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bobjr posted:I don’t think it helps that Joel and Tommy save Abby and are pretty selfless about it too. The whole idea is to make you hate her.
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Jul 5, 2020 17:13
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Personally, having 15 hours between Joel's murder and Abby's story helped me to empathise with her a lot more. Not because I sided with her or thought she was right, but because we see Ellie fall so far in her pointless revenge quest. I wanted Ellie to fail because what she wanted to achieve was disgusting. That primed me to like Abby a lot more when we got to know her. If we'd gone straight from killing Joel to playing as Abby I would've struggled to like her at all. As it was though I was fighting for her to survive when Ellie was hunting her down in the theatre. stev fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Jul 5, 2020 |
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Jul 5, 2020 17:14
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You know who I really didn't like? Owen. That dude was a piece of poo poo and I'm glad he got stabbed.
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Jul 5, 2020 17:21
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Grem posted:You know who I really didn't like? Owen. That dude was a piece of poo poo and I'm glad he got stabbed. He got shot. Poser.
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Jul 5, 2020 17:23
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Akapursch posted:He got shot. Poser. Oh well the stabbing is the only thing I remember from that scene for obvious reasons.
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Jul 5, 2020 17:26
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Grem posted:You know who I really didn't like? Owen. That dude was a piece of poo poo and I'm glad he got stabbed. I was really thrown off by people liking Owen at all. He’s boring, manipulative, two timing, neglectful, and just an all around shitbird.
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Jul 5, 2020 17:26
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HampHamp posted:Am I seriously discussing how engaging a game was to someone who hasn't actually played it It is a story based game and my problem is with its story and characters, yes.
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Jul 5, 2020 17:34
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bobjr posted:I don’t think it helps that Joel and Tommy save Abby and are pretty selfless about it too. Yeah, this was one of what I think was one of the little inconsistencies in the story. Abby meets Joel by chance and he and Tommy are very clearly decent people who put themselves at risk to help a stranger. We find out later that Abby understands the circumstances of her father's death - that Joel found out just before Ellie was to go under the knife that the procedure was going to kill her, went in to rescue her, and her father got in the way. None of this would mean that you'd expect Abby to not want to avenge herself on Joel. What it does call into question, though, is why she thought he deserved to be savagely beaten to death. And people will say "oh, she had built him up in her mind to be the devil" and "well, there is the matter of the cure" which are both maybe right, but I think the truth is this - that they wanted Joel's death to be horrible in order to evoke a particular reaction from the player. To get even the "well, Joel did gently caress up a lot of people" folk on side. I really don't understand why the flashback to the hospital conversation scene was in the game at all. Not only does Abby's awareness of the content of the situation sort of undermine Abby, but everyone looks like dicks. Dr "we have to slice her brain out RIGHT NOW (yes, the outbreak, while tragic, did save me from a very serious ethics investigation, but I don't see how that's relevant here)" does not cut a sympathetic figure in that scene. The only reason they had to do everything in a rush in TLOU is so that Joel is left in the position of having to decide on Ellie's behalf. That's why it's hurried - if she's allowed to wake up then the big moment at the end doesn't happen. And that's fine, it's, like, something a bit awkward that has to happen in order to have the story that we did. But don't make it into a loving cutscene, you dolts.
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Jul 5, 2020 17:39
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The Tommy/Joel being friendly part doesn't seem too out of character to me, and it actually helps make more sense out of how much of an aggressive monster Tommy turns into by the end of the game. He let his guard down at the wrong time and he's suffering for it.
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Jul 5, 2020 17:45
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HampHamp posted:Am I seriously discussing how engaging a game was to someone who hasn't actually played it Man I don't even know. At a lot of points throughout the unveiling of the game people's brains just broke and it kept happening as it kept going on. I had my own conclusions of things so that kept me from going crazy immediately as things started. I can't remember the full timeline anymore, either the first trailer came out and then they said the game was about hate or it was the reverse. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMW_sycSs30 Hearing that with that footage to back it up I assumed that Jackson either got blown up or someone lead a raid on it and now that Ellie's not powerless she's going after them for killing her friends. Which, yeah, that's fair. A game about revenge motivated by hate, that makes perfect sense to me. For some reason this translated to 'They're making the Normandy Beach scene of Saving Private Ryan into a movie, there's going to be no joy, it'll just be endless suffering with no break' to other people though. And then we got a bad review saying game good and comparing it to a prestigious movie or something- I dunno, I haven't read the book- and the horn was blown to summon all the usual internet super geniuses to point out that there're better stories as if this game getting a 10/10 will lead to it replacing all these good books that're only good for beating down video games for daring to exist as anything more complicated than running from left to right and fighting a boss that jumps and shoots horizontal projectiles. It's been nine years since Dark Souls came out and we're still cursed with people who can only mad libs 'Dark Souls' out for something else. And now we're at the point where the ((female) voice) actors are paying for the crimes that I would've thought the writers and directors would be responsible for just like with Ghostbusters and Captain Marvel, and The Last Jedi and you get the idea. Grem posted:You know who I really didn't like? Owen. That dude was a piece of poo poo and I'm glad he got stabbed. Owen was kinda flat a lot of the game outside of flashbacks for me, but good on him for getting disillusioned with the pointless war and infecting Abby with his sentimentality. Nothing'll turn you on your former friends than getting a gun pointed at you and aggressive insistence that you need to blow the child's brain all over the street. RareAcumen fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Jul 5, 2020 |
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Jul 5, 2020 17:45
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HampHamp posted:Am I seriously discussing how engaging a game was to someone who hasn't actually played it I think playing this game is required to get the full intended effect, particularly in terms of the ego death mechanism when the player is forced to inhabit Abby's persona first hand. You could still play the game and hate it, but you don't get the chance to experience something critical to what makes the game work (imo) if you're just reading a summary or watching a LP. Now, is this game fatally flawed because it suffers from the LP experience? Should every game be like Danganronpa? Who even watches a 30+ hour lp of a game they're convinced they'll hate? 
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Jul 5, 2020 17:55
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Sinten posted:Who even watches a 30+ hour lp of a game they're convinced they'll hate? I watched seasons 4-6 of The Walking Dead so I can kind of relate to this, maybe it's boredom mixed with sunk cost fallacy
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Jul 5, 2020 18:02
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Sinten posted:I think playing this game is required to get the full intended effect, particularly in terms of the ego death mechanism when the player is forced to inhabit Abby's persona first hand. You could still play the game and hate it, but you don't get the chance to experience something critical to what makes the game work (imo) if you're just reading a summary or watching a LP. Now, is this game fatally flawed because it suffers from the LP experience? Should every game be like Danganronpa? Who even watches a 30+ hour lp of a game they're convinced they'll hate? Counter-point, none of what you just said has any effect unless you're the kind of person who projects their ego onto the character they're playing. If you don't, then you aren't "Forced to inhabit Abby's persona" you're just playing a lovely human being in a world of lovely human beings. Going back to point I made loving forever ago. If your reaction to say Joel's death is "gently caress you Abby" and you're invested in it as an emotional storytelling point, you're going to get invested in the game, but if you're playing it and get to that point and instead go "Really Naughty Dog? We're doing this? Alright." Then no, you aren't going to get invested, because the initial instigating didn't hook you the way it was trying to.
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Jul 5, 2020 18:07
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And if you didn't really like Joel and just felt 'well, good riddance to bad rubbish' to that happening, then the entire narrative the game is trying to build just feels completely different and much more futile right from the start.
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Jul 5, 2020 18:08
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Onmi posted:Counter-point, none of what you just said has any effect unless you're the kind of person who projects their ego onto the character they're playing. If you don't, then you aren't "Forced to inhabit Abby's persona" you're just playing a lovely human being in a world of lovely human beings. Going back to point I made loving forever ago. If your reaction to say Joel's death is "gently caress you Abby" and you're invested in it as an emotional storytelling point, you're going to get invested in the game, but if you're playing it and get to that point and instead go "Really Naughty Dog? We're doing this? Alright." Then no, you aren't going to get invested, because the initial instigating didn't hook you the way it was trying to. Yup, this isn't a counter-point, you didn't fully read my post Sinten posted:You could still play the game and hate it, but you don't get the chance to experience something critical to what makes the game work (imo) if you're just reading a summary or watching a LP.
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Jul 5, 2020 18:10
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Sinten posted:Who even watches a 30+ hour lp of a game they're convinced they'll hate? I doubt they are, they're probably skipping through it to get through the whole thing in like 6 hours or so.
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Jul 5, 2020 18:12
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Necrothatcher posted:I doubt they are, they're probably skipping through it to get through the whole thing in like 6 hours or so. This game I’m not playing myself and fast forwarding through really has some glaring pacing issues for some reason.
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Jul 5, 2020 18:13
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Sinten posted:Yup, this isn't a counter-point, you didn't fully read my post Except I did, because that "You didn't get to experience something critical" isn't going to change there's no part of playing it that mind-jacks your ego and consciousness into Abby and makes you her. She is not you, she's a character in a story taking actions. That's also discounting that plenty of people do read LPs or summaries and DO get invested in the characters there, lovely or no, for a variety of reasons, people didn't need to play, for example, Spec Ops, to watch Walkers descent into being a trashbag human being and feel that crushing depressive disgust. I am arguing that the way you consume TLOU2 isn't important, it's not special, what's special is the mindset of the person who is consuming it. There is nothing lost, you only think there is because you had the mindset to consume it.
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Jul 5, 2020 18:14
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Onmi posted:Except I did, because that "You didn't get to experience something critical" isn't going to change there's no part of playing it that mind-jacks your ego and consciousness into Abby and makes you her. She is not you, she's a character in a story taking actions. That's also discounting that plenty of people do read LPs or summaries and DO get invested in the characters there, lovely or no, for a variety of reasons, people didn't need to play, for example, Spec Ops, to watch Walkers descent into being a trashbag human being and feel that crushing depressive disgust. Right, so you're essentially agreeing with me. I'm saying that that's what makes the game work, for me, in my opinion. If the LP or some leaked summary doesn't work for you, you could play it and then it might click, like it did for me. Are you saying the way I experienced the game is invalid? Are you saying I'm wrong for saying that this may not work for everyone, and they may still hate it? Do you read posts you reply to?
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Jul 5, 2020 18:16
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Dewgy posted:This game I’m not playing myself and fast forwarding through really has some glaring pacing issues for some reason. ah, just watch a speedrunner then
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Jul 5, 2020 18:19
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Cardiovorax posted:And if you didn't really like Joel and just felt 'well, good riddance to bad rubbish' to that happening, then the entire narrative the game is trying to build just feels completely different and much more futile right from the start. I was full on ready for Abby to be ok (I was actually ready for her to be a lot more likeable than she turned out to be, but that's fine) and the first section of Abby's bit really grates on your nerves if that's your deal. It's eventually fine but I was "don't make me hate you, game" for about an hour.
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Jul 5, 2020 18:19
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Sinten posted:Right, so you're essentially agreeing with me. I'm saying that that's what makes the game work, for me, in my opinion. If the LP or some leaked summary doesn't work for you, you could play it and then it might click, like it did for me. Are you saying the way I experienced the game is invalid? Are you saying I'm wrong for saying that this may not work for everyone, and they may still hate it? Do you read posts you reply to? I am saying that you're blowing smoke up the games rear end and elevating it to a level above other games when it really isn't. It's story isn't so loving magical that experiencing it first hand is the way to open your third eye and see the truth of the universe. You said it is a 'requirement' I argued it isn't and it is a mindset, you argued that it is critical that you play it, I am saying that you playing it will provide zero benefits over any other form of consuming it. Sinten posted:I think playing this game is required to get the full intended effect, particularly in terms of the ego death mechanism when the player is forced to inhabit Abby's persona first hand. You could still play the game and hate it, but you don't get the chance to experience something critical to what makes the game work (imo) if you're just reading a summary or watching a LP. Now, is this game fatally flawed because it suffers from the LP experience? Should every game be like Danganronpa? Who even watches a 30+ hour lp of a game they're convinced they'll hate? So what I'm saying is that the highlighted is incorrect, In my opinion, nothing about the game makes it more special than any other game. Playing it, watching it, you lose nothing. Unless you start skipping and skimming.
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Jul 5, 2020 18:32
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I'm also of the controversial opinion that you should play a video game before arguing for pages about it.
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Jul 5, 2020 18:34
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Onmi posted:I am saying that you're blowing smoke up the games rear end and elevating it to a level above other games when it really isn't. It's story isn't so loving magical that experiencing it first hand is the way to open your third eye and see the truth of the universe. You said it is a 'requirement' I argued it isn't and it is a mindset, you argued that it is critical that you play it, I am saying that you playing it will provide zero benefits over any other form of consuming it. I mean, if the LP you're watching isn't going for 100% collectibles and documents, you're missing a ton of background and supplemental information about the world and characters, so in that sense you're limited by whoever you're watching. The pacing of the game is heavily influenced by how much you, the player, want to wander around and dig for goodies.
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Jul 5, 2020 18:35
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Necrothatcher posted:I'm also of the controversial opinion that you should play a video game before arguing for pages about it. e: well, about the story, at least.
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Jul 5, 2020 18:38
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Cardiovorax posted:We live in the age of Twitch livestreams. If you watch a guy play a game for 30 hours, I think you get to have as much of an opinion as I do after playing it for the same amount of time. yeah well you don't
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Jul 5, 2020 18:38
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I thought the game was laughably and obviously manipulative in how it tries to get you to like Abby and with how clumsy it is it just made me hate her more. But I also got the opposite message of what they intended from TLOU1 so all the changes to the fireflies and cure feel like clumsy retcons, which also annoy me more than get me into the story.
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Jul 5, 2020 18:45
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Onmi posted:Except I did, because that "You didn't get to experience something critical" isn't going to change there's no part of playing it that mind-jacks your ego and consciousness into Abby and makes you her. She is not you, she's a character in a story taking actions. That's also discounting that plenty of people do read LPs or summaries and DO get invested in the characters there, lovely or no, for a variety of reasons, people didn't need to play, for example, Spec Ops, to watch Walkers descent into being a trashbag human being and feel that crushing depressive disgust. I totally disagree. When you are playing as Abby and trying to progress through the game, you will naturally feel a sense of self preservation as you live and die as the character. Whether you like it or not, you will largely be trying to make sure that she survives, even if you dont like her. That is part of the process that brings you to empathise with the character and it would be a feeling that is totally absent from just watching a LP. Its the same as when when you are crouched behind cover, and someone is about to discover you and you have that momentary rush of adrenaline as you are in those few exposed seconds where someone else might see you and things go to poo poo. Its a fundamental part of the experience.
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Jul 5, 2020 18:46
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Yeah watching someone else struggle to keep Abby or Ellie alive is a fundamentally different experience that hits different parts of your brain than doing it yourself. Edit: stumbled over my point lmao Bust Rodd fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Jul 5, 2020 |
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Jul 5, 2020 18:48
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Eimi posted:I thought the game was laughably and obviously manipulative in how it tries to get you to like Abby and with how clumsy it is it just made me hate her more. But I also got the opposite message of what they intended from TLOU1 so all the changes to the fireflies and cure feel like clumsy retcons, which also annoy me more than get me into the story. What were the retcons? Necrothatcher posted:yeah well you don't Can't understand Death Stranding's story until you've personally delivered a pizza to the other side of that ravine.
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Jul 5, 2020 18:48
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I don't know, that seems like it's reaching a little? People get super invested in the survival of characters they just watch in a movie or read about all the time. Playing as the character certainly makes that more intense, but saying that you don't get that unless you play a game yourself seems like it isn't really true.
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Jul 5, 2020 18:48
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Perfectly Safe posted:Can't understand Death Stranding's story until you've personally delivered a pizza to the other side of that ravine. .... I mean... yeah? it's probably more true in Death Stranding's case than it is for TLOU2.
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Jul 5, 2020 18:51
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Cardiovorax posted:I don't know, that seems like it's reaching a little? People get super invested in the survival of characters they just watch in a movie or read about all the time. Playing as the character certainly makes that more intense, but saying that you don't get that unless you play a game yourself seems like it isn't really true. But the level of intensity in that feeling is the entire point, Its so so much more than other types of medium. I am not saying you cant achieve that with a book or a TV show, it just takes significantly more time and effort. Even then though I would argue that its still not as strong a feeling as it would be in a game like this where you are likely to spend a lot of time worrying for your survival.
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Jul 5, 2020 18:55
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I mean, I would get saying that you won't understand how weirdly engrossing Death Stranding is to play even though it's basically just an endless series of fetchquest unless you've done it for yourself, but saying that you literally can't understand the story unless you personally held the controller? That's kinda crazy.FiftySeven posted:But the level of intensity in that feeling is the entire point, Its so so much more than other types of medium. I am not saying you cant achieve that with a book or a TV show, it just takes significantly more time and effort. Even then though I would argue that its still not as strong a feeling as it would be in a game like this where you are likely to spend a lot of time worrying for your survival.
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Jul 5, 2020 18:55
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Cardiovorax posted:I don't know, that seems like it's reaching a little? People get super invested in the survival of characters they just watch in a movie or read about all the time. Playing as the character certainly makes that more intense, but saying that you don't get that unless you play a game yourself seems like it isn't really true. I guess we'll never know; you can't do both with any given game. I can certainly understand that you can't really understand MarioKart if you've never actually played it. Not so sure with a game that's predominantly "the story". Interestingly, if you look at a game like Dark Souls, you've got the people who just play it and barely have any idea of what's going on, and you've got people who pore over the item descriptions in order to piece together the lore. Don't really think it's relevant, but it's a game in which you have to stop playing to have much of an idea what's going on.
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Jul 5, 2020 18:57
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Cardiovorax posted:I mean, I would get saying that you won't understand how weirdly engrossing Death Stranding is to play even though it's basically just an endless series of fetchquest unless you've done it for yourself, but saying that you literally can't understand the story unless you personally held the controller? That's kinda crazy. No one is saying that, but if you think watching a game being played is gonna have the same impact as playing it yourself then yeah i think we're on completely different pages.
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Jul 5, 2020 18:58
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Necrothatcher posted:.... I mean... yeah? Can you give an example of something that you'd not be able to understand in Death Stranding's story as a result of only having watched it being played? This is a genuine question - I've not played Death Stranding, I just watched a playthrough.
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Jul 5, 2020 18:59
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Cardiovorax posted:I mean, I would get saying that you won't understand how weirdly engrossing Death Stranding is to play even though it's basically just an endless series of fetchquest unless you've done it for yourself, but saying that you literally can't understand the story unless you personally held the controller? That's kinda crazy. Video games stories are designed around interactivity and developers use gameplay to communicate important aspects of their narrative, emotional heft and mood. I mean, you can just watch someone play and get an idea of the game, just the same as you could watch someone get sweaty and tired running a marathon and empathise with them, but you won't really get it. e: Perfectly Safe posted:Can you give an example of something that you'd not be able to understand in Death Stranding's story as a result of only having watched it being played? This is a genuine question - I've not played Death Stranding, I just watched a playthrough. A big part of Death Stranding's ambience and mood is isolation from humanity and being alone (save for BB) in vast scenery and forging through it. Much of the impact of the game comes from forming connections with other players. Watching someone else do it means you're no longer isolated and removes any feeling of communal participation in building infrastructure. Which is the point of the game. Necrothatcher fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Jul 5, 2020 |
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Jul 5, 2020 19:00
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HampHamp posted:No one is saying that, but if you think watching a game being played is gonna have the same impact as playing it yourself then yeah i think we're on completely different pages. Necrothatcher posted:Watching someone else do it means you're no longer isolated and removes any feeling of communal participation. Which is the point of the game.
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Jul 5, 2020 19:04
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Cardiovorax posted:I find livestreams very communal experiences. You're literally talking to someone as they play. And that's antithetical to what Death Stranding should be. It's largely a game about silence and introspection. e: honestly Death Stranding is one of the worst examples you could have picked for this. there are lots of games I could imagine just watching and getting a decent experience from, like the FF7 Remake. Necrothatcher fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Jul 5, 2020 |
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Jul 5, 2020 19:06
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