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Why is the government not doing anything about this Freedland? the people demand to know!
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Jul 9, 2020 09:54
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Jose posted:unsurprisingly jonathan freedland in yesterdays guardian article about it thinks the letter was right His name is probably along the lines of Cholmondley, it used to be "Freemanontheland" but it got elided.
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Jul 9, 2020 09:58
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Hey Twisto, could you dropbox that UKMY.csv somewhere? I'd like to flex my R muscles. e: sent a PM. Lunar Suite fucked around with this message at 10:09 on Jul 9, 2020 |
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Jul 9, 2020 10:05
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OwlFancier posted:I wonder if it's just showing its age but I can't help but feel this is describing a thing that I don't think exists and also drawing absolutely terrible conclusions and suggestions from it. Yes - going back and re-reading it there's less that's relevant every time. The appeal is identifying [people who are criticising you] as vampires who make their profit in pious denunciations, but denouncing others as social vampires unconcerned with class struggle is itself a pious denunciation. Beyond that, I don't think anyone in the UK or the US could seriously claim that we refuse to talk about class in deference to identities, or are scorning the parliamentary route to power, after our corresponding, largely united old-white-guy electoral campaigns. Owen Jones made it through the gauntlet alive, and we have a handful of more figures like him. The tactics Fisher describes still see use - but as he notes, they were a feature of some parts of the left pre-social-media too.
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Jul 9, 2020 10:09
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I really don't understand this £1,000 to employers for bringing back furloughed employees policy. It's not possibly enough to make it worth any employer retaining staff they were planning to fire. And it's a bunch of no-strings free government money to other firms that keep staff they would have kept anyway. Is it just blame shifting? The government has done their bit to keep people employed, and every firm that takes the money can be counted in stats as a job the government has 'saved'?
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Jul 9, 2020 10:14
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You guys clearly have never gone down the bottom left twitter rabbit hole and I'm loving jealous of you
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Jul 9, 2020 10:15
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peanut- posted:I really don't understand this £1,000 to employers for bringing back furloughed employees policy. That would be in line with pretty much everything else the Govt has done.
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Jul 9, 2020 10:16
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peanut- posted:Is it just blame shifting? The answer is always yes.
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Jul 9, 2020 10:18
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peanut- posted:I really don't understand this £1,000 to employers for bringing back furloughed employees policy. The only argument that could be possibly made is that if a company was on the verge of having to get rid of an employee for cost this could just tip it over the line towards ‘keep’. But yeah, not likely. Of course if you had a load of furloughed employees in say, a pub chain, who you are now bringing back anyway - well that’s just a nice £1000 bonus directly from the government per employee isn’t it. Cheers!
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Jul 9, 2020 10:20
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peanut- posted:I really don't understand this £1,000 to employers for bringing back furloughed employees policy. Helicopter money but not for people or anywhere it would make a difference.
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Jul 9, 2020 10:22
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Red Oktober posted:The only argument that could be possibly made is that if a company was on the verge of having to get rid of an employee for cost this could just tip it over the line towards ‘keep’. Particularly when you can have a young person work for you for nothing, instead
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Jul 9, 2020 10:23
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its enough money to look like they're doing something and its not their fault but obviously not actually enough money for any company with furloughed employees they can't afford to keep. if it was combined with a proper extension of the furlough scheme it might work better but this is just another way to give money to tory donors
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Jul 9, 2020 10:24
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You could give literally everyone in the UK £1000 and it would do a huge amount more good to the economy than these measures will, without costing much more. But that would involve giving money to the poor, who don't deserve it, unlike our good friend and political donor Tim Martin
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Jul 9, 2020 10:30
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lol https://twitter.com/flying_rodent/status/1281156531069825025?s=20
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Jul 9, 2020 10:31
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ThomasPaine posted:You guys clearly have never gone down the bottom left twitter rabbit hole and I'm loving jealous of you Pretty much every online left group I was in around 2013 collapsed in recriminations, sometimes it was silly, sometimes it was unpleasant. I just don't think that in the end it was as apocalyptic a pattern as Fisher describes: like you say, you have to hunt this stuff out now.
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Jul 9, 2020 10:39
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Wow! It feels just like a real stimulus package!
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Jul 9, 2020 10:46
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If there is one good thing to emerge from this mess, it's that that loving hipster cereal cafe has gone under.
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Jul 9, 2020 10:47
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josh04 posted:Yes - going back and re-reading it there's less that's relevant every time. The appeal is identifying [people who are criticising you] as vampires who make their profit in pious denunciations, but denouncing others as social vampires unconcerned with class struggle is itself a pious denunciation. Beyond that, I don't think anyone in the UK or the US could seriously claim that we refuse to talk about class in deference to identities, or are scorning the parliamentary route to power, after our corresponding, largely united old-white-guy electoral campaigns. Owen Jones made it through the gauntlet alive, and we have a handful of more figures like him. The tactics Fisher describes still see use - but as he notes, they were a feature of some parts of the left pre-social-media too. I think he's also missing the important point that anger and spite are important expressions of class solidarity. Like there is this idea that people are just doing ti performatively and out of a desire to make the world less enjoyable, but a lot of the motivation behind that approach comes from a very genuine place. It's literally all you have, a lot of the time. You're utterly politically disenfranchised but you can be a part of flexing collective power in specific cases, notably making people cry on twitter. I think looking at it and saying 1. that it's a bourgeois affectation, 2. that it's not a form of class consciousness, and 3. that everyone needs to stop doing it and act like little marxist robots are all really weird and wrong conclusions to draw. The desire to spit in the eye of people you have genuine reason to dislike and to do it with people you feel a degree of kinship with is entirely natural and unavoidable as long as society keeps making GBS threads on people. Your politics must include room for that or it's going to be the dryest most liberal shite imaginable.
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Jul 9, 2020 10:57
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Just posting to test a new av E: yeeessss
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Jul 9, 2020 11:00
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There’s a hall of mirrors effect here thanks to the quote-tweets nested four levels deep and it’s really a perfect metaphor for Twitter as a whole
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Jul 9, 2020 11:02
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who wants to see something deeply cursed? https://twitter.com/Gordopolitz/status/1281165451620466688?s=20
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Jul 9, 2020 11:04
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Camrath posted:Just posting to test a new av Before you die, you eat the fudge. Estimated delivery time: 7 days.
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Jul 9, 2020 11:04
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TACD posted:There’s a hall of mirrors effect here thanks to the quote-tweets nested four levels deep and it’s really a perfect metaphor for Twitter as a whole fortunately(?) i found the real thing and just lol at this sad old men https://twitter.com/MatthewdAncona/status/1281004872293376002?s=20
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Jul 9, 2020 11:06
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Fisher's just describing the blowback from trying to articulate an actual class analysis within a heavily neoliberalised and often extremely dismissive individualist 'left' that insists on decentring the unique importance of socioeconomic relationships, and I think it's this frustration that he's mad about rather than being outraged that people argue with each other or focus on 'irrelevant' secondary issues, which often seems to be a bit of a strawman wheeled out by his critics.
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Jul 9, 2020 11:21
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lol this is going ot end well https://twitter.com/leicesterliz/status/1280882721972248576?s=20
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Jul 9, 2020 11:24
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I'm not reading all that, can you give some context? who even is this person, how are they relevant to anything Also I hate unravelling a twitter onion of replies and replies-to-replies. Much like a real onion it's deeply unpleasant
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Jul 9, 2020 11:25
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OwlFancier posted:I think he's also missing the important point that anger and spite are important expressions of class solidarity. Like there is this idea that people are just doing ti performatively and out of a desire to make the world less enjoyable, but a lot of the motivation behind that approach comes from a very genuine place. It's literally all you have, a lot of the time. You're utterly politically disenfranchised but you can be a part of flexing collective power in specific cases, notably making people cry on twitter. I think that's uncharitable to Fisher, who was plenty caustic when the moment called for it. He'd by no means have been a friend to the cancel-culture letter shitbags. His worry was people achieving elevated status within left circles by sole virtue of being able to direct this anger in a kind of witch-finder general role, and there certainly were and are people who take that role - that's the 'bourgeois affectation'. I think in the longer view, far more people on the left were interested in being part of Corbynism and the role of professional caller-outer has been picked up by FBPEs and Weetmans. Say whatever else you like about the Novara lot, but they haven't made their rep tending to call-out threads and that's the specific form that Fisher's trying to pick out. ThomasPaine posted:Fisher's just describing the blowback from trying to articulate an actual class analysis within a heavily neoliberalised and often extremely dismissive individualist 'left' that insists on decentring the unique importance of socioeconomic relationships, and I think it's this frustration that he's mad about rather than being outraged that people argue with each other or focus on 'irrelevant' secondary issues, which often seems to be a bit of a strawman wheeled out by his critics. Agreed, but the conversation on this is very different now to where it was in 2013. I don't think there was a significant left movement to get behind Kamala Harris or Pete Buttigieg on an identarian basis, and liberals who suggested it were laughed at.
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Jul 9, 2020 11:25
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Ha - so working class artisanal pizza parlour guy's brother is a property developer in Leigh. https://twitter.com/readonlymike/status/1281156660485120000?s=20
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Jul 9, 2020 11:27
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:I'm not reading all that, can you give some context? who even is this person, how are they relevant to anything i posted the proper one upthread a bit
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Jul 9, 2020 11:27
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josh04 posted:I think that's uncharitable to Fisher, who was plenty caustic when the moment called for it. He'd by no means have been a friend to the cancel-culture letter shitbags. His worry was people achieving elevated status within left circles by sole virtue of being able to direct this anger in a kind of witch-finder general role, and there certainly were and are people who take that role - that's the 'bourgeois affectation'. I think in the longer view, far more people on the left were interested in being part of Corbynism and the role of professional caller-outer has been picked up by FBPEs and Weetmans. Say whatever else you like about the Novara lot, but they haven't made their rep tending to call-out threads and that's the specific form that Fisher's trying to pick out. I think that, if it happens, is self resolving. If that's how you make your way you're gonna eat poo poo for it sooner or later. It's not something I would be concerned about. I also dispute that individuals are able to direct the anger, I think the specific form of anger is inherently directed and to the degree any individual is seemingly "in control" of it is transient, they might point out specific instances but people are inclined to hop on board the cancel train of their own volition because it is something they're already disposed to be angry about. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 11:30 on Jul 9, 2020 |
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Jul 9, 2020 11:28
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so lockdown with no financial support? someone i know, who is insane, said this was all a conspiracy by bill gates to kill small businesses but looks like the UK is trying hard to prove him right
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Jul 9, 2020 11:28
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More incomprehensible gen-x "whither rational discourse" yammering by a white guy with a forehead that must be in on the Brendan O'Neill conspiracy because it goes *right to the top*
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Jul 9, 2020 11:30
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OwlFancier posted:You're utterly politically disenfranchised but you can be a part of flexing collective power in specific cases, notably making people cry on twitter. According to most studies, the percentage of people who derive enjoyment from making people cry is pretty small. If you are one of the exceptions, you might be overestimating how likely it is to form the basis for a viable political strategy, whether electoral or otherwise. https://www.pacer.org/bullying/resources/stats.asp
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Jul 9, 2020 11:31
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i'm sure all those people whining about cancel culture will be upset about this https://twitter.com/naadirjeewa/status/1281170488673386496?s=20
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Jul 9, 2020 11:31
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lmao https://twitter.com/s_mmo_/status/1281151156438302721?s=20 https://twitter.com/s_mmo_/status/1281153588035796992?s=20 https://twitter.com/s_mmo_/status/1281156438178619393?s=20
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Jul 9, 2020 11:37
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After all those media safaris into trump country I immediately knew that there would be something fishy with that guardian article on why “labour” voters in Leigh hate Corbyn Paper of rceord is certainly is not
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Jul 9, 2020 11:37
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remember when angela eagles constituency office had a brick thrown through it and it was obviously corbyn supporters? https://twitter.com/DawnButlerBrent/status/1280815231128780800?s=20
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Jul 9, 2020 11:42
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Jose posted:remember when angela eagles constituency office had a brick thrown through it and it was obviously corbyn supporters? It wasn't even into her office. But yes, no evidence whatsoever that it was Corbyn supporters, and it almost certainly wasn't, as yobbos had been going round bricking local buildings for some time, yet it was big headlines for months and brought up in just about every criticism of 'momentum thugs' for the next few years.
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Jul 9, 2020 12:00
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josh04 posted:
You absolutely still see the problem he identified in the conflict between more idpol heavy lines of thinking and more traditionally communist approaches. Whereas the latter would see class as a unified conceptual framework by which to analyse a variety of distinct though related forms of exploitation, the former sees it as one source of inequality amongst many, and one that shouldn't assume greater importance than any other. The latter is clearly the product of the neoliberal turn within political discourse because it problematises any notion of class solidarity in favour of broad mutual support between the subjects of an infinitely atomised variety of oppressions proposed by (well intentioned) intersectional theory. I think the rejection of class struggle as a central analytical pillar is based on a pretty suspect reading of Marxist theory that almost caricaturises the concept by implicitly reducing it to 'flat cap wearing male steelworkers' vs 'mr monopoly', which is kinda laughable.* That's besides the point though, because you can just argue that it's a sticking point between the Marxist and non-Marxist left. However, both currently attempt to occupy the same radical space at present, and this isn't sustainable. It's seen as a zero-sum game: both groups want to cast themselves as the 'authentic' Correct voice and inheritor of the radical tradition, leading to the appropriation of, for example, Marxist symbolism by people making distinctly un-Marxian arguments. This leads to a sectarian war of ideas which prevents mutually beneficial dialogue and leads to disingenuity and petty dismissiveness. I can guarantee that if you presented even a relatively innocuous class-analysis argument on Twitter today you'd get piles of replies accusing you of class-reductionism. I read Fisher as essentially pleading for people to engage in good faith with each other, acknowledge that they're not necessarily approaching things from the same angle, and recognise that they both ultimately want a better world so it's dumb to constantly fight and sabotage one another. * Don't get me wrong, vulgar 'Marxists' like this do exist, and they're idiots.
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Jul 9, 2020 12:19
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just realised i get to renew my visa again this fall yay.
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Jul 9, 2020 12:24
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