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dex_sda posted:That's fair for the very beginning of the war, but not by the end of 1940. Indeed, were it not for Barbarossa, Soviets would have waited even longer to get involved. No one in this thread is arguing the Soviet Union didn't make mistakes, but molotov-ribbentrop wasn't one of them. Virtually every military leader in the USSR figured that war with Germany was inevitable but delaying said war for as long as possible would mean the USSR would be in a stronger position. The calculation payed off, the USSR demonstrably destroyed the Reich. The idea that the USSR could have liberated Poland in 1939 is dubious, moreover it was a huge risk to the actual people living in the USSR. Granted the Holocaust was happening during this build up but that didn't mean the Soviets were in a position to stop it. If poo poo didn't go the Soviets way than congratulations, the entirety of eastern Europe experiences a genocide that dwarfs the Holocaust by several orders of magnitude. In this alternate timeline we'd presumably be arguing about why the USSR was so stupid as to challenge Germany in 1939 over the fate of Poland, a state that also opposed the USSR.
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Jul 15, 2020 18:07
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Dreddout posted:No one in this thread is arguing the Soviet Union didn't make mistakes, but molotov-ribbentrop wasn't one of them. Virtually every military leader in the USSR figured that war with Germany was inevitable but delaying said war for as long as possible would mean the USSR would be in a stronger position. The calculation payed off, the USSR demonstrably destroyed the Reich. That's fair and it's why I don't claim it was the biggest mistake or anything. Maybe my characterisation as a war crime is harsh, though I also don't find a lesser moniker that's more adequate. But I think there was a universe where this deal was not signed that worked out properly (I think the USSR would have had the time anyway), so I still object to the kind of complete whitewashing when it was a deal with the devil Stalin and his leadership signed because they benefitted from it. Part of that belief of mine may stem from the fact that Poland was then taken by Stalin in the Yalta Conference. This perception of a land grab and the actual post-war oppression combined with the perceptions of signing of the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact mean that now, socialism is dead on arrival in Poland thanks to ready-to-order propaganda and the political window is crazily moved to the right. I feel it objectively hurt the cause at least here for a very long term, and not being able to acknowledge the problem is a complete non-starter in my experience even among radicals. It's one of the reasons Poland had such a dramatic political whiplash after the USSR fell.
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Jul 15, 2020 18:28
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Dreddout posted:No one in this thread is arguing the Soviet Union didn't make mistakes, but molotov-ribbentrop wasn't one of them. Virtually every military leader in the USSR figured that war with Germany was inevitable but delaying said war for as long as possible would mean the USSR would be in a stronger position. The calculation payed off, the USSR demonstrably destroyed the Reich. Delaying the war until after France had fallen was insane and cost millions of Soviet lives
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Jul 15, 2020 18:48
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LittleBlackCloud posted:I also see "War Crime" being thrown around a lot, which--forgive me--is somewhat of an arbitrary concept. Wars are full of awful, horrendous crimes. Charges of "war crimes" are something the winners of wars levy against the losers, not a divine reckoning. The concepts of justice you're invoking are liberal figments. They don't exist. Charges of murder may only be brought by the bourgeois apparatus against members of the working class, that doesn't mean the idea of murder as a crime is liberal.
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Jul 15, 2020 18:52
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Enjoy posted:Delaying the war until after France had fallen was insane and cost millions of Soviet lives No one actually expected France to fold that quickly, if anything, the time would have been right after the German offensive slowed down and Germany was in a vulnerable position. Instead, France folded like a wet paper sack before anything could happen, which shocked everyone. dex_sda posted:That's fair and it's why I don't claim it was the biggest mistake or anything. Maybe my characterisation as a war crime is harsh, though I also don't find a lesser moniker that's more adequate. But I think there was a universe where this deal was not signed that worked out properly (I think the USSR would have had the time anyway), so I still object to the kind of complete whitewashing when it was a deal with the devil Stalin and his leadership signed because they benefitted from it. If Poland had stayed a Western-aligned White state, would it have turned to socialism either? It wasn't like Poland was moving toward social democracy until 1939. If anything one thing I always noticed about Poland was just how right-wing most of its politics were and still are and large part of that is a blind-side toward how corrosive the Polish aristocracy has been to do the country. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Jul 15, 2020 |
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Jul 15, 2020 19:07
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Enjoy posted:Delaying the war until after France had fallen was insane and cost millions of Soviet lives yeah i'm sure a lot of people in mid 1939 figured "oh i guess france will just roll over and die in 6 weeks about a year from now" e;fb
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Jul 15, 2020 19:09
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Ardennes posted:No one actually expected France to fold that quickly, if anything, the time would have been right after the German offensive slowed down and Germany was in a vulnerable position. Instead, France folded like a wet paper sack before anything could happen, which shocked everyone. Firstly, Germany was sending troops from one side of Europe to another for months after the fall of Poland. The entire time from October 1939 to July 1940 was good time to attack Germany. Secondly, even looking just at the Battle of France, 6 weeks is a long time for military manoeuvres:  The Soviets could have been in Berlin before 6 weeks were up if they'd hit Germany when Fall Gelb began.
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Jul 15, 2020 19:20
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It’s weird none of the Trotskyist countries invaded
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Jul 15, 2020 19:21
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lmao @ buying victims of communism apologia and armchair quarterbacking the soviet union defeating the invading nazi hordes who murdered over 10% of the soviet population in a war of fascist aggression
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Jul 15, 2020 19:22
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The biggest mistake the soviets made early on was shooting or locking up guys like GS Isserson and Tukachevsky
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Jul 15, 2020 19:25
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Enjoy posted:Firstly, Germany was sending troops from one side of Europe to another for months after the fall of Poland. The entire time from October 1939 to July 1940 was good time to attack Germany. lol
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Jul 15, 2020 19:26
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Enjoy posted:Firstly, Germany was sending troops from one side of Europe to another for months after the fall of Poland. The entire time from October 1939 to July 1940 was good time to attack Germany. 1. Attacking Germany out of the blue would have been an extremely poor decision as long as the Western allies were around. The Soviet Union distrusted the West as the West distrusted it. 2. Barbarossa isn't applicable here 3. The Soviets honestly expected the allies to sell them out and would likely have simply have signed a peace treaty with Germany if Soviet forces had made serious inroads and "let the Germans wipe those accursed communists from the earth." A bunch of posts ITT have come from this weird position that it is okay for other countries to distrust the USSR but not for the USSR to do the same to them.
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Jul 15, 2020 19:33
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Enjoy posted:Firstly, Germany was sending troops from one side of Europe to another for months after the fall of Poland. The entire time from October 1939 to July 1940 was good time to attack Germany. the first signing a non-aggression pact with the nazis the second stabbing a key strategic ally in the back while breaking a signed pact
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Jul 15, 2020 19:33
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dex_sda posted:That's fair and it's why I don't claim it was the biggest mistake or anything. Maybe my characterisation as a war crime is harsh, though I also don't find a lesser moniker that's more adequate. But I think there was a universe where this deal was not signed that worked out properly (I think the USSR would have had the time anyway), so I still object to the kind of complete whitewashing when it was a deal with the devil Stalin and his leadership signed because they benefitted from it. There was never a point in the second republic where there were not anti-Jewish pogroms being organized by the state, and the anti-semitic laws drafted by the sejm in the 20s and 30s were second only to the nazis in severity and cruelty with a decade head start. The opportunity to shift the overton window left on Poland was in 1905, not 1939, regardless of what went down at Berlin or Yalta. The drift back into fascism that Poland is now experiencing is not proof that the USSR killed Polish socialism with a decree, it is proof that Polish communists were unable to actually curtail the revanchist through-line in the national identity and merely managed to temporarily suppress it when they had the reigns. Not to imply that the Soviet handling of the People's Republic was perfect, or even particularly good, but the failure of the Polish project isn't something that can be explained simply with a single instigation in the 40s. At least in my own worthless opinion. Enjoy posted:Firstly, Germany was sending troops from one side of Europe to another for months after the fall of Poland. The entire time from October 1939 to July 1940 was good time to attack Germany. Were the Soviets even capable of launching an offensive in 1940? They were in the middle of a complete overhaul of every aspect of their war machine - new rifles, new uniforms, new tanks, new trucks, new helmets, and (iirc) a completely new command structure were still in the middle of being ironed out. I doubt the chronic shortage of things like radios and ammunition that plagued the defense and counter-offensives of 41 would be any better when they had even less of them and also nobody had boots.
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Jul 15, 2020 19:35
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Ardennes posted:1. Attacking Germany out of the blue would have been an extremely poor decision Ardennes posted:3. The Soviets honestly expected the allies to sell them out Yeah Stalin compounded error upon error and millions of Soviet citizens paid the price for it
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Jul 15, 2020 19:36
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If I recall correctly, one of the biggest problems that Germany had invading the USSR was that they did not have the logistical capacity - primarily in truck availability - to sustain such a large push for an extended period, but committed to the invasion anyway out of hubris believing they could conquer the Soviets in less than a year. By comparison, much of the USSR’s logistical capacity was aided by trucks and trains leased or sold to them by the Western allies. I don’t see how they would’ve had the logistical ability to sustain an invasion of Germany in 1939.
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Jul 15, 2020 19:36
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Malleum posted:Were the Soviets even capable of launching an offensive in 1940? They were in the middle of a complete overhaul of every aspect of their war machine - new rifles, new uniforms, new tanks, new trucks, new helmets, and (iirc) a completely new command structure were still in the middle of being ironed out. I doubt the chronic shortage of things like radios and ammunition that plagued the defense and counter-offensives of 41 would be any better when they had even less of them and also nobody had boots. It's true that Stalin's decision to purge his military damaged its effectiveness, another error he made
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Jul 15, 2020 19:37
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Lightning Knight posted:If I recall correctly, one of the biggest problems that Germany had invading the USSR was that they did not have the logistical capacity - primarily in truck availability - to sustain such a large push for an extended period, but committed to the invasion anyway out of hubris believing they could conquer the Soviets in less than a year. They required those trucks because infrastructure in the USSR was bad. It was good in Germany and Poland, which is why Blitzkrieg worked there
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Jul 15, 2020 19:38
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Enjoy posted:They required those trucks because infrastructure in the USSR was bad. It was good in Germany and Poland, which is why Blitzkrieg worked there How does that change the point? Armies do not simply teleport from the border of one country to another and marching soldiers from Russia to Germany is a pretty huge distance to be moving even the initial armies, let alone consistently supplying said armies. War is about logistics more than it is about soldiers.
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Jul 15, 2020 19:39
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I cant believe those lazy communists didnt do more to stop the nazis, smh
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Jul 15, 2020 19:39
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Enjoy posted:Actually it would have saved millions of Soviet lives and therefore would have been a good decision Even though it doesn't make any sense considering the period. Stalin had ever reason to expect the allies to sell him out (and they eventually did). quote:Yeah Stalin compounded error upon error and millions of Soviet citizens paid the price for it Let me guess you are going to use that line for pretty much everything without context. Malleum posted:There was never a point in the second republic where there were not anti-Jewish pogroms being organized by the state, and the anti-semitic laws drafted by the sejm in the 20s and 30s were second only to the nazis in severity and cruelty with a decade head start. The opportunity to shift the overton window left on Poland was in 1905, not 1939, regardless of what went down at Berlin or Yalta. The drift back into fascism that Poland is now experiencing is not proof that the USSR killed Polish socialism with a decree, it is proof that Polish communists were unable to actually curtail the revanchist through-line in the national identity and merely managed to temporarily suppress it when they had the reigns. I would say the issue goes all the way back to Poland-Lithuania and the continued influence of Magnates into the Tsarist period. quote:The more radical elements severely criticized the government not only for its inactivity, but also for its lack of land reform and its failure to recognize the peasants' rights to the soil they tilled, but the Sejm, fearing that the governments of Europe might regard the war with Russia as social revolution, procrastinated and haggled over concessions.[9] The initial enthusiasm of the peasantry waned, and the ineptitude of the government became more apparent. (Regarding the 1830 Rebellion) It basically sums up most of Polish history. Magnates (or simply the rich) wipe up everyday Poles in the name of national salvation and then promptly gently caress them over every single time. It is still that way today. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Jul 15, 2020 |
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Jul 15, 2020 19:40
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Lightning Knight posted:How does that change the point? Armies do not simply teleport from the border of one country to another and marching soldiers from Russia to Germany is a pretty huge distance to be moving even the initial armies, let alone consistently supplying said armies. War is about logistics more than it is about soldiers. You know most of the German army was still using horses during Barbarossa? Germans were not supermen, despite what Ardennes wants you to think. Anything a German soldier did, a Russian could have done.
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Jul 15, 2020 19:43
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Malleum posted:There was never a point in the second republic where there were not anti-Jewish pogroms being organized by the state, and the anti-semitic laws drafted by the sejm in the 20s and 30s were second only to the nazis in severity and cruelty with a decade head start. The opportunity to shift the overton window left on Poland was in 1905, not 1939, regardless of what went down at Berlin or Yalta. The drift back into fascism that Poland is now experiencing is not proof that the USSR killed Polish socialism with a decree, it is proof that Polish communists were unable to actually curtail the revanchist through-line in the national identity and merely managed to temporarily suppress it when they had the reigns. Oh no, but it didn't (and doesn't) help.
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Jul 15, 2020 19:44
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Enjoy posted:You know most of the German army was still using horses during Barbarossa? I don’t see your point - the Germans were using horses and their lack of proper logistical backing resulted in their invasion being a disaster. I’m not saying that it was some lack of ability, it’s a simple matter of supply and demand. You cannot fight a war if your soldiers do not have bullets, bombs, and food - not to mention shoes. A hypothetical Soviet invasion of Nazi Germany in 1939 isn’t going to be able to sustain itself, and that’s ignoring that there’s other countries in between!
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Jul 15, 2020 19:45
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I will pray to all gods in the hopes that they erase the concept of Poland from all human minds
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Jul 15, 2020 19:46
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Tired: using the nicely paved and immaculately maintained autobahn to move mans around the country like a bunch of fuccbois Wired: 
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Jul 15, 2020 19:46
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my high school teachers trotted out the molotov–ribbentrop pact as why the soviet union was evil and made a deal with hitler and the soviet union was in fact surprised when hitler broke the non-aggression pact just lmao @ not being able to grow out of that thinking. indoctrination is a helluva drug
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Jul 15, 2020 19:48
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Victory Position posted:I will pray to all gods in the hopes that they erase the concept of Poland from all human minds Last time I was in Warsaw, I was pretty shocked about how exhausted people looked and the state of the city outside the historical center. I mean, Poland has been in the EU for 16 years and has had constant economic growth, what happened? As far as if I think "Germans are supermen" no, but my point was obvious anyway, Stalin didn't have the army or the opening (from his perspective) to make it work. It was not an issue of trucks either but that the Red Army was in a transition phase that really wouldn't be solved until 1943. If anything the Soviet had assumed a war with the "fascists" could wait as the Western allies and Germany bled each other dry. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Jul 15, 2020 |
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Jul 15, 2020 19:49
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look at the death toll of the soviets from the nazi invasion next time you bleat out about the molotov–ribbentrop pact you moron. seriously
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Jul 15, 2020 19:50
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Lightning Knight posted:I don’t see your point - the Germans were using horses and their lack of proper logistical backing resulted in their invasion being a disaster. The Germans were using horses and they got from the German-Soviet border to Leningrad in 6 weeks. If the Soviets had attacked at the opening of Fall Gelb, that distance would have brought them to Berlin. And the German army would still have been inside France. Enjoy fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Jul 15, 2020 |
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Jul 15, 2020 19:51
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comedyblissoption posted:look at the death toll of the soviets from the nazi invasion next time you bleat out about the molotov–ribbentrop pact you moron. seriously Usually, when lots of people die, the leadership is seen as more culpable, not less
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Jul 15, 2020 19:55
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Enjoy posted:Usually, when lots of people die, the leadership is seen as more culpable, not less So you are saying the deaths of Soviet citizens at the hand of the Germans was really just Stalin's fault.
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Jul 15, 2020 19:57
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Enjoy posted:The Germans were using horses and they got from the German-Soviet border to Leningrad in 6 weeks. Perhaps, but again, getting your army into enemy territory is just the first step. You then have to actually keep them supplied with weapons and rations to actually fight. You’re also assuming there would be no civil resistance, reserve armies, etc. to contend with. Like if you want to argue that the Soviet Union was morally obligated to invade Germany when they invaded France that’s one thing but I don’t think you’ve laid out how they could have sustained that military action in practice.
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Jul 15, 2020 20:00
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Ardennes posted:Last time I was in Warsaw, I was pretty shocked about how exhausted people looked and the state of the city outside the historical center. I mean, Poland has been in the EU for 16 years and has had constant economic growth, what happened? I get the feeling that the EU has had its fill of cheap migrant labor and is contracting having made an overreliance on it to shore up manufacturing in Germany and Czechia that being said, I feel like my eyes are going compound because all I can see is hex chat
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Jul 15, 2020 20:15
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Enjoy posted:The Germans were using horses and they got from the German-Soviet border to Leningrad in 6 weeks. In 1940 the French and British came within a hair's breadth of attacking the Soviet Union while at war with Germany as it was, in the scenario you outline, they would have the best possible leverage to offer peace and anti-Soviet cooperation. The Soviets could have very easily found themselves facing a united western Europe, and simply having occupied Berlin would not be a great deal of help in that scenario.
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Jul 15, 2020 20:24
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Lightning Knight posted:Like if you want to argue that the Soviet Union was morally obligated to invade Germany when they invaded France that’s one thing but I don’t think you’ve laid out how they could have sustained that military action in practice. look dude i played hoi4 as ussr several times and there's just no scenario where ussr doesn't hold the entire world by 1941 if the leader is competent 
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Jul 15, 2020 20:26
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Pomeroy posted:In 1940 the French and British came within a hair's breadth of attacking the Soviet Union while at war with Germany as it was, in the scenario you outline, they would have the best possible leverage to offer peace and anti-Soviet cooperation. The Soviets could have very easily found themselves facing a united western Europe, and simply having occupied Berlin would not be a great deal of help in that scenario. Counterpoint: the genocide campaign of the Nazis would not have happened
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Jul 15, 2020 20:28
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Truga posted:look dude i played hoi4 as ussr several times and there's just no scenario where ussr doesn't hold the entire world by 1941 if the leader is competent I am reminded of discussions of Operation Sea Lion, where the question is not “could the Germans have defeated Britain” but “how could they possibly have got over to Britain to start?”
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Jul 15, 2020 20:43
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Ardennes posted:So you are saying the deaths of Soviet citizens at the hand of the Germans was really just Stalin's fault. brb updating the victims of communism list
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Jul 15, 2020 20:52
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Enjoy posted:Counterpoint: the genocide campaign of the Nazis would not have happened why wouldn't it have? it's not like the other european powers cared
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Jul 15, 2020 20:55
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