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I was unaware of Meinberg's identity and I apologize for the disruption.
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Jul 8, 2020 07:11
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Nessus posted:I would like to lead by formally and explicitly acknowledging that you are my moral superior. 
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Jul 8, 2020 07:11
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Paizo is not much better than WotC I wouldnt be surprised if WotC threw in a "no making GBS threads on Mearls"/non-compete clause when the Exandria book got published
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Jul 8, 2020 07:47
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Nah, Nessus actually makes plenty of good points whether their tone was meant to be sarcastic or not. We're still an industry thread, right? As a whole CR could probably shrug off any hit to their fanbase ditching 5E would do, I imagine most people don't watch for the actual rules. But the players themselves are probably used to having some crunch to the game they're playing, at least for their main campaign. Nothing like any PBtA game is probably going to suffice for that. That only really leaves a few mainstream options. Pathfinder comes with its own baggage, 13th Age had some of its own but if I recall right the questionable part was cut off (or maybe not it was last year). I've never heard any grumbling about Rob Schwalb but something tells me Shadow of the Demon Lord would be a hard sell, Shadow of the Mad Wizard maybe but that's not even going to be out until next year at the least.
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Jul 8, 2020 07:50
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admanb posted:Jumping ship from WotC to Paizo because of Mike Mearls would be funny but extremely stupid given... Paizo. MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 12:48 on Jul 8, 2020 |
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Jul 8, 2020 12:42
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Didn't Paizo have an actual "children chained to evil emperor" thing and an actual child sexual assault demon? I think I remember this thread talking about it.
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Jul 8, 2020 13:20
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Josef bugman posted:Didn't Paizo have an actual "children chained to evil emperor" thing That was D&D, he was a villain from the Book of Vile Darkness. He had a unique magic item that would kill the kids if you did physical damage to him, and he did it so he'd be edgy.
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Jul 8, 2020 13:24
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Mystic Mongol posted:That was D&D, he was a villain from the Book of Vile Darkness. He had a unique magic item that would kill the kids if you did physical damage to him, and he did it so he'd be edgy. Ahhh, I do apologise!
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Jul 8, 2020 13:25
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Josef bugman posted:Didn't Paizo have an actual "children chained to evil emperor" thing and an actual child sexual assault demon?
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Jul 8, 2020 13:45
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https://twitter.com/danielhkwan/status/1279437710281891840 TL;DR: Dungeons and Da Asians' podcast is ditching D&D5E because you already know why.
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Jul 8, 2020 13:46
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As an Asian person, I hate that name of that podcast. Partially because it's just a non-pun of a name that also seems extremely forced
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Jul 8, 2020 14:41
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SO I agree that the CR fanbase has some fairly active lovely parts to it, both weirdly anti-lgbtq parts and those fun tumblr types that call you homophobic and harass you for eternity for drawing shipping art of a pairing they don't like, I just don't know what they can actually do about that. I mean putting out a statement or saying something on stream probably isn't actually going to stop anyone from being lovely because if they could be shamed into it they would have stopped before they did any of their lovely actions. I guess that would be due diligence but it would not materially change any of the factors so I kind of feel it's pointless. I mean you could do direct call outs of lovely behavior and the people involved but once you get a big enough fanbase there's kind of not enough hours in the day. This isn't to defend the lovely fanbase I just do not actually know what can be done in the CR Fandom, or really any fandom or forum or online community, to actually stop toxic people from joining and being themselves. Especially once you get big enough you're talking about tens of thousands of fans. Even swapping systems or calling out mearls directly (They should deffo at least be doing the latter even if it wouldn't change anything) I don't think would get rid of those toxic fans.
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Jul 8, 2020 15:36
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:
I may have gotten a bit lost here but I don't think anyone's actually saying swapping systems and calling out Mearls will deal with the fandom toxicity. That's just two big issues with CR that are being talked about simultaneously. They should be dealing with one And Also the other. Of course with fanbase toxicity I definitely do not have the answers for how to deal with that just because of how huge the fandom is and how limited the available tools are. Like I had said up thread, direct callouts would be more effective probably but would frankly be an ethical nightmare. Much smaller platforms than theirs have to be very careful about how they call out the behaviors of randos because audiences can easily be wielded like a club. Twitter/Tumblr also has basically no means of intracommunity moderation so there's little sway to be held on two of the largest homes for fandom.
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Jul 8, 2020 15:57
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Not to interrupt the discussion, but I'm doing an AMA on Kickstarter and how I use it over on twitter, if anyone would like to ask a question. https://twitter.com/SandyPugGames/status/1280866282569707527
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Jul 8, 2020 16:12
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dwarf74 posted:Paizo had the God of Child Molesters, not the dude who used kids as a human shield Got it! I somehow got them confused/mixed up, but thanks for the clarification!
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Jul 8, 2020 16:38
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Calling out Mearls would absolutely drive out some of their worst fans, specifically the ones who would then go on to say that CR had become cancel culture SJW cucks.
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Jul 8, 2020 16:40
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moths posted:Calling out Mearls would absolutely drive out some of their worst fans, specifically the ones who would then go on to say that CR had become cancel culture SJW cucks. I don't think there's anything to actually prove this. And even taking it on your word it's 'Some'. Please go back to talking about green black face that was at least funny.
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Jul 8, 2020 17:29
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The only thing I really wish that CR would do and is realistic as a goal for them is pretty simple. When WOTC assholes around and the discourse focuses on D&D, I want CR to shut the gently caress up. No more half assed sad vagueposting about how people should just "be nice" and "wade back in". If all they have in their mouth is meal and bootscraps, then just keep their mouths closed. That's all! People wouldn't focus on CR during these things if Mercer didn't think it was his job to ameliorate the space by saying "Certain things in the world are bad(I won't say which of course) and I'm the saddest little millionaire. Hugs plz."
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Jul 8, 2020 17:48
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:I don't think there's anything to actually prove this. And even taking it on your word it's 'Some'. Yes, CR will certainly have the only fandom on the internet to buck this trend.
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Jul 8, 2020 17:49
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moths posted:Yes, CR will certainly have the only fandom on the internet to buck this trend. You're expecting the lovely part of the fanbase to know who Mearls is and care.
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Jul 8, 2020 17:52
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King of Solomon posted:You're expecting the lovely part of the fanbase to know who Mearls is and care. The lovely part will. Or rather they will once The Quartering makes a video titled MILLIONAIRE SJWS WHO MADE $11 MILLION TO PLAY D&D BITE HAND THAT FEEDS THEM to explain it to them.
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Jul 8, 2020 17:57
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admanb posted:The lovely part will. Or rather they will once The Quartering makes a video titled MILLIONAIRE SJWS WHO MADE $11 MILLION TO PLAY D&D BITE HAND THAT FEEDS THEM to explain it to them. I guess? I dunno, I just don't think there will be many passionate defenders of Mike Mearls. It's not like he's Gary Gygax or something.
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Jul 8, 2020 18:00
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King of Solomon posted:I guess? I dunno, I just don't think there will be many passionate defenders of Mike Mearls. It's not like he's Gary Gygax or something. Mearls and Crawford are extremely popular with the masses hth.
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Jul 8, 2020 18:10
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Mearls and Crawford spoke directly to a very regressive part of the fanbase and gave them everything they ever wanted. So someone trying to remove them would anger the grogs.
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Jul 8, 2020 18:11
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King of Solomon posted:I guess? I dunno, I just don't think there will be many passionate defenders of Mike Mearls. It's not like he's Gary Gygax or something. They don't need to honestly care about defending him: once it turns into SJWs vs. old guard they'll rally their harassment campaigns around him regardless of whether they even knew his name a month ago. Note that I'm not saying any of this to argue that CR shouldn't do something. I'm just predicting what'll happen.
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Jul 8, 2020 18:19
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King of Solomon posted:I guess? I dunno, I just don't think there will be many passionate defenders of Mike Mearls. It's not like he's Gary Gygax or something. The culture war poo poo can get people to rally around complete non-entities as long as they thought it served their agenda
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Jul 8, 2020 18:24
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The grogs aren't even really big Critical Role fans. Like they are completely different people, most of my understanding with those who are willing to die on their shields for Zak and Mearls is that they don't actually gently caress with Critical Role at all.
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Jul 8, 2020 18:27
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Dexo posted:The grogs aren't even really big Critical Role fans. I mean most people who die on a hill don't actually care all that much about that particular hill, no. But if CR becomes a "culture war" battleground, they'll surely show up.
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Jul 8, 2020 19:10
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MadScientistWorking posted:Paizo has its issues but unlike D&D it generally tends to be trending towards being a better game than D&D. Now if only management could be complete replaced. I couldn't disagree more. WotC's current D&D may have all the delicacy and nutritional value of a happy meal. But Paizo have looked at D&D 3.X and decided what it needs is more feats and to make them more fiddly and less powerful. The feats are obnoxious to the point that you literally can't use the Intimidate skill on someone without talking without a feat; messily chop someone in half then draw your thumb across your throat and point to someone else and you don't have the Intimidating Glare feat you don't even get to roll to try to Demoralise them.
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Jul 8, 2020 19:19
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That would presumably count as a taunt. The Glare feat gets you the same thing without the carnage. PF2 does seem to be on a better trajectory overall than 5e, in terms of actually presenting a cohesively written game instead of a FAQ full of "Ask your DM."
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Jul 8, 2020 19:50
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Mr. Maltose posted:It’s extremely cool to be sarcastic towards a trans person being actively harassed because they dared suggest maybe something could be better. It’s a great look and I suggest you keep doing it. Rude sarcasm aside what are the ways this can be better? Like I'm seeing two related issues here: 1. Critical Role's comparably massive fanbase rooted in gamers and anime fans who know the voice actors is toxic and will rush in to harass anyone being mildly critical of CR. 2. Critical Role plays a lovely game designed by lovely devs for a lovely corporation and at this point is one of the main advertisements for the lovely game. So what are the solutions to the first issue? Off the top of my head I see a few, but I'm sure there's others: -Sink Critical Role entirely so that the awful fans disperse into the internet wilderness and find other things to be awful about. -Move to places where they have complete control over the fans they engage with and can regulate who has a voice in the discourse, like having a heavily moderated web forum. That'd make it clear what they welcome in their community, and that's definitely good. On the other hand, it stunts their visibility not engaging with people concentrated on our world's awful social media platforms, and the people already concentrated there will still be noxious. -Some wholly new effort to create educational videos and town hall-style presentations in an effort to change the way we engage with media and shift the relationship fans have with the things they're invested in. This would be neat, but seems like the kind of high-effort, slow payoff thing that would require a lot of people to develop a level of media literacy and emotional maturity that almost no place else tries to train into people. And what are some solutions to the second issue? I see a few I mentioned before: -Sink Critical Role since it's so heavily tied to D&D as a product anyway. Maybe start over from the ground up? Maybe just leave? -Cut ties with D&D and make it clear why. Shift to another tabletop RPG, ideally one with a generally agreed-upon balanced system that's not developed and published by awful people. Doable and plenty of Actual Plays do jump around between systems. CR already does one shots of other systems too, I believe. I'd be surprised if there's any game out there that fits what they want for a streaming format right now, but 5e D&D certainly doesn't, either, so that's neither here nor there. -Cut ties etc. as above, but make their own in-house system. Might have some payoff from fans who convert to it, but there's a lot of overhead cost there developing it, especially if you're going to something that's not just 5e with all the branding scraped off. If you're going from the ground up you'd probably want to build a system that fits streaming actual plays as a format, too, but that might make it unsuitable for how everyone else plays tabletop RPGs. A hybrid system with scaled levels of rules for when you're doing streams vs normal table games, maybe? -Try to lobby Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro into overhauling their management, and ideally producing a new version of D&D awful people weren't involved in. Maybe WotC is up to big management overhauls now with being publicly called out the past few days? It's hard to say. The dev team has been pretty entrenched up to this point, but I guess we'll see what happens in the next few months there. Are there some other feasible options here?
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Jul 8, 2020 19:54
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WotC might be surprisingly receptive to shakeups at D&D that would give cover to the MtG side of the house. They wouldn't have to fuss with the cash cow, just make some grand gesture over at the IP farm - where product quality doesn't actually matter.
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Jul 8, 2020 20:04
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dwarf74 posted:Paizo had the God of Child Molesters, not the dude who used kids as a human shield They also had to be shamed into admitting maybe it was a bad idea, by me and others, across multiple social media platforms and still dragged their feet on it and ultimately didn't even edit it out of the pdf. As well as covering up sexual harassment to their staff, telling staff not to make waves, covering up assault at their convention, not cutting ties with the assaulter and a history of other lovely things including incredibly toxic forums that they allow to be that way. It's a long, long list of crappy things with them, particularly involving junior women and LGBTQ+ people in the company. Maybe things will improve now Lisa Stevens is stepping back from CEO (And she did at least take down her 'all lives matter' facebook post) but I think their entire management structure is hosed and they have systemic problems.
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Jul 8, 2020 20:10
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Nuns with Guns posted:Rude sarcasm aside what are the ways this can be better? I actually don't have a concrete or cohesive answer to those questions, which is why I was only addressing Nessus being a huge prick for no reason towards someone being harassed for asking them. It's absolutely an issue that warrants further discussion, but Nessus being a passive agressive rear end while just asking questions isn't exactly a way to engender further discussion.
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Jul 8, 2020 20:42
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Dexo posted:The grogs aren't even really big Critical Role fans. As an example it's always been my understanding the likes of Pundit already hate CR already because 'aaaargh storygame swine' or whatever the Swarmi's keyboard barfs up these days. Grogs either fall into the 'it's not REAL D&D' or 'we don't care' camps.
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Jul 8, 2020 20:42
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yea like obviously there will always be shitters but I have no idea where this idea the fanbase will revolt over leaving D&D comes from...you guys know CR fans are like 90% big story loving roleplay nerds right? They'd be bummed if the campaign itself ended but I really just do not imagine there's a huge amount of critters who are watching because it's D&D and only because it's D&D. Shift to Pathfinder 2e would be the easiest and most hilariously CR option so hell at this point do it, at least I'll have less room to be smug because my group totally hopped from one abusive racist ship to a slightly different kind of abusive racist one like that. TTRPGs, because even with elves and wizards life is a fuckin nightmare.
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Jul 8, 2020 20:48
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It is very funny, though, imagining a Pundit type who just seethes with rage as they spend most of an episode dicking around in town or exploring backstories but forces themselves to consume it because it's D&D. "STOP PAINTING DICKS ON BAHAMUT'S STATUES AND GET TO THE COMBAT YOU SWINE"
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Jul 8, 2020 20:51
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sexpig by night posted:yea like obviously there will always be shitters but I have no idea where this idea the fanbase will revolt over leaving D&D comes from...you guys know CR fans are like 90% big story loving roleplay nerds right? They'd be bummed if the campaign itself ended but I really just do not imagine there's a huge amount of critters who are watching because it's D&D and only because it's D&D. They get dozens of complaints every time they use a house rule or miss anything by all accounts.
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Jul 8, 2020 20:59
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PST posted:They get dozens of complaints every time they use a house rule or miss anything by all accounts. yea but those guys don't actually give a poo poo about D&D they're just insufferable pedants, Paizo has plenty of books for them to be smug about owning too.
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Jul 8, 2020 21:07
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e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Jul 8, 2020 21:10
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