V. Illych L. posted:

re police racism, the thesis is not and cannot be that police is racist because every individual working for the police is racist, because that is obviously untrue and insane

the problem is that the way police - and especially american police - is structured, they are left with holding the bag for the deep failures of the rest of american society, which turns the attention of the state monopoly of violence from maintaining its legitimacy (through, you know, tracking down murderers etc) to constantly trying to reestablish its monopoly of violence from the people left behind by the rest of society, who are primarily minority groups. that they've been powerfully incentivised to arrest and stop etc. as many people as possible also factors into this, but it's a systematic and societal problem that is much broader than just the police.

this matters, because focussing more narrowly on the police means that one is tempted to go where it may be downright counterproductive - so for instance, breaking the police unions will almost certainly involve accepting more general anti-union legislation and while it's likely that it'll produce more accountability in the sense that police are suddenly likely to actually be sacked, it's not realistically going to reduce the violence or the mass arrests precisely because it's not really a matter of individual vice a lot of the time. it also means that abolition is a dangerous slogan, because it's very hard to defend if you're not deeply into a fairly specific ideological space - intuitively, it fundamentally makes the libertarian claim that the political state can only make things worse and that government intervention is bad, which is the opposite of true in the case of police violence

Declan MacManus posted:

i’ll also add that there are a lot of people who advocate for dismantling capitalism as a whole who have no idea what the gently caress that would actually look like and entail beyond a spontaneous redistribution of capital and resources that’s never gonna loving happen and they don’t get piled on nearly as much; maybe their optics are better who knows

thotsky posted:

I mean, it sounds like you're describing a pretty racist institution there; one that effectively, if not even purposefully victimizes minorities. I don't think it's a stretch to say that anyone who works for such an institution is a racist. Sure, there's a lot of people who would argue at length about all the ways we can do, say or think racist stuff and not be a racist, but they're already getting plenty of airtime and I don't think we really want to be helping those guys out.

Also, there's no evidence to support the implication that most people would be down with police reform if only it was suggested more cleverly or more politely. Libs and conservatives will oppose anything that threatens their conception of law and order. The former is only ever moved to a compromise if you scare them, and because of how entrenched these power structures are they can only ever be moved the slightest of amounts. If you believe in reform, abolition is a good slogan because it might actually result in some sort of compromise; safe, pragmatic and reasonable suggestions or demands can and almost always are dismissed out of hand.

If you don't believe in reform then this moment is still good because you'd want as volatile of a political situation as possible, you'd want the class divides and abuses of power to be made as clear as possible, you'd want more people to be radicalized, or maybe you just feel it's good and moral to engage in an uprising right now. Insisting this is counterproductive comes close to lib poo poo, because what exactly is the productive alternative here?

Oneiros posted:

even beyond the fact that there are not large protests in every loving state every loving day of every loving week for the better part of two loving months now calling for "medicare for all" this is a disingenuous as gently caress and you should feel bad for doing it

gradenko_2000 posted:

zegermans posted:

this is the episode they wanted to make but couldn't as long as the subreddit existed, because it would make fun of them and they're shame piggies

Lady Militant posted:

i don't think they are CANCELLED or some poo poo I just think this recent episode wasn't very good

Eegah! posted:

I think Taibbi almost made a pretty lovely point with the American history is not of white supremacy, but I think he was trying to say that American history isn't JUST that, it is in fact many things. So to adapt the 1619 project as US History curriculum would make people mad and turn them off to those ideas.

gh0stpinballa posted:

there was a place where the police were completely ineffective and prudent citizenry took it upon themselves to assume their duties. these people created small, family run firms that policed their neighbourhoods and set up an effective system of taxation to keep these community protection organizations fully funded. they eventually scaled up to become a transnational organization with franchises all over the world, engaged in a vast array of profitable enterprises. so don't ever tell me we can't function without the police.

dead gay comedy forums posted:

nah, far from it, however it makes for a good experience if they are willing to consider why it was bad

Declan MacManus posted:

the idea that everyone taking part in a revolution has to have all of their policy details and be prepared to debate is ridiculous; people know enough to know that the current policing system is broken, and abolition is the position that it can’t be reformed so it needs to be done away with. having a series of bulletpoints as demands when people ask you what you want is sufficient to march in the streets even if you have’t read the bread book and kapital

and yes the rallying cries tend to be overly simplistic; that’s why they’re rallying cries and not detailed platforms. you can’t chant out a sensibly written atlantic article without doing a couple of laps around the neighborhood and boring the gently caress out of everyone. there are a lot of realities to protest and movement that people are blissfully unaware of and it makes it easy for people who aren’t out doing the work to be like “hm hm ignorant rioters did you read your bookchin, have you prepared your thesis on what a post-police world looks like”

dead gay comedy forums posted:

chapo guys don't know how to disagree - tbf iirc amber is the one most likely to disagree with a guest - and it is a bad look, like, if you can't show some backbone because you invited someone who is making Bad Opinions, come on

Halloween Jack posted:

I think I need to read this 1619 Project thing, because I've heard a lot of criticism of it but I don't know what it's about. My impression is that it's more of the kind of Afro-pessimism that ultimately just excuses white supremacy and capitalism.

Gripweed posted:

"We should use the Mormon church as a model" is not a take I was expecting to see.

Halloween Jack posted:

I once went to a protest where several people had prepared call-and-response chants to yell over a bullhorn. I walked next to one of these people, who looked like a stereotype of the SJW that Ben Shapiro goes after. She tried to read an entire essay, which was worded like a term paper, and hand to quit because she lost her voice trying to shout it all in the summer heat.

Zedhe Khoja posted:

Amber pointing out that a portion of the left have latched onto deeply unpopular "radical" ideas that they will never actually have to try to implement because popular, easy to implement ideas are actually too much for them but they still want to feel "good" about themselves hit a little close to home for some folks, I guess. She's also dead right that police abolition is largely unpopular with the people its ostensibly trying to help. Taibbi and Amber can have lovely takes, but them pointing out how performative and pointless alot of the rhetoric from twitter leftists and liberals are in the current moment isn't really all that controversial.

Zedhe Khoja posted:

Amber pointing out that a portion of the left have latched onto deeply unpopular "radical" ideas that they will never actually have to try to implement

MizPiz posted:

Which of the Chapos is going to be the first to use the reaction to newest episode as proof that cancel culture is real?

Lady Militant posted:

this is literal joe biden campaign talking point lmao

Declan MacManus posted:

at worst, “abolish the police” pushes the overton window farther in the direction of actual, meaningful change and gives protests some room to come towards the middle

Best Friends posted:

Will's class interests and deep media connections are inevitably going to combine with middle aged white guy brain disease imo but that's probably years off

MizPiz posted:

Which of the Chapos is going to be the first to use the reaction to newest episode as proof that cancel culture is real?

Best Friends posted:

Will's class interests and deep media connections are inevitably going to combine with middle aged white guy brain disease imo but that's probably years off

Fame Douglas posted:

Sounds like this Joe guy has his head on straight


There is no "overton window" being pushed, people just know to ignore people with these types of ridiculous demands.