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Marmaduke! posted:If anyone ever doubts that "slippery slope" is a real thing in politics, tuition fees are the number 1 go-to example. I don't know how many years they were free, but the time it took them to snowball from 1k to 3k to 9k was incredible. There's probably people out there who believed they'd go to 1k and then rise only slightly over the years, and those people probably also believed in the £350 million a week for Brexit. Yeah, the slippery slope is not always a fallacy. Get the wedge in, make the hole, then "oh no, it had to grow, how unfortunate". This is why I say that the difference between a £0 and a £5 "co-pay" (shudder) to see the GP is far greater than between a £5 and a £25. E: have a catte  Bobstar fucked around with this message at 11:25 on Jul 7, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 11:21
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Bobstar posted:Haha yeah sure, "Margaret Atwood" JK was a victim of domestic violence though so her opinions on trans people carry more weight, that's how it works  Being JK Rowling makes your opinion worth at least 235 or so other women's opinions
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Jul 7, 2020 11:26
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Bobstar posted:Yeah, the slippery slope is not always a fallacy. Get the wedge in, make the hole, then "oh no, it had to grow, how unfortunate". Especially with universities when funding was cut at the same time, which meant that universities felt financially forced to charge £9,000 rather than £6,000.
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Jul 7, 2020 11:30
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Bobstar posted:
I posit that that is not a real catte. No self-respecting real catte would be sleeping in a specially bought sleeping place but would, instead, be perched upon your laptop or on the seat of your favourite chair.
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Jul 7, 2020 11:36
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Jedit posted:We're in agreement on the important points, I think. The Question IRL posted:Can't discount the possibility he was drawing loli hentai.  It's weird though, because "making an indecent photograph of a child" used to be the far more serious charge, like if someone paid me money to develop a roll of film and 'keep it quiet' and I noticed that the roll of film contained child abuse and yet continued to develop it and enlarge the prints, put them in a nice envelope, in a manner that shows conspiracy to increase the amount of indecent photographs of children in the world. Now the CPS appears to define it in a way far looser than simple possession: CPS posted:Prosecutors must bear in mind what needs to be proved in respect of possession of the images. Much will depend on (a) the location of the images on the device (b) how they came to be located there and (c) how accessible/viewable they are in that location without specialist knowledge or software. By way of example: So it seems to now be the less serious form of possession, like you knowingly clicked a link on 8chan but then deleted it, rather than the original meaning that positions it as something for people who will devote an entire evening of chemistry to making more child abuse material.
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Jul 7, 2020 11:38
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forkboy84 posted:If you're a 40-something chasing after 17 year olds you're a nonce who is very careful to not break the law. It's skeevy as gently caress and it doesn't stop being skeevy just because it's legal. If you'd nonce a 17yo, you'd nonce a 14yo. I however, would simply do neither
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Jul 7, 2020 11:38
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Guavanaut posted:Love that our excellently worded laws and very good professional journalism means that it's impossible to tell if this was "downloaded a photo that someone thought was sexually suggestive and of a minor" or "actually took sexual photos of children with a camera." Works better when the accused is an artist. Rolf Harris being sent down for "creating indecent images" was darkly amusing.
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Jul 7, 2020 11:39
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https://twitter.com/Camclaret1Calum/status/1280208919088988160?s=20 Just Alistair Campbell's failson spouting the Cultural Marxism line as if it's not a horrendously anti-semitic trope.
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Jul 7, 2020 11:43
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sebzilla posted:Works better when the accused is an artist. Rolf Harris being sent down for "creating indecent images" was darkly amusing. 
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Jul 7, 2020 11:48
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forkboy84 posted:
https://twitter.com/shirleymush/status/1280101018068496385?s=20
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Jul 7, 2020 11:50
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:I posit that that is not a real catte. No self-respecting real catte would be sleeping in a specially bought sleeping place but would, instead, be perched upon your laptop or on the seat of your favourite chair. They do that too. But we cheated and bought exact replicas of the sleeping places and toys they had in the foster home.
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Jul 7, 2020 11:53
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jesus https://twitter.com/MartinSLewis/status/1280447409080983553?s=20
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Jul 7, 2020 12:10
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Jose posted:Not all authors are completely shite about trans rights https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1280226944638955521?s=20 Was pleasantly surprised to see this from noted fox bludgeoner Jolyon Maugham, maybe peoples attitudes are changing thanks to how awful JK is 
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Jul 7, 2020 12:18
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vodkat posted:Was pleasantly surprised to see this from noted fox bludgeoner Jolyon Maugham, maybe peoples attitudes are changing thanks to how awful JK is LGBT+ rights do seem to be something that even the meltiest of melts can manage to have a decent opinion on sometimes. i mean iirc the lib dems have often been the best of the three main parties for this sort of thing, policy-wise
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Jul 7, 2020 12:29
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Angepain posted:LGBT+ rights do seem to be something that even the meltiest of melts can manage to have a decent opinion on sometimes. i mean iirc the lib dems have often been the best of the three main parties for this sort of thing, policy-wise well they did have a bunch of people quit after letting phillip lee join the party
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Jul 7, 2020 12:39
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Don't worry everyone, Chuka is here to save us from Capitalism by joining a  ESG = Environmental and Social Governance, dontcha know. E: Oh I see, they're PR dickheads. Eh, better than facebook I guess. quote:Edelman is a global communications firm that partners with businesses and organizations to evolve, promote and protect their brands and reputations. RockyB fucked around with this message at 12:51 on Jul 7, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 12:40
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vodkat posted:https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1280226944638955521?s=20 One of the most painful aspects of Labours newfound cowardice around trans rights is that there's a slim public majority supporting a lot of it, and a lot of terf-curious older people I've met don't really care about anything but shelters. So shelters and therapists for victims of abuse were specifically excluded those from self-id protection in the GRC anyway, and now it's just a refusal to confront a very loud minority of bigots. Any left of pinochet group will run out of allies well before the evangelicals run out of culture war money.
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Jul 7, 2020 12:44
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https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/1280073614302339072?s=21
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Jul 7, 2020 12:46
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So am I missing something in the Handmaid's Tale or do the terf crowd think that the religious fundamentalist fascists would be pro-trans rights?
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Jul 7, 2020 12:46
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"taken a step back from politics after switching parties" is definitely a polite way of phrasing umunna's career trajectory. why no, i did not cut off my own testicles, I am merely taking a step back from fertility after giving naked sword juggling a try also after clicking through that Joylon tweet I have not only made the discovery that Helen Lewis wrote a piece for the Atlantic about how unreasonable millennials these days are for Cancelling JK Rowling, I also made the mistake of reading it, so that's my day ruined.
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Jul 7, 2020 12:47
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Angepain posted:i mean iirc the lib dems have often been the best of the three main parties for this sort of thing, policy-wise  Marmaduke! posted:So am I missing something in the Handmaid's Tale or do the terf crowd think that the religious fundamentalist fascists would be pro-trans rights?
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Jul 7, 2020 12:49
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forkboy84 posted:https://twitter.com/Camclaret1Calum/status/1280208919088988160?s=20 Submitted a complaint to the party, including a screenshot of the tweet. Spangly A posted:One of the most painful aspects of Labours newfound cowardice around trans rights is that there's a slim public majority supporting a lot of it, and a lot of terf-curious older people I've met don't really care about anything but shelters. So shelters and therapists for victims of abuse were specifically excluded those from self-id protection in the GRC anyway, and now it's just a refusal to confront a very loud minority of bigots. I started a fight in our CLP whatsapp group by calling JKR the replacement Glinner and 100% transphobic when someone posted one of her threads last week. Having to avoid the temptation to bring it back up again now ... SpaceCommie fucked around with this message at 12:55 on Jul 7, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 12:52
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Marmaduke! posted:So am I missing something in the Handmaid's Tale or do the terf crowd think that the religious fundamentalist fascists would be pro-trans rights? the actual-feminist terf crowd have been open allies with religious fundamentalist fascists for some time. I think it was Greer who said she was invited to an evangelical conference and really hit it off with a lot of them. Biological fundamentalism is incredibly compatable with fascism and beyond that they seem really good at dealing with cognitive dissonance, like how women's rights campaigner Glinner keeps calling any woman who disagrees with him a oval office. Angepain posted:LGBT+ rights do seem to be something that even the meltiest of melts can manage to have a decent opinion on sometimes. i mean iirc the lib dems have often been the best of the three main parties for this sort of thing, policy-wise looking over lgbt history it does seem to mirror the experiences of other persecuted minorities, where most people just don't care enough to be vocally against their existence until the state starts going on about faith and family so you get various moments in history where lgbt people are allowed to openly exist and then reactionaries appear and start burning all the libraries SpaceCommie posted:I started a fight in our CLP whatsapp group by calling JKR the replacement Glinner and 100% transphobic when someone posted one of her threads last week. during the leadership election absolutely nobody in the clp had anything prepared for Dawn Butler, so I went up to speak for her nomination on the grounds that she was the only person who had been consistently in favour of trans rights. It got brought up to me quite a bit afterwards, and I was fairly surprised that the majority of it was unqualified positivity, with a few questions specifically about the shelter/therapy angles. Honestly the only time I heard anyone really push against it was a week before that in a pub discussing leadership candidates, an older white guy was pushing hard for Starmer and when I kept digging he came out with "the public don't like trans people as much as you do". I'm sure he's pretty happy rn. Spangly A fucked around with this message at 13:04 on Jul 7, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 12:53
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Marmaduke! posted:So am I missing something in the Handmaid's Tale or do the terf crowd think that the religious fundamentalist fascists would be pro-trans rights? 'THT is about womens' rights therefore, the person who wrote it couldn't be pro trans rights, because trans women are not women' Is the extent of the "logic" apparently. Maya Forstater showed up in the comments to the Atwood tweet. Good lord this is exhausting. Twitter was, as ever, a huge mistake.
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Jul 7, 2020 12:58
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SpaceCommie posted:Submitted a complaint to the party, including a screenshot of the tweet. nothing in that tweet is left wing though...?
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Jul 7, 2020 12:59
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Spangly A posted:One of the most painful aspects of Labours newfound cowardice around trans rights is that there's a slim public majority supporting a lot of it, and a lot of terf-curious older people I've met don't really care about anything but shelters. So shelters and therapists for victims of abuse were specifically excluded those from self-id protection in the GRC anyway, and now it's just a refusal to confront a very loud minority of bigots. the pact between second wave feminists and evangelicals in the war on pornography didn't lead to any lasting relationship or success, though. Ultimately, fair weather friends. Page Three died to the Internet, not Whitehouseism, realistically speaking. re: shelters. True - we see Scotland going that way. But as I remarked previously, if the exclusions now apparently acceptable in Scotland were always intended to be on the table, then much of the messaging has been horribly managed and it was never a good idea to making prisons and shelters the focal point of lobbying (see e.g. #4 in the ten points in the 2017 Stonewall campaign). Self-id as a political principle first, then judicial campaigns to extend it to more contentious spheres, would have been the way to go. (It's hard to blame Stonewall &c for living in a bubble and not realizing the depth of objections, though, given that the actually existing Cameron government didn't sense anything stirring in the depths either. Still, now that the backlash is in full swing, the damage has already been done)
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Jul 7, 2020 13:00
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Marmaduke! posted:So am I missing something in the Handmaid's Tale or do the terf crowd think that the religious fundamentalist fascists would be pro-trans rights? The specific kind of oppression that Gilead delivers to women, that the book spends most of its time going into, would probably be delivered based on assigned gender at birth, thus remaining consistent with the terf view that oppression against "biological" "sex" is the only one that matters. The book doesn't go into it, but I assume terfs imagine that trans women would be able to live as men, and that this would be perfectly fine for all concerned with absolutely no problems of a) the trans person having to deal with living as the wrong gender b) the society allowing a person with Bad Gender Thoughts to even exist, because they have no idea what being trans is and think we're all making it up.
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Jul 7, 2020 13:03
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Did anyone read the recent sequel to THT? If so, did it mention trans issues at all? I know the original dealt pretty heavily with non-het sexuality, and much more so in the series.
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Jul 7, 2020 13:07
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Communist Thoughts posted:nothing in that tweet is left wing though...? What? But the papers have been telling me that New Labour were left wing and that Corbynites were just TOO far left! Are you trying to tell me that neoliberals are actually right wing?!
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Jul 7, 2020 13:14
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ronya posted:
I assure you many of the trans people I know are not exactly fans of Stonewall the organisation, who themselves have always been a bit funny about stonewall the historical event. ronya posted:re: shelters. True - we see Scotland going that way. But as I remarked previously, if the exclusions now apparently acceptable in Scotland were always intended to be on the table, then much of the messaging has been horribly managed and it was never a good idea to making prisons and shelters the focal point of lobbying (see e.g. #4 in the ten points in the 2017 Stonewall campaign). Self-id as a political principle first, then judicial campaigns to extend it to more contentious spheres, would have been the way to go. On this you're right, but I think the centring of shelters definitely came from the transphobes and was met by a total lack of political agility. I am honestly not sure how hard the push will be on shelter and therapy exclusions tbh. Intersectionality is pretty reliant on Standpointism and I've never tried to push back on those when I've spoken to other people about trans issues. I can't easily justify it, but then I'm not trans or a woman in a refuge so I'm far more comfortable talking about discriminations and HR offences I've seen myself, like the various health and social care access problems.
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Jul 7, 2020 13:16
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Looking forward to some sweet government handouts being announced tomorrow ngl
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Jul 7, 2020 13:57
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sebzilla posted:Looking forward to some sweet government handouts being announced tomorrow ngl Please accept this packet of Tim Tams for your household.
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Jul 7, 2020 13:59
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There's probably a parallel dimension where the Obama admin does not by coincidence ignite a bathroom bill war in 2016 and UK NGOs do not therefore mindlessly broadcast it in the UK where the situation is different (specifically, where the UK must pass such a civil rights claim by statute rather than by interpreting it in jurisprudence - and, critically, those claims had not been passed yet). Gender-neutral NHS wards were unfortunately also convenient in a time of austerity-driven penny-pinching... The choice to highlight schools, prisons, and shelters as the relevant public-sector institutions for self-ID to be implemented was very much lobby group strategy; I struggle to say it was on transphobes. The Tara Hudson campaign in 2015 would've suggested good odds for such a focus - there was no furious feminist backlash to the idea of transferring a trans woman to a women's prison. David Cameron was trying to pitch compassionate conservatism to a Tory party that didn't actually expect to rule without coalition and was eager to embrace any quick wins. It kind of made sense. Then the terrain changed and, well, I think you're right about the (in)agility, even if not the parties involved. It's not as if the Tories moved to run against GRA reform in 2019 - there was just awkward silence precisely because there's indeed the slim majority supporting the core claims - but not a lot of enthusiasm about hammering it down to all the hard cases (that make bad law, as they say).
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Jul 7, 2020 14:06
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sebzilla posted:Looking forward to some sweet government handouts being announced tomorrow ngl See if he doesn't give me £250 minimum to spend on a new SSD & about as much vinyl as I can carry home on the bus, I'll riot. Okay, no I won't. I'll be mad though. Cunts got my hopes up for free munee I'd be so good at single handedly saving the record industry if only I had disposable income. Probably now I'm excited by the idea it'll come with so many caveats like I can only spend it in loving Wetherspoons or on a Dyson. forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 14:11 on Jul 7, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 14:08
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As a committed scrounger I am hoping to spend my government money on a large plasma television
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Jul 7, 2020 14:11
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Looking forward to the £0 he will announce tomorrow.
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Jul 7, 2020 14:16
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we're still waiting for the £50 cycle vouchers they promised 2 months ago, so I wouldn't get too excited for your shopping list yet
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Jul 7, 2020 14:16
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ronya posted:There's probably a parallel dimension where the Obama admin does not by coincidence ignite a bathroom bill war in 2016 and UK NGOs do not therefore mindlessly broadcast it in the UK where the situation is different (specifically, where the UK must pass such a civil rights claim by statute rather than by interpreting it in jurisprudence - and, critically, those claims had not been passed yet). Were prisons actually excluded? I honestly don't see why that's a particular issue tbh. Can't imagine why Obama faced such right-wing backlash about bathrooms. No relevant US history there, I'm sure. I'm reminded of what you said about statues wrt the majority who can be classified as "don't really care" and any loud minority objections who care very much. Unfortunately on self-ID, there are minorities who care very much on both sides - but only one of them faces any actual harm in any circumstance, and that harm is specific to the status quo. I think Glinner and Rowling are examples of the public reaction to anti-trans-rights activists who can't get over reality, and I think their disgrace presented a fantastic window for Starmer to dip his toe into something vaguely controversial. So again, it's disappointing to say the least.
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Jul 7, 2020 14:17
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crispix posted:As a committed scrounger I am hoping to spend my government money on a large plasma television unironically what they want you to do - pay your rent? nah, pay off debt, hell no! go buy yourself some products and a meal out! THE GOVERNMENT DEMANDS IT! (though I doubt they will give any money out.)
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Jul 7, 2020 14:18
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Seems like they might cut stamp duty at least (not that helps 95% of people)
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