting to stop it right now. There are toddlers in cages on the border and it is horrific and indefensible and I am donating money to organizations to stop it. AND NONE OF THAT CHANGES that China's lovely authoritarian government is rounding up Uhygars and putting them in concentration camps where they are tortured, abused, raped and sterilized, and having their organs harvested (probably killing them in the process. It also does not change the fact that they are assigning male party members to go live with and rape the wives of the men they arrest for their mere enthicity. It is Nazi style genocide and just because they haven't admitted to digging mass graves yet doesn't mean they haven't or won't. Maybe they'll use bullets and mass graves instead of gas and crematoriums but it is going to be the same result in the end.
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Jul 4, 2020 02:13
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Mr. Fix It posted:i am not quite sure what is wrong with this. folks foaming at the mouth about "Chinazis" are p off putting and i do hope no one actually wants some sort of violent intervention. its a bit of a strawman in itself, i dont think anyone has been calling out for US intervention in this thread, yet past few pages have CSPAM leakers denying massacres ever happened which is pretty ironic for people who are against the term "Chinazis"
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Jul 4, 2020 02:19
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They're just bad people.
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Jul 4, 2020 02:22
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Even if you're narrowly defining racism as the power structure thing, it takes some real galaxy brain to claim that white people control the power structure within China.
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Jul 4, 2020 02:24
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Kill All Cops posted:its a bit of a strawman in itself, i dont think anyone has been calling out for US intervention in this thread, yet past few pages have CSPAM leakers denying massacres ever happened which is pretty ironic for people who are against the term "Chinazis" an armed conflict would be insane. but if we said, say, "any products sold in america made in china must now be made in the phillippines/vietnam/taiwan/  " o baby
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Jul 4, 2020 02:34
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therobit posted:
i guess you 100% believe everything you're writing here and i guess that the worst of what you're alleging could be happening, but i think it just invites tankies posting "[CITATION NEEDED]" and an ensuing argument about the bias of sources and everyone calling everyone else propaganda consuming and spreading stooges. "there are concentration camps and the CCP says as much" should be enough for a reasonable and realistic response to be formulated. economic sanctions aren't entirely non-violent, but China's entry into the WTO and global trade was predicated on the idea that it would liberalize them and make them accountable to world opinion. i think that makes those sanctions fair game. trumpeting about an ongoing "Nazi-style" genocide of the Uighurs without exceptional evidence is reckless and i am sympathetic to those who view it as a presage to military intervention or something similar.
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Jul 4, 2020 02:34
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Grand Fromage posted:Even if you're narrowly defining racism as the power structure thing, it takes some real galaxy brain to claim that white people control the power structure within China. The core of the tankie delusion and IMO one of the elements that is key to understanding how it is just Red Fascism is the idea that people of European descent, ie "white people" are the prime and sole movers of history. Everything that happens can fundamentally be traced back to whites exercising agency on people who have none independent of reacting to the actions of whites. It blends really well with their notions that countries in the Anglosphere, which are unusually cosmopolitan in terms of the ethnic makeup of their populations, are fundamentally "white" countries. This is one of the reasons why they accuse people who criticize the CCP as being racist; because to them, all states are fundamentally ethno-states to be divided on the basis of race. Ironically this is a view of history that coincides most with Nazism, whose core tenants were that the core of a nation-state was fundamentally race, and that the international system was merely an arena for racial conflict.
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Jul 4, 2020 02:40
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Grand Fromage posted:Even if you're narrowly defining racism as the power structure thing, it takes some real galaxy brain to claim that white people control the power structure within China. They get away with it by having different definitions all the way down. The power structures are made by imperialism, which is redefined, on top of other things redefined, etc etc. Which is fine and useful in a conversation where everyone is using Lenin's definition of stuff, or an academic discussion of race in the US. But I don't think people realize that, outside of that, it's not a gotcha. It's just admitting "I am intentionally misunderstanding you so I got something to dunk on you for." Mr. Fix It posted:i guess you 100% believe everything you're writing here and i guess that the worst of what you're alleging could be happening, but i think it just invites tankies posting "[CITATION NEEDED]" and an ensuing argument about the bias of sources and everyone calling everyone else propaganda consuming and spreading stooges. "there are concentration camps and the CCP says as much" should be enough for a reasonable and realistic response to be formulated. economic sanctions aren't entirely non-violent, but China's entry into the WTO and global trade was predicated on the idea that it would liberalize them and make them accountable to world opinion. i think that makes those sanctions fair game. trumpeting about an ongoing "Nazi-style" genocide of the Uighurs without exceptional evidence is reckless and i am sympathetic to those who view it as a presage to military intervention or something similar. For sure, people took the bait in here and it was bad. It's like arguing with a white nationalist when they're trying to get a big reaction out of you so they can paint you a certain way.
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Jul 4, 2020 02:42
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Mr. Fix It posted:i guess you 100% believe everything you're writing here and i guess that the worst of what you're alleging could be happening, but i think it just invites tankies posting "[CITATION NEEDED]" and an ensuing argument about the bias of sources and everyone calling everyone else propaganda consuming and spreading stooges. "there are concentration camps and the CCP says as much" should be enough for a reasonable and realistic response to be formulated. economic sanctions aren't entirely non-violent, but China's entry into the WTO and global trade was predicated on the idea that it would liberalize them and make them accountable to world opinion. i think that makes those sanctions fair game. trumpeting about an ongoing "Nazi-style" genocide of the Uighurs without exceptional evidence is reckless and i am sympathetic to those who view it as a presage to military intervention or something similar. There is no source that tankies will accept. Zenz's research and evidence is very strong, but it doesn't matter because it doesn't conform to the tankie world view. Much like how you'll never convince Nazis that the Holocaust happened despite overwhelming evidence including documentation by the Nazis themselves.
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Jul 4, 2020 02:42
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