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Some more saints that are still "celebrated" in Denmark: Eve of St John (June 23), "Sankthansaften", we burn a big fire and get all patriotic (old assholes insist need a witch effigy, cf. Bloksbjerg) Eve of St Martin (November 10), "Mortensaften", we eat goose (or more often people don't eat anything special, maybe duck, because a goose is a lot, but it's still a thing) Most Danish holidays are celebrated on the eve prior, like Christmas & New Years eves.
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Jul 10, 2020 23:18
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Alhazred posted:Much be nice to have one day where you don't eat ammonia infused shark.
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Jul 10, 2020 23:59
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Everyone (most people) round here in South sweden at least still has a name day tied to saints
NLJP has a new favorite as of 00:14 on Jul 11, 2020 |
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Jul 11, 2020 00:06
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That’s really interesting because as I said, German Protestantism tried its best to purge that stuff or at least transform it - in some areas the feast of St Martin continued to be celebrated, but was now dedicated to Martin Luther instead, for example
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Jul 11, 2020 06:19
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St. Martin is celebrated in some Dutch towns. Typically, kids go door to door with li'l paper lanterns, sing songs*, and expect candy in return. They might even dress up for it a bit. Halloween is becoming more and more of a thing here, just copying American customs, but in places where kids go door to door for St. Martin they prob won't for Halloween. Oh, and the regions where this is celebrated do not really match up to the traditionally catholic regions or anything. I have no idea. * Intelligent, sane songs such as "Sint Maarten de koeien hebben staarten" (St. Martin, the cows have tails)
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Jul 11, 2020 06:32
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A little ironic given Halloween came from Europe first. It's fun, gives people excuses to dress up and run around outside, or throw costume parties, and eat candy. The bitching about it seems silly.
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Jul 11, 2020 06:43
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Ghost Leviathan posted:A little ironic given Halloween came from Europe first. i agree, its a nice way to celebrate the end of lent
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Jul 11, 2020 07:37
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Ghost Leviathan posted:A little ironic given Halloween came from Europe first. The traditional moment for dress-up here is carnaval. Anyway, nobody is "bitching" about Halloween, it's just not celebrated as widely here. In catholic regions there's a tradition of visiting the graves of your dead family members on All Hallow's Day though. The only people who complain about the dressing-up/scary part of Halloween are certain small groups of conservative christians who consider it 'devil worship'.
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Jul 11, 2020 07:43
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Carbon dioxide posted:
I don't see the issue here, this seems like a perfectly reasonable song to sing.
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Jul 11, 2020 07:47
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tfw youre the pink panther for fastelavn & nobody else shows up in costume
Carthag Tuek has a new favorite as of 08:06 on Jul 11, 2020 |
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Jul 11, 2020 08:03
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Alhazred posted:The punic wars did not officially end until 1985 when the mayor of Rome and the mayor of modern Carthage signed a peace treaty. I just told a bunch of friends and my sister about this post, please tell me that you have sources so I don't look like a fool.
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Jul 11, 2020 09:36
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The Mighty Moltres posted:I just told a bunch of friends and my sister about this post, please tell me that you have sources so I don't look like a fool. Here's a 1985 article about it with a free, questionably accurate history lesson. (The Romans only salted the earth around Carthage symbolically, right?)
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Jul 11, 2020 09:41
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Chamale posted:Here's a 1985 article about it with a free, questionably accurate history lesson. (The Romans only salted the earth around Carthage symbolically, right?) Thanks!
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Jul 11, 2020 10:08
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I mean, this is self-evident and pedantic as hell but if you're worried about potential criticism, just skip the "official" bit - I double checked and even in la repubblica at the time they start off by saying it's purely symbolic and aimed at increasing pan-mediterranean solidarity. The Roman mayor was Ugo Vetere, communist politician who had fought with the resistance in Italy during WW2, and apparently spent his 4 years as mayor of Rome working to restore the city. The mayor of Carthage was Chedli Klibi, Secretary-General of the Arab League and the only non-Egyptian to ever hold the position. Couldn't find anything interesting other than that Sulla Faex has a new favorite as of 12:42 on Jul 11, 2020 |
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Jul 11, 2020 12:39
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Chamale posted:Here's a 1985 article about it with a free, questionably accurate history lesson. (The Romans only salted the earth around Carthage symbolically, right?) Even if they salted it earth it would've taken a lot of salt to make the soil useless. Probably more salt than the romans had.
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Jul 11, 2020 12:53
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Carthag Tuek posted:aaaah gently caress, that was a "typo" lol 
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Jul 11, 2020 14:58
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Chamale posted:(The Romans only salted the earth around Carthage symbolically, right?) There’s no evidence they did it even symbolically - no classical sources mention it, the oldest known reference to salting Carthage is medieval.
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Jul 12, 2020 17:44
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Alhazred posted:Even if they salted it earth it would've taken a lot of salt to make the soil useless. Probably more salt than the romans had. Carthage was a coastal town, they could probably have flooded the fields with seawater if they really, really wanted to.
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Jul 12, 2020 19:07
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The Grachi were talking of building a colony in Carthage and Carthage burned in their childhood
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Jul 12, 2020 19:16
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Salting the earth was only ever symbolic, nobody ever used enough to actually destroy significant amounts of land. The Romans definitely did salt cities they conquered (by driving a single plow through a significant part of town and sowing salt behind it) but the first known written assertions that Carthage was salted don't appear until the 1800s, 2000 years after it supposedly happened, and as such it's likely it didn't. Salting isn't even particularly effective. The Straight Dope concluded that it takes 31 tons of salt per square acre, sown to a depth of 1 foot, to reduce crop yield by 75%,and only until the salt washes away in the rain.
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Jul 12, 2020 23:02
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I wonder what was the most thorough razing and depopulation of a city in history. Maybe the capture of Baghdad, the Mongols seemed to be pros at that sort of thing. Here’s something I didn’t know until today: the last naval battle of WW2 was fought between sailing ships. Two junks crewed by Chinese/U.S sailors battled a Japanese junk off the Chinese coast. The Japanese were using a howitzer and the Americans were using two bazookas, and the battle concluded when one of the U.S.-commanded vessels boarded the Japanese ship. https://www.navygeneralboard.com/the-last-naval-battle-of-world-war-2/ The source I posted also calls this engagement the last time the U.S. boarded an enemy ship in combat, but I feel like there must be some sort of boarding action against a hostile ship in the years since, even if it was a non-state actor.
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Jul 13, 2020 02:16
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Kevin DuBrow posted:
Depending on how fast and loose you want to play it, I’m sure you could count pre-DHS Coast Guard boarding actions if non-state actors count.
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Jul 13, 2020 04:12
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Alhazred posted:Even if they salted it earth it would've taken a lot of salt to make the soil useless. Probably more salt than the romans had. well, you know, they were paid in it 
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Jul 13, 2020 05:42
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Yeah if you want to salt the Earth for good, you need seawater intrusion. Start by destroying the wetlands, graduate to raising the level of the seas.
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Jul 13, 2020 05:44
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Kevin DuBrow posted:I wonder what was the most thorough razing and depopulation of a city in history. Maybe the capture of Baghdad, the Mongols seemed to be pros at that sort of thing. I'd wager the absolute most successful one is probably one nobody has ever heard of, as the obliteration was so complete? Ancient rulers had all sorts of lists of cities they destroyed and populations they brought to heel. If we don't know anything else about them, then it's kinda a coin flip as to whether they were very effective victories/genocides or just PR-pumped propaganda about them sacking some little podunk town. CleverHans has a new favorite as of 06:55 on Jul 13, 2020 |
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Jul 13, 2020 06:51
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Kevin DuBrow posted:I wonder what was the most thorough razing and depopulation of a city in history. Maybe the capture of Baghdad, the Mongols seemed to be pros at that sort of thing. I think in terms of the sheer scale of the destruction, some of the bombing campaigns in WWII probably have them beat.
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Jul 13, 2020 06:54
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Red Bones posted:I think in terms of the sheer scale of the destruction, some of the bombing campaigns in WWII probably have them beat. Was thinking this too: how do you compare an extended battle campaign to just straight up vaporizing tens of thousands of people in a split second?
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Jul 13, 2020 07:09
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Barbarians really significantly depopulated the city of Rome. It just took most of a millennium.CleverHans posted:Was thinking this too: how do you compare an extended battle campaign to just straight up vaporizing tens of thousands of people in a split second? 
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Jul 13, 2020 07:33
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City depopulation is often more that when the empire and infrastructure starts falling apart the city can no longer import the food and water required to sustain its population.
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Jul 13, 2020 08:01
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Vijayanagara was a large city (anywhere between 100,000 and half a million inhabitants?) that was thoroughly looted in 1565 and was never rebuilt afterwards.
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Jul 13, 2020 09:46
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Plastik posted:Salting the earth was only ever symbolic, nobody ever used enough to actually destroy significant amounts of land. The Romans definitely did salt cities they conquered (by driving a single plow through a significant part of town and sowing salt behind it) but the first known written assertions that Carthage was salted don't appear until the 1800s, 2000 years after it supposedly happened, and as such it's likely it didn't. IIRC north africa used to be agriculturally fertile until millennia of aggressive monoculture farming turned it into desert or semi-desert.. maybe this "they salted the earth at carthage" idea is an acrophyal reconciliation between their ancient sources of north africa as europe's breadbasket, and north africa 2000 years later?
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Jul 13, 2020 13:57
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Sulla Faex posted:IIRC north africa used to be agriculturally fertile until millennia of aggressive monoculture farming turned it into desert or semi-desert.. maybe this "they salted the earth at carthage" idea is an acrophyal reconciliation between their ancient sources of north africa as europe's breadbasket, and north africa 2000 years later? Last I heard you can also blame goats
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Jul 13, 2020 16:06
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graziest of all time
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Jul 13, 2020 16:14
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CleverHans posted:I'd wager the absolute most successful one is probably one nobody has ever heard of, as the obliteration was so complete? Sir Terry Pratchett posted:Like, supposing the population is being a bit behind with its taxes. You pick some city where people are being troublesome and kill everyone and set fire to it and pull down the walls and plough up the ashes. That way you get rid of the trouble and all the other cities are suddenly really well behaved and polite and all your back taxes turn up in a big rush, which is handy for governments, I understand. Then if they ever give trouble you just have to say "Remember Nangnang?" or whatever, and they say 'Where's Nangnang?' and you say, 'My point exactly.'
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Jul 13, 2020 18:26
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Sulla Faex posted:IIRC north africa used to be agriculturally fertile until millennia of aggressive monoculture farming turned it into desert or semi-desert.. maybe this "they salted the earth at carthage" idea is an acrophyal reconciliation between their ancient sources of north africa as europe's breadbasket, and north africa 2000 years later? There are a lot of arguments against this view of North Africa - there's a paper called Desert 'wastes' of the Maghreb: desertification narratives in French colonial environmental history of North Africa that you can search for on Sci-Hub if you have the time, that covers the counterargument and how this viewpoint is tied up in French colonial-era politics in certain ways. It's pretty interesting! I don't want to jump on you and assume that you think all of North Africa is a big desert or anything, but I think it's good to also point out that a lot of the coasal Maghreb is mediterranean climate, and even up in the mountains it's not just endless sand and rock. Here's a nice photo of North-East Tunisia:  And some other photos of agricultural and pastoral land in Morocco:   Bonus round because I was looking at photos: guess where this is (not North Africa):   It's Iran! Specifically Gilan province.
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Jul 13, 2020 19:53
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Red Bones posted:There are a lot of arguments against this view of North Africa - there's a paper called Desert 'wastes' of the Maghreb: desertification narratives in French colonial environmental history of North Africa that you can search for on Sci-Hub if you have the time, that covers the counterargument and how this viewpoint is tied up in French colonial-era politics in certain ways. It's pretty interesting! This paper is one I have read before that goes through several reasons for historical decrease in fertility of several in ancient times productive lands in the middle east. If I recall correctly it basically comes down to everything with local combinations of changes in farming practice due to different economic and safety conditions, clearcutting, erosion and even metal poisoning from roman industries.
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Jul 13, 2020 20:44
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e: will also grab that ^ That is interesting, I have downloaded it and will check it out, thanks! I know north Africa is not ubiquitously desert, but I actually had no idea there were colonialist subtexts to this idea of the relative exhaustion of the region's fertility through "irresponsible" agriculture (although I'm not sure any agriculture supporting a sufficiently growing population has ever been "responsible", it's more a broader human criticism than specific to any culture or region). I just finished a book about agriculture and land overuse/misuse, so it was fresh in my mind and I remembered some vague tidbit about the old roman breadbaskets suffering from salinisation through overfarming. I'll read up on it
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Jul 13, 2020 20:47
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CleverHans posted:I'd wager the absolute most successful one is probably one nobody has ever heard of, as the obliteration was so complete? Ayutthaya, which had been the capital of the Siamese kingdom for four centuries, was completely destroyed by the Burmese in 1767 in the Burmese-Siamese war of 1765-1767 quote:Sack of the city I have visited the ruins and while the city wasn't completely reduced to ashes, there isn't very much left and the destruction of the city also destroyed the kingdom of Ayutthaya. There is still an anti Burmese feeling in Thailand over the atrocities from that war.
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Jul 13, 2020 23:59
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Schatzgräber was a Nazi weather station secretly established in the Franz Josef Land archipelago, modern day Russia, in 1944.  Less than a year after the crew arrived, they shot and killed a polar bear, which was prepared by the station's cook as steak tartare. Within a month, nine men fell ill with tapeworm, with only a lone vegetarian remaining healthy. The station was abandoned and, while its existence was documented, the station was undiscovered until 2016. This video shows some of the hundreds of artifacts found at the site. Some of them are very interesting, like a hair tension hygrometer (used to measure relative humidity) with the human hair intact. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXZOuuO0Sk0 Kevin DuBrow has a new favorite as of 03:59 on Jul 14, 2020 |
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Jul 14, 2020 03:56
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While we’re on the subject of human hair used in instruments of the Second World War, Mary Babnik Brown provided the crosshairs for the Norden bombsight.
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Jul 14, 2020 05:10
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