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I remember hearing in Latin class that the difference between Romanian and Latin was mostly down to vocabulary not structure. But I was p.poo poo at languages so I don't know if ol' Magister Medicus was "taking the piss" (as the kids say these days).
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Jul 4, 2020 21:50
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The local romance languages before modern nationalism were pretty much a continuum. Someone in southern France would be speaking a language much more similar to someone in northern Italy than northern France
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Jul 4, 2020 21:52
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Arglebargle III posted:aren't Spanish and Italian still mutually intelligible? cheetah7071 posted:The local romance languages before modern nationalism were pretty much a continuum. Someone in southern France would be speaking a language much more similar to someone in northern Italy than northern France Both of these are correct and there a gradients between. A Spanish person with a good language ear will understand Italian by substituting unfamiliar sounds etc, one without a good ear will be flummoxed. But Spanish hasn't been Spanish continuously for 1000 years, just like any other language it has moved and with trade and connections it grows into its neighbors. And yeah before nationalism or even Napoleon there were many regional romance languages (Basque a lonely island), which are all post Roman divergences AFAIK. It's very sad how nationalism or similar ideologies even in very recent years has been trying to squash them instead of highlighting their heritage.They aren't Gaulish remnants themselves but divergences from whatever the empire hoi polloi pig latin was, which probably had Gaulish remnants mixed in.
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Jul 4, 2020 22:13
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If all of Western Europe had been taken over by a single foreign power like India, one standard Romance language would have probably arisen. If you can make Gascon "French" and Sicilian "Italian" then you can figure out a way to standardize the whole bucket.
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Jul 4, 2020 22:55
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Grand Fromage posted:Last I'll post on this derail: you see, white people have longer tongues than Koreans so we can speak English properly and they can't. If you cut the frenulum under the tongue, it lets you speak English better. It's not a common surgery, but it is emblematic of the weird race-linked language beliefs that are quite common. Oh my God dude
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Jul 4, 2020 23:04
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Arglebargle III posted:aren't Spanish and Italian still mutually intelligible? As a native spanish speaker, it's somewhat difficult for me to understand someone speaking Italian but if it's written down I have very little trouble understanding it. I also can understand Brazilian Portuguese due to a combination of similarity and exposure, but continental Portuguese is like some kind of weird cipher that is almost, but not quite, impossible for me to understand.
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Jul 4, 2020 23:08
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Grand Fromage posted:Accent is weird. Some people seem to be able to sound native at any age they learn a language, others can speak a language fluently but just cannot get rid of the accent no matter what they do. It certainly seems like your chances of sounding native are better the younger you are. I'm one of the latter, I am not bad at learning languages but I cannot pronounce them like a native, I do my best but I'm always going to sound like an English speaker. I'm the opposite, my pronunciation is great but I struggle to learn vocabulary, so native speakers of other languages assume I have much more fluency than I do.
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Jul 4, 2020 23:23
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Mwah awsee
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Jul 4, 2020 23:45
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Grand Fromage posted:Fair, and now I'm thinking about the fact that most of my first generation immigrant friends had parents who refused to teach them their native language and enforced English only out of a misguided belief that speaking both languages would make them unable to assimilate/speak English properly. I remember hearing this belief described as a relic of early theories of childhood development. In the USA and probably Europe too, psychologists feared bilingualism would not only negatively effect language skills, but also IQ. I think there is some evidence bilingual kids have somewhat smaller vocabularies than their monolingual peers, but that's only because tons of the words they've learn in their life are in the other language.
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Jul 5, 2020 06:11
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:If all of Western Europe had been taken over by a single foreign power like India, one standard Romance language would have probably arisen. If you can make Gascon "French" and Sicilian "Italian" then you can figure out a way to standardize the whole bucket. France does technically still have at least 4 separate romance languages with native speaking communities in its borders to this day.
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Jul 5, 2020 07:08
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that thing you look at when you think too hard about a word did an article on this
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Jul 5, 2020 08:27
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Lawman 0 posted:Oh my God dude Pretty sure GF is describing their beliefs, not professing his own Don Gato posted:As a native spanish speaker, it's somewhat difficult for me to understand someone speaking Italian but if it's written down I have very little trouble understanding it. I also can understand Brazilian Portuguese due to a combination of similarity and exposure, but continental Portuguese is like some kind of weird cipher that is almost, but not quite, impossible for me to understand. Are you American or European, out of curiosity?
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Jul 5, 2020 09:59
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If only we were as well-educated as a 9th-century teenager. https://twitter.com/johnpauldickson/status/1278997229068406789?s=20
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Jul 5, 2020 10:21
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I feel like a lot of that education would come from the fact that the average 18 year old student probably came from a much richer family than one now, as well as a different focus while he was growing up which would skew the numbers a lot. The average 9th century teenager probably wasn't even literate, after all. Fuschia tude posted:Are you American or European, out of curiosity? American, grew up speaking Mexican Spanish.
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Jul 5, 2020 10:31
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Chamale posted:If only we were as well-educated as a 9th-century teenager. More languages: That guy probably knew Latin, Greek or both, but not living languages. Logic: Depends what you mean by logic but almost certainly had had more formal training on average Music: Assuming they had written music at all, quite plausible Mathematics: Unlikely, I seem to recall that "al-Gebra" was not known to this period, to say nothing of statistics Astronomy: Possibly, but it would have been bullshit The modern day student would have almost certainly travelled more, would be better at a wide range of other skills (even if only in passing), would be immune to a wide range of common diseases, would likely have five or six inches on his peers, and would also be infinitely more numerous than Mr. York. Also he would be aware of the existence of Advantage: Modernity
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Jul 5, 2020 11:01
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Chamale posted:If only we were as well-educated as a 9th-century teenager. In the follow up quotes he qualifies everything so much that his position ends up being "early medieval students knew a lot more than modern students about the stuff that medieval students studied" which is true, but also extremely banal. Neanderthal teenagers knew more than us about flint knapping and plant identification, and in the future space teenangers will know more about the history of the pan-Galactic cyberwar. What twitter trad guy is trying to imply is that the stuff 9h century students learned is better and more useful than what modern students learn, so modern students should study like 9th century ones. But that such a self evidently dumb thing that he doesn't actually dare to defend that position. Mr Enderby fucked around with this message at 12:41 on Jul 5, 2020 |
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Jul 5, 2020 12:36
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https://twitter.com/mikeduncan/status/1279501467972448263?s=19
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Jul 5, 2020 13:14
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Since the Catholic Church is one of the few institutions that has existed since the time of the Roman Empire, how much does the Tridentine Mass (Latin Mass) resemble Roman traditions of worship? If we could go back to pagan Rome, would the worship in the temples look like a Catholic Mass or has the Church gone through so many iterations that it no longer looks like how things would have been done in Roman times? Did the Romans have group worship services? I always feel like popular culture depicts the the worship of any pagan diety as an individual thing and not as a group project, if that makes sense. Modern Latin mass: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teL-UsRSf7w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqkqc2-iteQ
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Jul 5, 2020 13:53
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Chamale posted:If only we were as well-educated as a 9th-century teenager. York didn't have a university back then, and a student from Zabid (Yemen) showing up in York 800 CE would be really strange. Also, it would be time traveler, as the proto-university of Zabid, one of the first university-like institutions founded, was founded around 820 CE. But at least a student from an Islamic university would know a lot more about astronomy then whatever bullshit was running around Europe around that time. Advantage: Islam.
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Jul 5, 2020 14:09
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Nessus posted:Mathematics: Unlikely, I seem to recall that "al-Gebra" was not known to this period, to say nothing of statistics
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Jul 5, 2020 14:38
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Nessus posted:Read more: Probably not, even an indifferent student now is exposed to titanic amounts of written work and would have been exposed to far more books, even if they were things like "Progress and Priorities: the History of Oregon" in 7th grade. Not having Twitter is a pretty huge advantage on the side of the 9th century, they probably were smarter than us.
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Jul 5, 2020 15:56
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PeterCat posted:Since the Catholic Church is one of the few institutions that has existed since the time of the Roman Empire, how much does the Tridentine Mass (Latin Mass) resemble Roman traditions of worship? As you'd expect from the name, the Tridentine mass dates back to the Council of Trent. It was created in the 1570s. So probably not so much.
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Jul 5, 2020 16:02
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Chamale posted:If only we were as well-educated as a 9th-century teenager. There was like 40 students tho
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Jul 5, 2020 16:22
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Epicurius posted:As you'd expect from the name, the Tridentine mass dates back to the Council of Trent. It was created in the 1570s. So probably not so much. True, but that had to be based on an older form, which was based on an older form, etc. From what I have read, it looks like there were many festivals for particular gods, and sacrifices could be made on behalf of a group of people as well as individual sacrifices made, but were there any group participation rituals in ancient Rome?
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Jul 5, 2020 16:25
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Chamale posted:If only we were as well-educated as a 9th-century teenager. Those 18 year olds wouldn't be able to eat chocolate or pizza, take a shot of whiskey, smoke a cigarette, or read the internet while sitting on a flush toilet. Although that last thought does remind me of my favorite artifact from 9th century York: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lloyds_Bank_coprolite
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Jul 5, 2020 16:40
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Fuschia tude posted:Pretty sure GF is describing their beliefs, not professing his own Indeed. I thought the sarcasm came through but, the dangers of text. I do not, for the record, believe languages are linked to race. I have just had a lot of conversations with people who do believe that.
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Jul 5, 2020 16:42
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Grand Fromage posted:Indeed. I thought the sarcasm came through but, the dangers of text. I do not, for the record, believe languages are linked to race. I have just had a lot of conversations with people who do believe that. I was just reacting to it in general
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Jul 5, 2020 16:43
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PeterCat posted:Since the Catholic Church is one of the few institutions that has existed since the time of the Roman Empire, how much does the Tridentine Mass (Latin Mass) resemble Roman traditions of worship? Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy is much closer to how Roman Christians would have worshiped in late antiquity, and it is how Roman Christians worshiped in the Middle Ages. Roman Catholic mass in its present form is a relatively distant descendent of the same liturgical tradition. PeterCat posted:If we could go back to pagan Rome, would the worship in the temples look like a Catholic Mass or has the Church gone through so many iterations that it no longer looks like how things would have been done in Roman times? Traditional Roman religious services did not take place inside temples and bore little resemblance to Christian liturgy. The temple building is where the god lives, but the rituals are done out front, in public where everyone can see. (The Latin word “templum” actually means not specifically the building, but the whole sacred precinct including the space outside where people would gather.) The public did not participate in these religious rites except by bearing witness to them; the activities of prayer and sacrifice were always conducted by priests or other state officials. One could, in some circumstances, enter the temple interior to make one’s own smaller offerings. Most people would also have had a household shrine to offer and pray to the Lares. The communal quality of Christian religious services was not associated with traditional Roman religion, though there were some pan-Mediterranean cults that seem to have had a similar structure — Mithraism for example.
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Jul 5, 2020 16:44
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Lawman 0 posted:I was just reacting to it in general Ah, okay. I am with you then. The surgery is fairly rare thankfully, but the reasoning behind it is not.
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Jul 5, 2020 16:49
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The earliest desciption of a Christian religious ceremony, btw, comes from Justin Martyr, who was executed in 165.quote:On the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.
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Jul 5, 2020 16:58
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https://twitter.com/DigitalMapsAW/status/1279794197705482240?s=09
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Jul 5, 2020 17:50
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euphronius posted:There was like 40 students tho Also, student of where? Even Oxford doesn't go back that far. Monasteries maybe but then you're not even talking about the ancestors of modern universities in the UK (Oxford's founding is fuzzy but even Univ's almost certainly bullshit claims of being founded by Alfred the Great go only so far as 872), which, as you point out, in any case were teaching a much smaller segment of the population.
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Jul 5, 2020 18:04
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skasion posted:Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy is much closer to how Roman Christians would have worshiped in late antiquity, and it is how Roman Christians worshiped in the Middle Ages. Roman Catholic mass in its present form is a relatively distant descendent of the same liturgical tradition. Thanks, this is just what I was wondering about!
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Jul 5, 2020 18:08
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feedmegin posted:Also, student of where? Even Oxford doesn't go back that far. Monasteries maybe but then you're not even talking about the ancestors of modern universities in the UK (Oxford's founding is fuzzy but even Univ's almost certainly bullshit claims of being founded by Alfred the Great go only so far as 872), which, as you point out, in any case were teaching a much smaller segment of the population. I think he's talking about people being educated for the priesthood
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Jul 5, 2020 18:18
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Epicurius posted:The earliest desciption of a Christian religious ceremony, btw, comes from Justin Martyr, who was executed in 165. This reads like the broad strokes of a modern Catholic mass.
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Jul 5, 2020 18:24
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Omnomnomnivore posted:This reads like the broad strokes of a modern Catholic mass. I mean, it is.. The basic structure of Catholic and Orthodox worship services hasn't changed that much since early Christianity, even though a lot of details and rituals have changed.
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Jul 5, 2020 19:21
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:I think he's talking about people being educated for the priesthood Hence why I mentioned monasteries (though this is also what mediaeval universities were for). The concept of a student in 800 just doesn't map onto students now. feedmegin fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Jul 5, 2020 |
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Jul 5, 2020 19:53
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Not ancient history but AI has revolutionized early motion picture. I know you saw it with They Shall Not Grow Old but now the technology is available to enthusiasts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFHJXlrL87k I like the guy at 2:00 who has the presence of mind to strike a pose and smile while everyone else stares. Better restoration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ1OgQL9_Cw Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Jul 5, 2020 |
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Jul 5, 2020 19:55
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feedmegin posted:Also, student of where? Even Oxford doesn't go back that far. Monasteries maybe but then you're not even talking about the ancestors of modern universities in the UK (Oxford's founding is fuzzy but even Univ's almost certainly bullshit claims of being founded by Alfred the Great go only so far as 872), which, as you point out, in any case were teaching a much smaller segment of the population. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Peter%27s_School,_York
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Jul 5, 2020 20:06
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Lovely, but over here at least, 'student' tends to mean someone who goes to a university. This is a school for children. Comparing what 11 year olds were taught back then to what a 19 year old learns at the University of York today seems even more of a stretch!
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Jul 5, 2020 21:06
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