|
Ainsley McTree posted:Yeah, doesn't the last book heavily imply (maybe even outright state) that bayaz is orchestrating the revolutions? Given how long Bayaz has been around and how much of a schemer he is, it seems like he can see that change is coming and wants to be in charge of that, too. There are clues to suggest it might be Bayez. I think it's a misdirect because when Bayaz does that sort of thing, he does it for a reason, like build Jezal's reputation so he'd be a good moot candidate. He doesn't need to do that for Orso who's already in line to succeed.
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2020 01:35
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 14:50 |
|
|
Suxpool posted:i mean, eaters are compelled to eat human flesh and can never stop and we did spend a really long time travelling to the end of the world and back without seeing bayaz monchin' on any humans but if you gotta believe so be it The Heroes takes place well after that trip to get the Seed, and most importantly, after he breaks the First Law by using it. Once he’s decided to touch the Other Side, what’s a little “break the Second Law and get addicted to eating people” for more power?
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2020 03:25
|
|
|
Ugly In The Morning posted:The Heroes takes place well after that trip to get the Seed, and most importantly, after he breaks the First Law by using it. Once he’s decided to touch the Other Side, what’s a little “break the Second Law and get addicted to eating people” for more power? in bayaz terms, the heroes may as well be the week after the first trilogy. bayaz has been using eaters as tools for decades, perhaps hundreds of years if you buy into the shenkt=casamir theory. maybe you caught the impression that using the seed was a big shift in character for him, but i think you missed the point if so. bayaz has never respected anyone else's judgement of his actions, and anything he said contrary was just lip service. actually i think we can reasonably assume yoru sulfur is hundreds of years old himself, based on his strength and speed relative to other eaters. i've always kinda thought bayaz might meet his end at ferro's hands. it'd only be too poetic in a lot of ways. Suxpool fucked around with this message at 10:32 on Jul 7, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2020 10:27
|
|
|
I couldn't remember who shenkt was, so I looked him up, and man, this series needs more fan artists https://firstlaw.fandom.com/wiki/Shenkt 
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2020 13:59
|
|
|
Ainsley McTree posted:I couldn't remember who shenkt was, so I looked him up, and man, this series needs more fan artists I'm looking at your avatar and realize I want someone to Simpsons-ify the entire cast
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2020 14:14
|
|
|
haha gently caress it I'm going to do fanart of Shenkt if that's all there is. Someone give me a description of what he looks like
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2020 15:13
|
|
|
Ccs posted:haha gently caress it I'm going to do fanart of Shenkt if that's all there is. Someone give me a description of what he looks like quote:Shenkt is average height, with short fair hair. His face is pale and lean, not old, but deeply lined, with harsh cheekbones and eyes hungry bright in bruised sockets. The wiki is also obnoxiously written.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2020 15:24
|
|
|
Vichan posted:The wiki is also obnoxiously written. quote:Shenkt has the ability to "Bullet Time"
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2020 17:33
|
|
|
Ccs posted:I don't think he's much interested in bringing back those old aspects of the first trilogy. I doubt we'll ever see the inside of the Maker's house again, or those characters. That one character Judge seemed to have the same markings on her leg that Fenris did in the original trilogy, so maybe she was marked by Glustrod, but I also don't think a big bad like that is coming back either. I sorta see Bayaz as the one behind everything. Though writing a whole new trilogy and not changing the status quo at all would be a bit of a waste. The status quo changes a lot for people who aren't Bayaz. Commoners are significantly better off pretty much the world over as a side-effect of his efforts to hold on to his power as far as we can tell from the various pov.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2020 17:49
|
|
|
Relevant Tangent posted:The status quo changes a lot for people who aren't Bayaz. Commoners are significantly better off pretty much the world over as a side-effect of his efforts to hold on to his power as far as we can tell from the various pov. lol did you even read a little hatred? child slavery, dude. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2020 18:27
|
|
|
Relevant Tangent posted:The status quo changes a lot for people who aren't Bayaz. Commoners are significantly better off pretty much the world over as a side-effect of his efforts to hold on to his power as far as we can tell from the various pov. What? In what way, he has sabotaged their rebellion for better conditions in the first trilogy and in the second has pressured the lords to seize all the land which is forcing people off their farms and into horrible factories. Like the industrial revolution would have happened without him, but it he hadn't messed up then there'd be less of a willing labor supply so better conditions. There's a chance that as the Weaver he's trying to control the worst aspects of industrialization by creating an opposition to its excesses, but I doubt Bayaz cares about the populace that way. Though maybe his assassination of Jezal is from a realization that Jezal has been ineffective at providing for his people and thinks Orso will do a better job.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2020 19:12
|
|
|
I would say that if nothing else (and there's a lot else) the people of Dagoska did not fare particularly well from Bayaz's guiding hand
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2020 19:20
|
|
|
Ccs posted:What? In what way, he has sabotaged their rebellion for better conditions in the first trilogy and in the second has pressured the lords to seize all the land which is forcing people off their farms and into horrible factories. Like the industrial revolution would have happened without him, but it he hadn't messed up then there'd be less of a willing labor supply so better conditions. I don't think Bayaz cares about the populace at all but through his struggles to maintain his own personal power the Gurkish have collapsed which means the cannibal slaving theocrats aren't around anymore. Seems like a net good. I don't think he's planning to mitigate the Industrial Revolution at all, but the rebels have examples from the previous Rebellion about what not to do and even if he is the Weaver that doesn't mean things won't spin out of control. I'm not arguing he's a hard man making hard but necessary decisions, I just wouldn't be shocked if Joe keeps an ageless but extremely mortal guy around to cause problems so in that sense I don't think Bayaz's status quo gets changed. His scramble to maintain power has been the catalyst for every book though occasionally fairly indirectly.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2020 22:07
|
|
|
Ugly In The Morning posted:The Heroes takes place well after that trip to get the Seed, and most importantly, after he breaks the First Law by using it. Once he’s decided to touch the Other Side, what’s a little “break the Second Law and get addicted to eating people” for more power? Bayaz didn't need to use the Seed to break the first law. He (and all Magi) do it while performing their magic. When Bayaz is discussing the first and second laws on their journey to secure the Seed, Malacus asks him if they are not also breaking the first law by using magic, which requires touching the other side, and Bayaz agrees they are.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2020 05:12
|
|
|
Man, Malacus got such a raw deal.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2020 15:28
|
|
|
Do we know when exactly Malacus gets it?
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2020 18:04
|
|
|
Vichan posted:Do we know when exactly Malacus gets it? He's the body found half eaten in the first book near the castle right?
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2020 18:14
|
|
|
Braking Gnus posted:He's the body found half eaten in the first book near the castle right? Yup
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2020 18:41
|
|
|
Braking Gnus posted:He's the body found half eaten in the first book near the castle right? Ugh, poor guy... 
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2020 19:07
|
|
|
Khizan posted:I never got the impression that Bayaz is an Eater from that. More that he was doing it to gently caress with Calder and prove how few fucks he gave. The thing about being an Eater is that once you're an Eater you're an Eater forever, and I can't see Bayaz signing up for that. No, Bayaz is getting served a meal and when Calder asks where dessert is, he is told that Black Dow has it. Black Dow is at this point a corpse in a pit and is not likely to be carrying any random conventional desserts so the obvious implication is that Black Dow is the dessert. I suppose you could read it as him being dessert for Sulfur rather than Bayaz, but Sulfur wasn't eating the meal they were talking about and was only serving it so my reading is he was dessert for Bayaz. Also at the end of the initial trilogy when Bayaz admits that Sulfur is an eater, the passage pays particular attention to how straight and fine Bayaz's teeth are; which seems like it is trying to make an implication. Lastly as for the signing up to be an Eater seeming out of character, perhaps, but on the other hand: "This is war, Superior. In war one must make use of every weapon. Restraint is folly. Worse. Restraint is cowardice" - Bayaz It's definitely not explicit that Bayaz is an Eater, but there's enough implications that I tend to believe he is.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 09:21
|
|
|
team overhead smash posted:No, Bayaz is getting served a meal and when Calder asks where dessert is, he is told that Black Dow has it. Black Dow is at this point a corpse in a pit and is not likely to be carrying any random conventional desserts so the obvious implication is that Black Dow is the dessert. I suppose you could read it as him being dessert for Sulfur rather than Bayaz, but Sulfur wasn't eating the meal they were talking about and was only serving it so my reading is he was dessert for Bayaz. reasonable if you ignore all the time we spent with him that he couldn't have possibly been eating people i'd point to Bayaz' interaction with Mamun in TLoK: Mamun: "The time was you could have crushed me with a word, I do not doubt it. But now your words are only empty air. Your power has leaked away with the slow years, while mine has never been greater. ... Will you come with us willingly, and be judged by Khalul for your betrayal? Or must we come in and take you?" Bayaz: "You dare to speak to me of betrayal? You who betrayed the highest principals of our order, and broke the sacred law of Euz? How many have you murdered, so that you could be powerful?" Mamun: "Very many. I am not proud." from this, and other interactions, we know that the longer you are an eater, the greater your strength grows. we know that Bayaz' strength has been on the wane. we know that Bayaz has used eaters for many years as tools, encouraging at least two of his apprentices to walk down the path. we know he spent months travelling across the Old Empire without an opportunity to eat anyone. i guess its possible he could have become an eater after the original trilogy, but what would be his motivation to start here after abstaining for so many hundreds of years? bayaz definitely isn't an eater. thank you for reading my ted post
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 12:36
|
|
|
team overhead smash posted:No, Bayaz is getting served a meal and when Calder asks where dessert is, he is told that Black Dow has it. Black Dow is at this point a corpse in a pit and is not likely to be carrying any random conventional desserts so the obvious implication is that Black Dow is the dessert. I suppose you could read it as him being dessert for Sulfur rather than Bayaz, but Sulfur wasn't eating the meal they were talking about and was only serving it so my reading is he was dessert for Bayaz. I always figured it was Bayaz trying to be witty and referencing the phrase "just deserts".
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 13:56
|
|
|
team overhead smash posted:Black Dow is at this point a corpse in a pit and is not likely to be carrying any random conventional desserts so the obvious implication is that Black Dow is the dessert.. I wouldn't call a huge stretch unsupported by anything else in the books obvious. Warden posted:I always figured it was Bayaz trying to be witty and referencing the phrase "just deserts". It was this. He's just pointing out the body to say "if you try to take more than I'm offering then you can end up as a pile of meat in a pit too".
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 14:51
|
|
|
quote:
This was the impression I had after reading the second trilogy. That Bayaz, after almost loving up in his quest for the seed and then after disposing of nearly all his former peers and rivals, had finally said “gently caress it” and taken off all his limiters.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 16:25
|
|
|
I think it's purposefully ambiguous but also not a step he'd take due to its inconvenience.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 16:28
|
|
|
Old Kentucky Shark posted:This was the impression I had after reading the second trilogy. That Bayaz, after almost loving up in his quest for the seed and then after disposing of nearly all his former peers and rivals, had finally said “gently caress it” and taken off all his limiters. That's how I interpreted it as well. Would also explain why Cawneil apparently decided to go 'gently caress it' and work with Zacharias.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 16:55
|
|
|
Ccs posted:I think it's purposefully ambiguous but also not a step he'd take due to its inconvenience. I agree - I think that Abercrombie is deliberately leaving it open, but I also think that Bayaz is presented as a chessmaster whose power doesn't come from his magic or his physical powers. He's a stand-in for capital... his power comes from the fact that if you cross him he'll have you bankrupt, evicted, and arrested by the inquisition within a week. As an eater he's too personal of a threat, and that takes away some of the horror of him as this amorphous cloud of political power. To me he's "you can't fight city hall" in person.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 17:00
|
|
|
Ccs posted:I think it's purposefully ambiguous but also not a step he'd take due to its inconvenience. I also don't think he'd leave a weapon on the table that might turn the tide of a losing battle. I don't think Bayaz was an Eater by the end of the three standalone books, but I wouldn't put it past him to become an Eater if the need arises.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 23:06
|
|
|
After you've wiped out the army your rival has been building to attack you for hundreds of years and are once again firmly in control of the world seems an odd time to me to take up being an Eater after forgoing for so long.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 04:04
|
|
|
Xenix posted:I also don't think he'd leave a weapon on the table that might turn the tide of a losing battle. I don't think Bayaz was an Eater by the end of the three standalone books, but I wouldn't put it past him to become an Eater if the need arises. Probably. The way he's characterized I would lean towards he's not, though who knows. It seems like he wouldn't submit to a need that could control him; his MO is to control others. On the other hand, he'll obviously do anything in pursuit of his goals.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 05:32
|
|
|
Suxpool posted:After you've wiped out the army your rival has been building to attack you for hundreds of years and are once again firmly in control of the world seems an odd time to me to take up being an Eater after forgoing for so long. But immediately afterward he gets several of his long term plans derailed by a bunch of lowly mortals backed by a powerful eater of his own creation who hates his loving guts. The whole point of Best Served Cold is that no one is invulnerable and no grand plans ever really go off without a hitch. And then in the book after that, he shows up replete and powerful again in a scene where he ambiguously toys with meat near a pile of corpses. It's not 100% certain, but there's definitely an implication that Bayaz is willing to do whatever is necessary to stay on top.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 14:41
|
|
|
Old Kentucky Shark posted:It's not 100% certain, but there's definitely an implication that Bayaz is willing to do whatever is necessary to stay on top. Not even an implication about his willingness to do anything. Like I quoted: "This is war, Superior. In war one must make use of every weapon. Restraint is folly. Worse. Restraint is cowardice" - Bayaz I think we can all agree that Bayaz doesn't give a poo poo about the morality of eating people for greater power as long as it benefits him. If he chose not to become an eater it was because he finds the tradeoffs aren't worthwhile.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2020 00:16
|
|
|
It's just awkward wording. "Black Dow has it" is a weird thing to say and Calder probably didn't get it either. Like "ask Black Dow" would probably have been clearer.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2020 01:49
|
|
|
I still think the weaver is Khalul. They keep mentioning the weavers amazing voice, and everything he's doing is destabilizing bayaz' control. Plus you're going to have this major figure in the world go out without ever even appearing on page? I know Abercrombie doesn't like writing other cultures which is why we'll probably never get anything in the South, but still. There's eaters infiltrating the union, they gotta be acting on orders.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2020 02:41
|
|
|
thumper57 posted:It's just awkward wording. "Black Dow has it" is a weird thing to say and Calder probably didn't get it either. Bayaz in the bath, 2 hours later: “gently caress that was awkward, I really could’ve phrased that better...”
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2020 03:06
|
|
|
Terror Sweat posted:Plus you're going to have this major figure in the world go out without ever even appearing on page? I was kind of disappointed in that yeah. It would be pretty cool if it turns out to be him and he gets to be a real character.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2020 03:47
|
|
|
Yeah I really liked the character of Khadia, from the short stories it really seems that he was captured and turned into an eater, would be cool to see more of him. Or he was literally eaten by Khalul.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2020 07:08
|
|
|
Somebody mentions seeing him at the first meeting though and they don't mention he's Kantic. You'd think with the racism in the Union that would have been one of the first thing they noted. I think Abercrombie is a bit uncomfortable with how he handled the Gurkish in the first trilogy, which is why he's trying to integrate more of them into the narrative like Zuri, and dispense with them as the main villains.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2020 14:56
|
|
|
Ccs posted:Somebody mentions seeing him at the first meeting though and they don't mention he's Kantic. You'd think with the racism in the Union that would have been one of the first thing they noted. quote:Little is known about his powers and specialisation as a Magi, but in a Q&A with Joe Abercrombie, he commented that it's manipulation, control, air and movement. Maybe Khalul can shapeshift.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2020 15:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 14:50 |
|
|
Who says Khalul is a kantic
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2020 15:39
|
|