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Microcline posted:Even setting up 2-4 duplicate machines (which is entirely reasonable in a normal playthrough) with the requisite splitters, mergers, belts, and powerlines is significantly more tedious than building a similar setup in Factorio, despite the Factorio setup likely being significantly larger and more complicated (almost all manifold-production-manifold setups in Factorio are the same for each type of production machine). The limits of a 3D UI doesn't mean Satisfactory needs blueprints less, it means it needs them more. imo satisfactory is more interested in the constraints of physical space than factorio is, which means that the blueprint solution isnt necessarily the right one. satisfactory cares more about gentle undulations and corkscrewing caverns and glorious waterfalls and majestic cliffs, and making your factory work within that space and blueprints sorta...work to just ignore that problem. And it works in factorio, because factorio is Fundamentally About scale and logistics rather than being About the physical world. so I can see small scale blueprints (like, powerpole, assembler, splitter and belt groupings) fitting into the satisfactory model, but if the optimal solution becomes "build a giant platform above the world and then slap your blueprints down on the flat plane" then...just play factorio. I think they need asolution, but the solution should mesh with the game. we wouldnt want ludologicstical dissonance!
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Jul 14, 2020 01:26
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awesmoe posted:imo satisfactory is more interested in the constraints of physical space than factorio is, which means that the blueprint solution isnt necessarily the right one. satisfactory cares more about gentle undulations and corkscrewing caverns and glorious waterfalls and majestic cliffs, and making your factory work within that space and blueprints sorta...work to just ignore that problem. And it works in factorio, because factorio is Fundamentally About scale and logistics rather than being About the physical world. Also this. I like my weirdass undulating factories. If they put in blueprints the game would be tuned with the expectation that I use them and thus my weirdass factory would be no more.
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Jul 14, 2020 01:31
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Fangz posted:Let me explain again, what you are supposed to do is *not* hit the next tier as soon as possible. You are not suppose to scale up for mass production by clicking a thousand times or whatever until you can produce what you need in two minutes. If the only point of exploration is to reduce tedium then that's not a good game. Alternative recipes aren't just about speed but using the right resources. Also your examples somehow imply that resource nodes are not somehow bottlenecks.
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Jul 14, 2020 01:41
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If resource nodes are bottlenecks then this whole blueprint discussion is meaningless. Reducing the tedium of doing the same thing over and over is not just the best, but really the *only* design reason to include an exploration element in this game. Fangz fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Jul 14, 2020 |
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Jul 14, 2020 01:45
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That the factory building in a game called Satisfactory is intentionally tedious because said tedium is the only reason to explore is easily one of the worst game design takes I've read on these forums. Factory building is supposed to be fun, with the challenge being designing the factory and generating the resources required to build it, not the hundreds of repetitive clicks currently required to put it on the ground. And people don't go exploring because building is tedious but because exploration is enjoyable in itself. The resources and recipies found generally don't reduce the amount of factory required but greatly increase it, meaning the two halves of the game reinforce each other instead of being a loop of chores.
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Jul 14, 2020 02:19
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It's not intentionally tedious, you just aren't meant to do it in the way you are. Blueprints make things faster but do not inherently make building a factory more fun.
Fangz fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Jul 14, 2020 |
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Jul 14, 2020 02:21
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I find the building part to be very zen. A real sense of accomplishment after I get something built.
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Jul 14, 2020 02:27
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Fangz posted:It's not intentionally tedious, you just aren't meant to do it in the way you are. Blueprints make things faster but do not inherently make building a factory more fun. Are you even reading what you're writing? The way a bunch of people play is wrong, and that's somehow a failing of the players and not the game design?
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Jul 14, 2020 03:01
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necrotic posted:I find the building part to be very zen. A real sense of accomplishment after I get something built. so there's definite YMMV going on
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Jul 14, 2020 03:02
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LLSix posted:The way a bunch of people play is wrong Yes but also this
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Jul 14, 2020 03:03
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LLSix posted:Are you even reading what you're writing? The flaw of the design is in not nudging those players on to the right, more fun way to play. I'm not saying somehow that the game is perfect. I'm saying that specifically blueprints are a poor fit for the game. Fangz fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Jul 14, 2020 |
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Jul 14, 2020 03:27
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Fangz posted:It's not intentionally tedious, you just aren't meant to do it in the way you are. Who are you to dictate how others should play a factory sandbox game? quote:Blueprints make things faster but do not inherently make building a factory more fun. They make it more fun by allowing one to prototype a design and then rapidly deploy it in multiple locations, rather than having to rebuild it from scratch every time. Also, I daresay the person who did this might have found blueprints useful. 
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Jul 14, 2020 03:40
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jesus gently caress
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Jul 14, 2020 03:44
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anything to do with power needs a blueprint
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Jul 14, 2020 03:49
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I'd be fine with simple copy/pasting not even importing blueprints.
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Jul 14, 2020 03:50
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This seems unhealthy 
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Jul 14, 2020 03:52
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Microcline posted:Even setting up 2-4 duplicate machines (which is entirely reasonable in a normal playthrough) with the requisite splitters, mergers, belts, and powerlines is significantly more tedious than building a similar setup in Factorio, despite the Factorio setup likely being significantly larger and more complicated (almost all manifold-production-manifold setups in Factorio are the same for each type of production machine). The limits of a 3D UI doesn't mean Satisfactory needs blueprints less, it means it needs them more. It's funny, what you describe as tedious is one of my favorite parts of the game. I LOVE putting down constructors / assemblers / etc. That feeling when you get all the conveyors lined up just right with nice 90 degree turns is  
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Jul 14, 2020 04:39
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socialsecurity posted:I'd be fine with simple copy/pasting not even importing blueprints. Same. Gamerofthegame posted:anything to do with power needs a blueprint Coal's not that bad, but fuel? Jesus gently caress, yes. It took me 4 hours to set up oil>products>fuel cycle and most of it was needless busywork of 'place 10 refineries, then place 10 more, now place 10 more'. Considering the amount of stuff you need to unlock later tiers, going hur dur just explore is, idk, weird. If you make 5 versatile frameworks/minute you're still looking at 8 hours of pure waiting.
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Jul 14, 2020 04:45
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 lol
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Jul 14, 2020 04:52
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Fangz posted:Also this. I like my weirdass undulating factories. If they put in blueprints the game would be tuned with the expectation that I use them and thus my weirdass factory would be no more. Have you played Factorio with blueprints? You still design each individual bit that you're going to stamp out - having blueprints doesn't make your factory any less spaghetti. It arguably can make the spaghetti even worse, as you have to hook all the inputs and outputs up properly, and that in itself can be a challenge. Blueprints are what make the game scale. You start out doing stuff by hand. You then move to building machines to do it for you. You then scale up the machines and move through the tech tree. Around this time you need more resources, so you set up a small train network. You then get enough science and resources to use constructor bots/blueprints. You now start scaling up en masse, just about at the time where your factory needs to make blue chips that absolutely devour green and red chips, necessitating a much larger scale of production. At that specific point though, you're no longer placing one assembler at a time, you're placing a dozen assemblers at a time as one huge block. The intricacies and logistics behind shipping in the masses of ore, smelting it, pressing them into circuits, and shipping tons of circuits where they need to go becomes the new step of the game. Power starts to become a real bottleneck at this point too, especially as modules start coming online and spiking power requirements drastically. The rocket is the ultimate culmination of all of this, where the vast quantities of resources that you now are wielding are channeled into a single goal of launching a satellite into space. It's a nice, smooth progression where your factory grows in complexity over time, and just as you need to work with lots of resources at once, you get the tools to do so and to really scale up your factory with relatively few clicks, but a lot of effort in designing each individual block, and even more effort in tying together your logistics network to get everything where it needs to go. Satisfactory still requires similar scaling after a certain point (unless you're content waiting a half-dozen hours to get an unlock), but it never makes hooking up the machinery less tedious. It's lacking that next step where you suddenly start hooking up all the nodes around the map and shipping the ore to central processing stations and then distributing the results to where they need to go. That scaling doesn't happen unless you do it by hand. Hell, one extremely simple change they could do that would make the game infinitely better? Allowing us to hook power up to one brick of a foundation and having that power all machines attached to that foundation. Removing all of the tedious busywork with power poles would vastly simplify setting up machinery. Click dragging foundations or machinery would be fantastic as well, and even better would be an option that put a splitter or a merger and a short belt to each input of the machine so that we can hook up chains of machines more easily (these sorts of things would make great exploration unlocks, by the way). More clicks != better gameplay. The gameplay in a game like this is in the design, layout, and logistics of the factory. Tedious busywork of laying down foundations and power poles one at a time and hooking up each machine by hand actively makes the game significantly worse, not better.
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Jul 14, 2020 12:22
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While I have no problem with individually placing everything, I do agree that power lines are needlessly fiddly. At least let me daisychain machines that are next to each other together so it looks tidier.
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Jul 14, 2020 12:38
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Dirk the Average posted:Hell, one extremely simple change they could do that would make the game infinitely better? Allowing us to hook power up to one brick of a foundation and having that power all machines attached to that foundation. Removing all of the tedious busywork with power poles would vastly simplify setting up machinery. That seems to be a planned feature, but no clue when they're gonna get to it.
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Jul 14, 2020 12:46
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Having played this game for about 50-60 hours, I've been enjoying the hell out of it, even in its incomplete form. The thing about blueprints is I'm not entirely sure how useful they'd be in this game that places such a strong emphasis on 3D and verticality. It works great in a 2D overhead game like Factorio, where everything will always line up nice and neat on a grid, but not so much for Satisfactory. Maybe blueprints could only work on a sufficiently sized platform of foundations? But that's kinda boring...
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Jul 14, 2020 16:07
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Kurr de la Cruz posted:Having played this game for about 50-60 hours, I've been enjoying the hell out of it, even in its incomplete form. Well, there are certain things which are fairly deterministic; if I’m splitting one belt to three machines on foundations I tend to use the same placement and spacing for all of the belts and splitters; if I’m splitting one faster belt into six machines on foundations I’m just going to block out two identical setups. The witness lines make this doable with relative speed, but once we start talking Assemblers in groups, I’m splitting a belt of each input through two stacked splitters, the upper of which which has a minimum required distance for a valid slope. A tool like the mass-deconstruct, but which selects only machines, belt stuff including splitters and connections, poles and wires via clicks and then saves the configuration could work. Maybe only allow mass-building on Foundations, as well. The current 50 item limit is enough I think to do splitters-belts-machines-belts-merger for triple Assembler blocks, I think.
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Jul 14, 2020 16:34
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Oh man. When you have the constructor out mouse wheel no longer swaps weapons, right? Mouse wheel mode select! Deconstruct all, machines only, belts only, foundations/walls only, etc.!
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Jul 14, 2020 16:45
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A while ago I saw an idea that blueprints could perhaps be prepared in a "VR mode", e.g. the space inside the HUB where the MAM used to be. You enter an empty space and then build a blueprint around an anchor point. Then you can load it into the regular world and place it.
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Jul 14, 2020 16:48
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I don't even want blueprints so much as I do ghost building/planning.
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Jul 14, 2020 16:53
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I just want copy/paste
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Jul 14, 2020 16:55
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Building poo poo is tedious. Connecting it up with power and belts is tedious. Having to place that splitter 3 times because it's one notch away from the right spot, or having to delete and replace the conveyer elevator thing again because its facing the wrong direction is frustrating. Having an option to make these things happen automatically wouldn't detract from the game. Blueprints, copy/paste swathes of production areas, and ghost building to plan out space would all help with this. Also something that helps calculate inputs and outputs would be nice. Maybe a computer building where you plug in your current recipes and it tells you that you need to build x constructors producing screws, y assemblers producing rotors, etc. That would be nice.
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Jul 14, 2020 17:30
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Dark_Swordmaster posted:I don't even want blueprints so much as I do ghost building/planning. This is what I was thinking would be best. Something like a somewhat prohibitively expensive 1-5 use drone that you can use to select a segment of factory, then place that selection in a projected hologram from the drone and each machine you have to click on with resources to build but foundations and walls that are contiguous are single click builds. Theres a natural limitation on it due to the size of the area you can select and the amount of stuff you can carry to build it at once. You still have to belt and pipe but everything else would carry over as a placeholder.
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Jul 14, 2020 17:49
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Dirk the Average posted:Hell, one extremely simple change they could do that would make the game infinitely better? Allowing us to hook power up to one brick of a foundation and having that power all machines attached to that foundation. Removing all of the tedious busywork with power poles would vastly simplify setting up machinery. Since there's no universal grid to line the foundation up, I now lay down foundation everywhere so that all my factory components are on the same grid. I'd end up with all my power being through the foundation. I would enjoy that. I don't think there's anything wrong with it, but it is a surprising result of a seemingly straightforward change. Dirk the Average posted:Click dragging foundations or machinery would be fantastic as well, and even better would be an option that put a splitter or a merger and a short belt to each input of the machine so that we can hook up chains of machines more easily (these sorts of things would make great exploration unlocks, by the way). I'm not sure this is a great idea though. Especially for factory elements that have multiple inputs/outputs. There's a lot of variation in how I layout the connecting elements. Sometimes I want them closer in, sometimes I want them farther out. Sometimes I want two parallel lines. Sometimes I use two vertically stacked lines. There's lots of non-obvious options and consequences of belt/pipe layout and both me and my wife come to different solutions. Having an integral splitter would standardize most factory block layouts much more than is currently the case, and there's no gaurantee the default layout would be anything like optimal. I think the idea has promise, and would probably be much happier with even a barebones implementation of it than the current situation, but there's got to be a better way to do this.
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Jul 14, 2020 18:05
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I'd even go for something like Fallout 4 where you could pick up and reposition an existing structure. That'd really save me some time. Ghost building would be great too. I just can't see how blueprints would work without an overhead view. Lookout towers aint enough.
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Jul 14, 2020 19:14
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I mostly LIKE the tedium of fiddling about with input/outputs. Like every single one of my factories is slightly different because of how I was feeling at the time. I'd prefer QOL changes more than massive automatic building solutions, like letting us swap the direction of belts/elevators, let us start building elevators in mid-air, make holding control actually useful by snapping to the specific thing you hovered over first, make building hitboxes less of a pain in the rear end, give splitters/mergers the same tube-thing elevators have that automatically connects to in/outputs that are close enough, make the splitter's hitbox not just barely tall enough to block your movement when it's floating 1 meter up, etc. Granted, this is my first time doing most of this stuff. Spending a whole afternoon constructing my absurdly complicated Oil Residue -> 300/m FPR factory was a good time, but the prospect of having to do it again is pretty hard to swallow. So I'm definitely not opposed to blueprints and such. Pigbuster fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Jul 14, 2020 |
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Jul 14, 2020 19:29
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Pigbuster posted:Granted, this is my first time doing most of this stuff. Spending a whole afternoon constructing my absurdly complicated Oil Residue -> 300/m FPR factory was a good time, but the prospect of having to do it again is pretty hard to swallow. So I'm definitely not opposed to blueprints and such. I'm actually doing this right now, with the added pain of making it expandable to a full 300/m, starting at just 100/m. Ghost buildings would REALLY help with this lol.
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Jul 14, 2020 19:37
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vandalism posted:Building poo poo is tedious. Connecting it up with power and belts is tedious. Having to place that splitter 3 times because it's one notch away from the right spot, or having to delete and replace the conveyer elevator thing again because its facing the wrong direction is frustrating. Having an option to make these things happen automatically wouldn't detract from the game. Blueprints, copy/paste swathes of production areas, and ghost building to plan out space would all help with this. Also something that helps calculate inputs and outputs would be nice. Maybe a computer building where you plug in your current recipes and it tells you that you need to build x constructors producing screws, y assemblers producing rotors, etc. That would be nice. It does bear repeating, if you hit n, a small search box comes up where you can see any recipes (including alt recipes!) and add them to your to do list (similar to the workbench).. BUT it ALSO functions as a rudementary calculator for adding, dividing, multiplying and such. Even repescts parenthesis.
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Jul 14, 2020 20:03
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I think I need to turn off the music for this game. I'm starting to hear that synth loop while not even playing it 
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Jul 14, 2020 21:57
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I think blueprints could work without too much trouble:
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Jul 15, 2020 01:17
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DelphiAegis posted:It does bear repeating, if you hit n, a small search box comes up where you can see any recipes (including alt recipes!) and add them to your to do list (similar to the workbench).. BUT it ALSO functions as a rudementary calculator for adding, dividing, multiplying and such. Even repescts parenthesis. Nice. I never knew about this. Thanks!
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Jul 15, 2020 03:48
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 https://imgur.com/a/ukstUKn As I was building a train network in game night time, a thought occurred. Where are the spotlights, or any lighting options ? why is it so dark in my high tech factory ?
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Jul 15, 2020 15:09
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PHOOsun posted:
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Jul 15, 2020 15:23
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